Hey everyone

My old T/C Thunderhawk S/S inline has served me well, over the last few years, but I'm planning on buying a new inline with the 209 primer capability this year in a S/S barrel.

Of all I have looked at I really like the Savage, lets see dual pillar bedded great, smokeless powder wonderfull, accu-trigger down to 2-1/2 pounds nice.

I would like some feedback from those that have put some rounds through one and what kind of grouping, dislikes, problems, etc.

Thanks for any info
John TN.

I'm interested in the same information. I would like to know how much trouble cleaning the bolt is. I have seen a lot of comments on bolt rifles that the bolt needs to be diassembled to clean properly. I am especially interested in someone that shoots synthetic black or some kind not smokeless because in Arizona we cannot use smokeless so I would be using either APP or Black Mag3.

I got a Savage ML10 11 last summer to replace a unreliable TC Renegade.

I am not a ML enthusiast and have one only to add a season and get more tags.

The ML 10 has been 100% reliable. Not only is it accurate but it stays sighted in. I like it very much. Now I will list the negatives but don't take this wrong and I am keeping mine.

The rifle is very heavy, the bullets are also hard but not impossible to seat but you have to like it when it keeps hitting right on.

There is a breech plug that has a removable jet in it and they mention cleaning every 40 shots. You must use an anti seize grease on their threads.

I am shooting the 250 gr Hornady SST at 1975 fps using the standard factory suggested load.

T

What is the "standard factory suggested load"? Is it smokeless or black synthetic? How about cleaning the bolt? Do you have the new longer life vent liner? How long does the old style vent liner last with synthetic black powders? How long with smokeless? What is the cost of vent liners both old style and new style? What is the availability of the new long life vent liner? That is all I can think of at this time.

Thanks for the info 99

Hopefully others will post as well, I know a lot of people have bought them.

I had a T/C renagade as well was good gun but you had to keep it clean and even the inlines need to be kept clean if your not shooting smokeless.

How would someone know if your'e shooting smokeless or synthetic when you're in the field seems like a silly law being that an inline even with synthetic or equivilent is just as accurate and we have used triple 7 with great results out to 150 to 200 yds, not groups that are what you are used to with a good bolt action but very acceptable for hunting.

First off the savage is one of the top end muzzleloaders whether shooting smokeless or black or subs.I have had 3 and still have 2.The first one shot clean shot and pyro as good as the smokless powder.The 2 I have now I only shoot smokeless in.The load I shoot in both get me 2450 fps and have shot some 3 inch groups at 300 and less than an inch at 200,and lots of one hole groups at 100 using different bullets and powder.
The first one I had I sold it to my brother and he has had it for 2 yrs now and the bolt has never been taken apart and it still shoots as good as it ever did.
I shoot the sst or sw bullets in mine and they are all you need for hunting,took one this past season @234 yds,65yds and 48 yds.
I have an encore and a ruger and they will shoot one hole groups@100 but I like the savage because it shoots tight at longer yardages and don't have to worry about cleaning it afterwards.
I hang out at a gun shop and word got out how well I have gotten my savages to shoot so I get calls alot about helping someone set up their new savage,got one set up for this coming monday if weather permits.The last 2 yrs I have helped several people set up theirs and so far every one of them has shot at least one 3-shot,one hole group with theirs.One fellow didn't get a one holer on the first time out but he thought he didn't need to weigh each load for accuracy,well he called about 3 days later and said guess what I shot a one hole group,I said yes you weighed your loads didn't you.YEP.

I love my ML10II.

I've had several MLers and none of them were as easy, accurate, and reliable as this ML10II is.

It took quite a bit of load combos to find out what she liked the most but, W/ the help of the guys on the Savage Muzzleloading Message Board, I got her printing bug hole groups w/ no problems.

I don't think that cleaning the bolt should be a concern because this bolt and breech plug system is different from other systems where you have alot of "blow back." The primer inserts into the bolt itself and then is pressed into the breech plug when you close the bolt which, makes a tight seal that prevents moisture and prevents blow by. If you did want to clean it, it would be just like cleaning a Savage centerfire bolt.

Instead of a nipple you have the ventliner which is on the reverse side of the breech plug. These liners will wear out if using smokeless powder but, I usually get 40-50 shots out of the cheap $2 liners from Savage. Savage charges $2 ea for the ventliners and $4 shipping (I get 10 shipped for $24 and they last for a long time). For telling how worn the liners are, I have some small "pin" gauges that I slip into the vent hole while I'm cleaning. These can be purchased or made w/ sewing needles. I just got the pin that was a hair bigger than a new liner and when it slips into the hole of the used liner, I replace.

Cleaning this MLer is pretty easy but, I don't clean it much at all when using smokeless. I will tell you this from experience, If you don't put teflon tape or alot of anti seize on the breech plug and the ventliner threads, you will have heck removing them. I had to throw away a breech plug because I couldn't remove the ventliner and I had put anit seize on that liner (must not have been enough). I then switched to the white teflon tape and its been easy to remove both.

I have had my best Luck w/ Hornady's 250 grn SST saboted MLer bullets. My favorite load has been 44 grains of IMR SR4759 under a bare saboted SST for groups less than 1" at 100 yards. Last season I used 43 grains of 4759 w/ the SSTs and it was great on big whitetails. The 9pt in my avatar fell to this MLer along w/ 2 other bucks and a doe. I have been thouroughly impressed as have others that have seen me shoot it at the range.

About using smokeless where it is against the law, I called our LADWF and the warden told me that if I was hunting during MLer season w/ a MLer liscense and hunting in an ethical manner that there wouldn't be any question as to which powder I was pouring in my front stuffer. He said if it's clearly a Muzzleloader w/ a ramrod attached under the barrel, the thought of smokeless powder would be the last thing on their mind. Our law states that you must use a BP substitute. Well, I do use a BP substitue and it's a hell of alot better than BP. W/ the way that our law is written, there is no way one could be prosecuted because there is clearly no definition of what a BP substitue is.

If you do decide to get one of these ML10s, I don't think you will be disappointed at all.

I have seen them at Natchezshootersupply.com for $379 lately.

Good Luck!

Reloader

Thanks Reloader and Owensby great info!

I know what I will buy now!

Looks like the savage is an awesome muzzle-loader.

Owensby could you go into a little more detail on the set up methods you are using, sounds like both of you have put in a lot of time and effort, and are getting great results from it.

The reason I'm getting this new gun is I'm planning a trip to Iowa next year and I want a gun that I know will shoot long range accurately if neccesary that I can be confident in with time spent on the range, and will be dependable in a cold harsh enviroment or wet conditions.

In other words my best friend should I get lucky and see the buck of a lifetime.

Hey Reloader

I see you're from North Louisiana, what part? I lived in Jonesboro and worked construction at Stone Container in Hodge for about a year in the late 80's.

Hey John,

We have traveled some of the same grounds.

I sent you a PM.

Reloader

John first let me give you a little more info and you can see where I am coming from.I put over a thousand rounds of sst and sw 250 gr bullets through my 2 savages this past year.I tried many different powder and grains in the loads.The best powder for the savage here in (NC) different temps was the IMR 4759.On the savage board some of the fellows were getting different results with different lot numbers,but for me I was lucky all the other fellows too was that we have only gotten the same lot number for the last 2 years so the distributor must have gotten a whole bunch of it at one time.The lot number is E98DE29 when this lot number runs out I may have a problem too.There was other powders that shot very well but I shoot all year and want one that would work the best in summer and winter.For example VV110 worked great in colder weather but to get the same groups I had to come down in load size and lost fps.
OK so much for the history.The first thing I have someone I am going to help is to take and give their barrel 200 strokes of JB bore cleaner,this helps to get the manufactors burrs and etc out and we start with a very clean barrel.
If they haven't shot it we zero at 25 yds and that should get you on paper at 100,it dosen't matter where you hit on at 100 because we are going to shoot for groups.
After that I usually start with 44.5 grs of 4759,some people use lighter load but all the one I help and myself want speed and accuracy.Some of them will shoot a tight group with that load and some have to have more powder to tighten up.So far 47.5 grs is the most I have gone and that gave me average of 2440 fps sampling several groups.All but one so far is shooting 47.5 gr loads and his rifle liked the 45.5 gr load better.One started out using the 300 sst and got very good groups using the 47.5 gr load but changed to the 250 after trying them.
Some of the rifles shoot better by swabbing between shots with a dry patch and some don't,mine (both) prefer not swabbing between shots.So you will have to try both ways to see.
The first thing I would do is order some of the vent liners from Randy Wakeman,they really do last longer than the ones savage sent with the rifle,I have been shooting them in both my rifles and the hole is still the same size,have put quit a few rounds through it but don't really know how many.
Another thing is I would clean out the breech plug after every 9 shots while looking for the best load.It is easy using a 9/64 drill bit,just work it through by hand.

The primer I have used both the fed and the win 209 both works fine.
Hope this helps you to get your savage shooting great right away/If I can be of anymore help you can email me.
Adding a couple pic's comparing different powers @100 yds.

Thanks Owensby for the detailed report and advice.

I would add that the laminated Savage stock looks good and that some of the injection molded factory stocks are not keepers. Perhaps the one that come with the ML10 is good but the one I got with a 270 WSM was not.

I paid about $500 for my SS ML 10 from Natchess. There is no FFL stuff or anything. UPS just leaves it on your porch!

Another neat thing about is that there is no getting ready loading up ammo for it. Just grab it and take it along and load it up for a shot while you let the other barrels cool on your centerfires.

The MLII is like Peck's bad boy: "When he is good............ Barrel and bolt cleaning is a non-issue, but removing the breechplug is a pain in the ass. The second pillar screw is also the bolt stop. Every time you remove the bolt, your zero changes. The breech plug wrench is a goofy pronged design. Why not a standard SAE socket like the Knights. The accu trigger is very good, but the plastic stock is absolute crap. My rifle is very accurate but extremely fussy. My barrel was rough as a cob and required extensive lapping with JB. My rifle prefers VVN110 and 250 grain Barnes expanders. Others (most) do better with the Hornady SSTs. I have the blued model and the blueing is very thin. The rifle is heavy and very muzzle heavy. All and all, the MLII is a mixed bag. IMO it is a decent weapon. With some redesign, it could be a great rifle. I think I may purchase one of Forbe's utralight muzzleloaders, rather than trying to fix the Savage. All of the above is just my experience. Your mileage may vary.

I just went to a web-site that has me a little nervous about the 10ml and smokeless, reading through the lines it looks like there is some friction between the inventor and Savage just my guess as the concern stemmed around the breech plug threads ie: inventor specs -vs- savage spec and erosion that was caused by not a complete gas seal, and has caused a major failure, they say in more than one gun.

The picture of the failed gun looked nasty.

You can decide for yourself and I think the gun that expired had if I remember right had several thousand shots on it. Here is the link:

http://www.hpmuzzleloading.com/Contents.html

Let me know your opinion from your thoughts as owners of these guns.

John TN.

John,

That ML10 blew up on Toby Bridges. He had fired tens of thousands of shots maybe a hundred thousand shots from ML10's and he was into duplex loads and pushing the ML10.

What really happened will be a matter for time and perhaps the courts to deceide however in my opinion Bridges made a mistake!

That's all there is to it. I think he had lots of stuff on the bench and put in a double charge of something or other or maybe a double duplex or triplex charge.

Thus I feel that the Savage is as safe as any other ML and just as strong. Anything can be destroyed. As far as I know there have not been similar accidents. Of course there will be as mistakes will be made again.

As to the breech plug I see nothing out of the ordinary about it design wise for the bolt action type rifles. An extension socket and handle come with the rifle. One just removes the bolt and turns out the breech plug. This is easy to do and then one can clean the rifle etc.

It's true that the bolt stop is also the rear action screw. This design is poor. A poster above notes that his point of impact changes when the bolt is removed. I believe the poster above has the injection molded stock however. I have the laminated stock and my POI does not change. If it did it would be very very unaccepteable to me and I would be all over Savage for that. Trust me that I would do that. POI is the most important part of hunting rifle accuracy to me!

The Savage SS ML 10 II Laminated, or whatever they call it is extremely consistant in every way. Over and over again, after removing the bolt for whatever and tightening the rear guard screw again the rifle is right on.

What I mean is that it will lay the first shot from a cold clean barrel right on at 200 yds. In fact it's just about as reliable as any other rifle I have ever seen. Mine does not shoot one hole groups. On average it's about a 1.5 MOA rifle with it's 4X scope.

I am just using the factory suggested load of 44 grs of AA 5744 and the 250 gr SST with the Win 209 primer. My velocity is 1975 fps over a Oehler 35P.

First check and double check your state regulations that any powder is legal. If it is then the ML 10 becomes very desirable. If it is not then there are lighter and better looking rifles I am sure.

Otherwise get the SS Laminated ML 10. The rifle shoots so well that it would really be a viable back up for medium sized big game. That's how reliable and powerful they are within their range.

Has anyone tried bedding the synthetic stocks beyond the factory pillar? ie bedding compound, that might help when removing the bolt stop screw to clean the gun.

john,

A member by the name of Woodseye sent one to a smith and had it free floated and bedded. Perhaps there was a change in the stop screw as well. I have not seen him post as of late.

I do things by the path of least resistance. If there is a problem then it's management by exception. These are just a lot of buzz words that say my Savage has always hit right on so I put it in the other safe (inactive) after cleaning it and I will get it out next fall. It's all set.

I've never seen a ML10 that suffered accuracy or POI when removing the Bolt stop screw. Not saying it doesn't happen but, it's certainly not common. I also find it easier to clean than my Knight inlines.

It's a pretty dang good MLer if you ask me, by far the best I've dealt w/ (and that includes some pretty popular brands).

Good Luck!

Reloader

Got a black on black. Their a learning curve. If your frustrated real easy dont bother. If your willing to stick with something their second to none. Some come out of the box 100%, but few. Most could stand a little bedding,small things like that.Put up with these,and before you know it your into sub .7 moa

I pedded and installed a third pillar in my ml 2,,

the bedding tightened groups some, the third pillar "just in front of the trigger guard changed nothing.

mine will do moa all day with several different loads 250 and 300 grain. The gun is a hoss, mine is painted camo and has been beat, banged and used hard for several years now. Yes it is heavy but so is every ML out there, one great thing about the savage is its strenght.

The one that Mr. Bridges blew had been through the wringer so to speak. He had build his website around the ability of the ML 2 to withstand much higher than factory charges, and loads that included added subbases and duplex powders. None of these loads were accepted by Savage but Mr. Bridges was a racedriver of the ML 2 and could not have been happier with the gun untill it blew. He was also not the inventor of the ml 1 or ml 2, just someone who did alot of load developement and writing about them.

The black on black that I have was steel epoxy bedded by myself. What I do is I use the factory breech removal tool, but in the following way. After rear screw is removed, I put in a dumby one that is shorter, and snug it down. Its only shorter by the amount that would stick up into action. I can then unscrew breech, clean,do whatever without fear of movement cause its only held with one bolt. When I'm done, I put proper screw back in with action bolt, and the amount I loose POI can never be noticed. They sell EZ tools to take breech out without taking bolt out, but I do it ny way, cause I prefer to clean from rear. A great addition I put on mine, was boring trigger guard front hole out to .340".Then I made a steel washer .255 ID,.340 OD,.080 thick . It goes on the rear action screw, so the pressure comes fully onto the pillar bushing, not the plastic trigger guard. Works great

Now thats funny,,,I did about the same thing with the rear action screw before I added the third screw.....

I cut the front off of the trigger guard and created a steel washer with a lip on one side, that snugs against the steel pillar in the stock and the lip curles up and over the trigger guard holding it snug.....snuging a bolt against a plastic trigger guard was just silly I thought,,,,,

If you have already bedded your synthetic stock fully then adding a third bolt is easy,,,but it didn't change mine any that I could tell, the bedding helped more than anything,,,JB weld to the rescue.....With a good bedding job there should be no POI change even if you take the gun apart.....seems to me at least

Right you are. You bed the thing with JB, and get metal to metal on rear screw, and all other mods are very minor extras.

43.2 grs of 4759 or 61 grs of h4198 push a xtp 300 at a very comfortable, and deadly acurate 2200 fps.

Can you tell me how you bedded yours with the JB,did you put anything in to stiffen the stock,fill the mag box and etc.I don't know one thing about rebedding but have a friend that does all of it for me.So if I know more I can tell him what I want done to it.One thing for sure I am going to try the washer.Both my rifles have the plastic stocks and it a long time till deer season again so I think I will try to have one bedded and see how much difference it makes.Thanks

email me . dougl@nrtco.net I'll send you a pic. Mine happens to be apart for a thorough cleaning

I have gotten to many requests for me to handle on a dial up connection. I will post pics here if Saaed ever addresses my emails regarding my inability to full post.

well I will post for ya on a image site I have and link to here,,,

I filled the mag well by cutting a piece of stainless tubing that fit pretty snug on the sides the right lenght,,,then rough up the interior surface of the stock, I filled the front half of the pipe piece with a styrafoam plug to save some weight and filled the back half with JB weld for strenght for the third action bolt.

Put enough JB in the mag well to bed the pipe firmly, then wiggle the pipe in, there was enough open space on either end of the pipe so the ends were bonded well by JB flowing around them. I made sure everything was below the level of the action and let this dry, I also had drilled small holes all over the pipe for bonding

Then bed the action by roughing up the new JB and pipe"what could be seen" as well as around the factory "pillars" putting in enough JB to float the action and letting it set till it has a slight jell consistancy,,,little to soft at first for me. Then already have the action covered in a release agent " I use a thin smear of blue grease" and press it into place and snug the action bolts,,,,or start the action bolts and use strong plastic wire ties to snug the action down,,,I had a well respected Gun smith tell me this was better so it is what I do. It will take overnight for it to harden enough to remove and you may have to smack the stock with ba rubber mallet but the fit will be nice,,,,remove to early and you will pull out chunks of bedding.

I put some tape and cotton around the trigger group to protect it or you could remove the trigger and mill back out for it,

Be sure that there are no holes in the action for the JB to flow into and that you get NOOOOO jb on your action bolt threads,,,,I coated each action screw with blue gease and ran them in and out beforehand just in case.

The third bolt is easy but you will need a tap, I used a drill press and work top to plumb the new hole with the back factory hole. Measure the action to see how far apart to put them. Drilled the hole in the stock through the pipe "on the JB filled end" and through the stock. Use a bit the size required for the tap. I drilled from the top so I would for sure be centered on the action.

Then install the action and use the new hole as a guide for the hole in the action. Drill through the botton of the action "be sure to have the bolt OUT,,,,,

Then remove the action and tap the hole, drill out the hole in the stock to allow free passage of the bolt then countersink the bottom of this hole so the new bolt stays flushed or resessed.

Spelling errors and all thats how I did mine I ordered a couple extra action bolts and ground one down to the right lenght. Total cost was ???? $40 and some time

Thanks for the detailed info.will see if my friend can do this on my blue savage.He has bedded several rifles for me in the past.

Toby Bridges is not the inventor. Henry Ball is. There is a lot of speculation of why the gun blew up so let me speculate a little. It seems strange to me that Toby bridges was un-injured in the incident.

Walker

you say no injury, I saw the picture of the gun, it was ugly. Wouldn't have wanted to been the one holding it, can't believe no injury, it looks like stuff would have been going in all directions.

That's my point. Set up?? Intentional??? Make Savage look bad?? Nobody holding the gun when it blew???

I guess anythings possible, funny how you would endorse a product and then after thousands of shots, you would change your mind. I'm like you something is not right about the whole situation.

"what kind of grouping, dislikes, problems, etc."

I've gotten groups of 7 1/2" @ 150yds, and groups of 3/4"
@ 150yds. Like any other ML, it does take a little load work to
find its "honey load". Unlike many other ML's, it can have
several honey loads due to all the different kinds of powders
that can be used.

My only dislike is the need to remove the rear action screw in
order to remove the bolt (a result of BATF requirements on THIS,
and no other bolt action ML). As far as the breech plug tool,
it can be cut down with new holes drilled (four is better than
two) so that it fits in the open area of the bolt. The plug
can then be removed without removing the bolt. A thorough
cleaning is better achieved when the bolt is removed, but when
there is a need to only remove the breech plug, such a modified
tool is pretty handy.

The only "problem" I had with my stainless/laminated model was
a need to sand away a portion of the forearm area where it was
actually pushing on the barrel when stock screws were tightened.
I do feel it could be improved with a good bedding job, but
not totally necessary (necessary or not, I'm going to bed mine).

As for the rifle that blew.......things are terribly fishy
about that whole ordeal, and it IS the only one that blew like
that. There have been a couple bulged barrels, one due to a
double load, and the other due to shooter forgetting to remove
the ramrod. If my information is correct, Savage replaced both
barrels without charge.

Most Savages do not lose zero when the barrel is removed from the stock.
To avoid this problem, a tool has been invented which enables someone to pull the breech plug without taking the barrel out of the stock. It sells for $20 and works very well. Lots of guys are using this for their full time breech plug tool because it is very small, easy to take hunting
I have the blued plastic Savage and it got 1 1/2 inch groups right out of the box.
It sure is nice to hunt all day and not have to clean the rifle. This year I went the entire hunting season without cleaning.
If you want to do 200 yard plus shooting with a muzzleloader the Savage is the best way to go.
Yes they are finicky about loads, but if you go over to the Savage forum and learn what works, you can do like I did and get 1 1/2 inch groups on the first day. At 3,000 foot pounds, that is awesome performance from a muzzleloader.
I would not go to HP Muzzleloading for impartial info on the gun that blew up. Toby Bridges is not a credible source.
Even he admits that the gun had over 7,000 shots through it and many exceeded manufacturer's specs. He now has an axe to grind against Savage and, in the eyes of many who used to admire him, he has lost credibility.

Simon

Who makes the after-market breech plug tool for the savage?

John TN.

I have the Blued/Camo ML-2.I haven't shoot it alot to give alot of good enough info on it but what little I have I can say, I LOVE it.

With the Barnes 245gr Spit-Fire also with the MMP Sub Base 43gr IMR 4759 using the Lee Dipper,3shot groups right at 1" @ 100.Can't wait to see what the weighed charges do.Now if I could get the time to get back to the range with it.

Only dislike is the bolt having to be removed to get to the breech plug out,but as as also mentioned above the tool mention is said to solve this,and the need for one shot to settle it back in.

Here is the link for the Savage EZ Tool.

http://www.chuckhawks.com/ez_tool_instructions.htm

The best source for Savage loads and tech tips is
http://dougva.proboards34.com/index.cgi

yep Dougs is the place,

I just took my breach plug out and cleaned it, for the first time in 4 months and 60 shots or so,,,,do not get much time to shoot.