I'm going on my 1st Mexico dove shoot in February and need to commit to what gun to bring along. My choices are an old but decent shape Remington Model 11-48 in 20ga. or a new Remington 11-87 in 12ga.

My preference is the 20ga. since it is lightweight and a favorite from my younger years dove hunting. My concern is that I've heard these hunts can be hard on a shotgun at up to 500 rounds per day.

Is anyone familiar with the 11-48? It is a spring loaded automatic with copper bushing, like an A-5. Will it hold up? Or should I go with the new 11-87? I obviously don't want to destroy the old gun, or be without on my hunt.

Thanks for your help.

Brian

At 500 rounds a day you are going to have serious problems with both those guns, Buy a Beretta 391 or a Benelli super 90 or SBE, Maybe a Bennelli Cordoba I don´t know for sure about that one though as I have not seen enough of them going over 20,000 rounds to tell you for sure yet. They are probably going to be good though. When you are looking at this:



after a days shooting, you don´t want a Remington semi auto.

Thanks John. It seems I may be out of my league when it comes to serious dove shooting. 200 rounds a day may be more realistic - this is Mexico, not Argentina. Either way, I'm just going to have some fun.

You listed a few modern autoloaders. What is the most popular or effective style of shotgun for this type of hunt?

Almost all of the camps that provide guns for shooters buy Beretta autos or Bennelli autos. Usually you will see a mix of both. Your Remington won't get destroyed by 500 rounds but at some point it will get dirty and start jamming. When that happens will depend on the quality of shells your camp has. Even US shells can be dirty enough. If the goal is to go have a good time, shoot a little and the hell with the bird count don't worry, the 20 will be fine. Even in Mexico a 12 will start to fatigue you, just from mounting the gun; much less the additional recoil. (That assumes you don't work out specifically to improve gun mounting.)

If you want to end up with bragging rights on the number of birds or don't want to stop and clean periodically then you need something less sensitive to powder fouling.

If you want an idea of the physical side of the challenge, go into a quiet room, double and triple check your gun to make sure it's clear and then spend exactly one hour mounting and dismounting your chosen shotgun continuously. You don't need to snap the triggers but mentally go "Bang" at the ceiling light and lower the gun each time and repeat. Amazing how tired you can get whan you do something new to your muscles like that.

Of course, if you shoot a lot of trap, skeet or clays I just wasted a lot of your time on stuff you already knew and sorry 'bout that.

Have you already completed all your paperwork to take your own gun? If you haven't paid all the fees yet, I'd borrow/rent a gun from the lodge. There is a reason most of the lodges whether they be in Mexico or Argentina or wherever don't loan out Remingtons. Benelli and Berreta just have better reputations for taking punishment. This coming from someone who has an 870 and an 11-87. If you have paid the fees and are committed to taking your own gun, I'd go with the 11-87. Shoot light loads and a couple hundred rounds a day shouldn't affect you or the gun.

NoCAL

dI hate to bust your ballon guys, but the last time I was in Paraguay, my fourth trip down, The only guns that failed were the gas guns, Beretta, 1100's and most of all the Bennelli. I told the guy before we started he would have trouble but he didn't believe me. He did; after the first morning's shoot. I shot a pair of Browning O/U 20's and in over 100 boxes of shells, they never missed a beat, not once, and they did get hot. The same was true for the guys shooting the 21's. Funny thing, I have a Bennelli 20ga in the shop now that won't function. I don't relly care to hear about it, but if you got a Bennelli, eventually it will give you trouble. JMHO

The Bennelli I shoot ain't a gas gun, Jim. But I can't say there's anything more reliable than a good double. I did see a guy ruin a nice Berretta Silver Pidgeon by not cleaning and lubricating the trunions in the dust. I suppose if you abuse any gun its gonna let you down.

Without the bird boy reloading you can fire a double about as fast as a semi. The semi will get your fingers bleeding from loading and the double won´t. A 12 will not tire you more than a 20 if you use light loads, the recoil is what you should worry about more than the gun mounting. It is not at all uncommon for shooters to get a bleeding hole in there shoulder from it. In my opinion the Beretta 391 is the best gun for high volume, it has good feel and balance and light recoil because it is a gas operated gun (the other 2 mentioned are blowback). There is really no gun that is more effective than another. The semis are the nost popular but not by as big a margin as you might think. Many use doubles. O/U is the double to use, S/S are NOT apropriate for high volume.
200 rounds a day is not high volume and none of this really matters if you are not shooting at least 500/day.

I have shot Rem 11=48 in Mexico and 5 trips to Argentina with Beretas and Benellis. If you shoot a Rem you better be ready to clean after each shoot.The Benelli is the best. Will shoot at least 5000 rounds between cleanings, Berreta is almost the same. (All are automatics)

quote:

Originally posted by JohnAir:
Without the bird boy reloading you can fire a double about as fast as a semi. The semi will get your fingers bleeding from loading and the double won´t. A 12 will not tire you more than a 20 if you use light loads, the recoil is what you should worry about more than the gun mounting. It is not at all uncommon for shooters to get a bleeding hole in there shoulder from it. In my opinion the Beretta 391 is the best gun for high volume, it has good feel and balance and light recoil because it is a gas operated gun (the other 2 mentioned are blowback). There is really no gun that is more effective than another. The semis are the nost popular but not by as big a margin as you might think. Many use doubles. O/U is the double to use, S/S are NOT apropriate for high volume.
200 rounds a day is not high volume and none of this really matters if you are not shooting at least 500/day.

Can't argue except that when it's 1000-1250 rounds in a day, most of us in their 50s ought to do some exercise related to mounting before the trip unless you have some other activity that takes care of it.

In Mexico the bird limits won't let you shoot anywhere near that many rounds a day so it won't matter there.

quote:

Can't argue except that when it's 1000-1250 rounds in a day, most of us in their 50s ought to do some exercise related to mounting before the trip unless you have some other activity that takes care of it.

I´ll bet you are right. Also I probably don´t realize just how painfull it can be because my arms are accustomed, but even at age 40 I notice that when I do some kind of physical activity that is out of the ordinary for me it hurts the next day and even worse the day after that.

quote:

The Benelli is the best. Will shoot at least 5000 rounds between cleanings, Berreta is almost the same.

I´ve never seen one go that many without starting to jam up but it could be the difference in shells. The Benelli is definitely the one that goes the longest between cleanuings and it is also very easy to clean. The gas cylinder on the Beretta is a B..tch to get clean quickly in the field.

Mainly you just get so arm-weary your score starts to go to shits. It ain't fun if you ain't hittin. A combination of push-ups and arm lifts works too.

In this world there are two types of shotguns. Those with 2 barrels (preferably side by side) and all the rest.

quote:

Originally posted by tiggertate:
The Bennelli I shoot ain't a gas gun, Jim. But I can't say there's anything more reliable than a good double. I did see a guy ruin a nice Berretta Silver Pidgeon by not cleaning and lubricating the trunions in the dust. I suppose if you abuse any gun its gonna let you down.

My refernce to the gas guns comment was it is a generic term I use for a semi-auto.

How about a nice O/U 28g ejector with 30" barrel's or bettter still 32" t osteady you up when the arms get tired...

Thinking of one for my trip in May.

Rgds,

P.S.
Tigger,
Being from texas and having the avatar that you do, I would have thought you could come up with something better than just plain old pushups.

Maybe a pushup variation that involves the young lady in the avatar?

28g. I love it!!

quote:

Originally posted by JohnAir:


P.S.
Tigger,
Being from texas and having the avatar that you do, I would have thought you could come up with something better than just plain old pushups.

Maybe a pushup variation that involves the young lady in the avatar?

Yeah and it wouldn't be the shoulder all blistered up, LOL. And I can't hold gun just 'cause I got good pelvic tone.

Jim, there used to be some Benneli branded gas guns. I sorta figured out what you meant the next day but it was already up. Sorry 'bout that.

I think that if I were to buy a new shotgun for heavy shooting, I would go with an A391.


Take care,

Tom

I use brownings ,benellis ,berettas and remingtons in that order .THE BEST BENELLI CORDOBA.JUAN

Don't remember who it was, but the comment that "500 doves a day is not high volume shooting". I take exception to that, I submit that it is if you only hit 500 with a success ration of 6 or 8 to ONE dove killed!

Regardless, that picture of the bruise looked like mine. How did you get that picture of me? I still have a scar from that one.

Juan, how about sending me a brochure?

quote:

Originally posted by JohnAir:

Nice tattoo!

The guys I hunt with in South Texas had a competition in Argentina the last two days.

Top gun was 493/500 that afternoon, second place was 490/500. I think the worst shot was around 350/500. I am a true 100/500 shooter myself.

Of course, they were taking easy shots but there are so many birds you can pick your shots and still shoot all you can stand. The winner was shooting a Siver Pigeon 28 ga, BTW.

But then these guys shoot live pigeons all year. That will make you appreciate how easy a dove can be to hit.

tiggertate or John, what is the cost of 28 ga ammo in Argentina? Is there a big price differential?

Chic,
5 dollars and change at the gun shops and 9-12 from an outfitter.

P.S.
I love your work!

That jives with what we found. Our guys paid $7.50 a box US at the camp but that was negotiated ahead of time based on a group buy with a minimum. But some outfitters need to know ahead of time to bring in a supply of 28 ga. I think shells in general will continue to go higher. It seems more and more want apiece of that particular pie. And I bet $7.50 won't fly in 2006 or 2007.

Same in Mexico. Hunting's reasonable but they'll nail you for $12 a box US for shells. And don't smuggle them in unless 40 years in a Mexican jail seem a reasonable risk for a $1000 shell bill.

I haven't seen anyone charge a premiuim for 28 ga. but 410 can be another story. The best way to go to Argentina is in a group of 7-10 and work the deal as hard as you can. One guy don't stand a chance of influencing published rates. Look for the off season too.

Last, dedicated dove hunts can be a little cheaper than combination hunts that include waterfowl or big game.

This is what you look like 6 hours out of 10:




This was a little afternoon competition:




I cry when I see these because could have gone this year but didn't. I won't make that mistake twice.

I'm not sure where you're hunting in Feb in Mexico for doves, but I assume it is on the west coast. I hunted doves and ducks out of Matzatlan quite a few years back. It was fun shooting doves among the palm trees, but the volume of shooting was quite low. Most good dove hunts in the states offer more. Obviously your location or conditions may have changed, but based on what I saw, it would better be described as low volume, not high.

One of the best shotguns for hi vol dove work (and everything else) in my opinion is a Winchester 101 over and under with IC/IM choke tubes in it. It is heavy enough to swing well and to help absorb recoil. Of course, a VERY good recoil pad and maybe one on your shirt as well if you're not used to shooting is essential.

John,
Thank you for the nice comment.

Do the outfitters frown on their clients bringing their own ammo from local gun stores? I am assuming that the mark up is part of their income and if it continued, they would have to increase the daily rates.

I have been talking to some friends here about such a trip and trying to drum up some interest.

Chic,
This will be a long and probably confusing answer so bear with me:
New legislation in Argentina has made it impossible for foreigners to buy shells because it now requires a munitions consumption card to go with their firearms card that is issued once you have a firearms owner license. This card would then allow you to buy up to 2500 rounds which still may not be enough. The basis for all these cards is the firearms license and for that you need to reside in Argentina. The temporary firearms introduction permit that you use to bring your guns into Argentina is no good for any of the above.
Outfitters need a special volume munitions consumption permit issued by the ministry of defence and must comply with a long list if pre requsites including having a bunker in which to store the ammunition.

But even before all of this when foreigners COULD just walk into a store and buy the shells it was not practical for a group of them to do so. A group of 5 shooters shooting for 4 days would have to travel with aproximately 600 kilos of shells from wherever they purchased them to wherever their outfitter would meet them. Add to this that the outfitters DO consider the shells to be a part of there expected income on a hunt and also a way of guaranteeing that they will provide high volume shooting, it is in their best interest. In most provinces a foreigner can no longer hunt without a registered outfitter. There are still some places in the north where you could hunt without an outfitter or guide and the huntng license costs 7 dollars and lasts for months. This will surely not last much longer. There is so much to tell here that I really don´t know where to start and finish.

John, that makes very good sense. I did not intend to buy ammo, I was just thrown a bit by the inclusion as if it was an option. The rest of the problems and regulations make it a non issue.

Take a gas operated gun. I do a lot of shooting in the same region. My beretta al 391 and browning b-80 have worked well. Also kept cummulative recoil bearable. Enjoy your trip.

quote:

Originally posted by btglfer:
I'm going on my 1st Mexico dove shoot in February and need to commit to what gun to bring along. My choices are an old but decent shape Remington Model 11-48 in 20ga. or a new Remington 11-87 in 12ga.

My preference is the 20ga. since it is lightweight and a favorite from my younger years dove hunting. My concern is that I've heard these hunts can be hard on a shotgun at up to 500 rounds per day.

Is anyone familiar with the 11-48? It is a spring loaded automatic with copper bushing, like an A-5. Will it hold up? Or should I go with the new 11-87? I obviously don't want to destroy the old gun, or be without on my hunt.

Thanks for your help.

Brian

In 1988 two friends and I went down to shoot. At the time I was exporting the shotshells to
Argentina for Trek International and others.
We took 8 guns between us. two of the guns were 11-48 28 gauges. We only shoot 28's and 20's, 3 Rems 1100 20's, one 28 gauge 870, I Win 101 three barrel set and and one SKB 20. The user of the 1100's spent a lot of his time cleaning the guns in the field, The 11-48 froze up when they got hot as did the 870 28. The SKB broke and I loaned my 101 to my friend and he broke the firing pin. A lot gun problems, but we still managed to kill 8408 doves in three days.
All my following trips I carred a set of 101 three barrel sets and fitted spares and never had any more problems.
In 1989 I shot my personal best of 1740 doves in two days with 3524 shells. All 28 gauge skeet 9's. Now I shoot for high average and difficult shots. You can not learn to be a good wing shoot in the States. You just can not get enough pratice with a 12 dove limit per day.
It is a hell of a place, but damn I love it. The people there, outside of BA are super and I have spent my most memorable experiences have been there.
If you want more info just email me on the side and I will do what I can to help
Jack

As i told before the best is benelli cordoba ,the ill choose a browning i use 24 grs shells but a 20 is adecuated too .Juan

How well do doubles hold out for extended high volume shooting? a couple of hunded shots a day is max here for a combined dove, francolin shoot. But...Our wing shooting is getting better and I am thinking of picking up an extra shotgun for clients to use. Browning Citori or a couple of variety of Barreta seem to be the most durable? is this a correct impression?

Normally shoot 32 gram 6's or 7's

quote:

Originally posted by Don Heath:
How well do doubles hold out for extended high volume shooting? a couple of hunded shots a day is max here for a combined dove, francolin shoot. But...Our wing shooting is getting better and I am thinking of picking up an extra shotgun for clients to use. Browning Citori or a couple of variety of Barreta seem to be the most durable? is this a correct impression?

Normally shoot 32 gram 6's or 7's

Don,

I've used several Berettas (in both SxS and O/U), and they seem to me like they're built to last.

You know fellas, If you plan on spending a good amount of money and time on a SA dove or pigeon shoot, why wouldn't you want to take your favorite gun instead of some POS??? I mean, half the fun is shooting your favorite toy. I just wish it possible to take my dog also.

You can't go wrong with two GOOD 20ga O/U's.

quote:

Originally posted by Jim Kobe:
You know fellas, If you plan on spending a good amount of money and time on a SA dove or pigeon shoot, why wouldn't you want to take your favorite gun instead of some POS??? I mean, half the fun is shooting your favorite toy. I just wish it possible to take my dog also.

You can't go wrong with two GOOD 20ga O/U's.

Jim,
I agree. After busting up all of the auto and pumps I only take my matched three barrel sets and when possible I only shoot 28 gauge. At the time since I was shipping all the ammo down I never wanted for 28's. In fact, I still have some down there with a friend. For the high volumne shooting you are nuts to take anything bigger than a 20 ga. The idea is to have fun and not beat your self to death. The last time I shoot in ARG my friend (the outfitter) and I would pick a good spot in a pigeon field and I would shoot until I missed and then he would shoot until he missed. We had a great morning and the pigeons flew like mad. I LOVE PIGEON SHOOTING BETTER THAN DUCKS. They decoy better and you don't have to get wet. Hell once you get a couple down and stick sticks up their butt you have all the decoys you will need. Pigeons with a 28 gauge are very sporty. I had Briley screw in chokes in both the 20 and 28 barrels and used full choke in both barrels. You either ball them or they walk. The Pigeons in ARG are bigger than Teal. Great shooting

I shoot a Benelli Cordoba & have been very pleased with the gun in all aspects (shooting, cleaning, handle & feel). I've never had mine jam but there again I've never shot 1000 shells through it at a sitting.

There are a lot of Benelli's out there! Just like the cigarette packages carry a warning about cancer, Bennelli's should carry a similar warning:

If you own a Bennelli, you may not have trouble with it now, But, YOU WILL