G’day fellas!

I’m really enjoying reading the novel The Revenant - it’s one of my favourite movies, too.

Well, it says that Glass loaded his .54” with 200 grains of powder. Realistic or fantasy?

I’ve been known to use 100 grains in mine, chasing animals a .54” flintlock was never intended for.

Yeah, so I’m just curious about how realistic the novelist was being.

Cheers!

Try an experiment. I do not guarantee the results, but at one time I built and shot muzzle loaders.

I have read/heard that if a person will take a bed sheet or piece of white canvas and place it on the ground 5 feet or so from the muzzle of the rifle and then fire the gun, they will see how much powder is blown out of the barrel at the shot.

It has been 20 years since I shot a muzzle loader so I may be off with that.

Ben - Years ago I guided a Nevada cowboy that had a Maine moose tag. He had a homemade .58 cal round ball rifle. His loading method was one I had only read about in books about the mountain men of the pre-1840 American West. He put the ball in the palm of his hand and poured black powder over it until the ball was just covered. That was the measure. Worked just fine, no prob. He hammered a fine 56 inch bull from about 25 yards, that bull took a couple stagger steps and went down. Probably there'll be some anal wart that will reply regarding the in advisability of this loading method, but I believe it's correct historically if nothing else. Crazy Horse - That works on snow too. Merry Christmas to all

The Revenant is long on novel. 200 grs. in a 54 is fantasy. Can/could it be done, sure, but it's an immense waste of powder and powder was always at a premium in any wilderness. We tend to use heavier charges today than was the norm back then.

Thanks, guys. You confirmed my suspicions. Cheers!

I always heard more like caliber in grains of powder.

I took my 50 up to 100 not much difference. So I stayed light.

For what it is worth my .50 TC shoots best with 100 grs of bp under a round ball. I started at 60 grs an worked up by 5grs at a time until the bang sounded like a crack. Accuracy is the same at 90 - 100.

quote:

Originally posted by groundtender:
Ben - Years ago I guided a Nevada cowboy that had a Maine moose tag. He had a homemade .58 cal round ball rifle. His loading method was one I had only read about in books about the mountain men of the pre-1840 American West. He put the ball in the palm of his hand and poured black powder over it until the ball was just covered. That was the measure. Worked just fine, no prob. He hammered a fine 56 inch bull from about 25 yards, that bull took a couple stagger steps and went down. Probably there'll be some anal wart that will reply regarding the in advisability of this loading method, but I believe it's correct historically if nothing else. Crazy Horse - That works on snow too. Merry Christmas to all

This was the way my Dad told me how it was done traditionally, except it was only used as a way of finding out the charge, after this you made a powder measure for this amount.

200 grains is a lot of powder, I load a 400 grain Minie ball in my .54 with 120 grains of FFG and it runs about 1,400 fps and the recoil lets you know that you shot it.

I've heard about people pouring powder over the ball until covered and I guess that makes it a highly personal load because of the different sizes of people's hands and how much you cup it every time.



GOEX has a Blackpowder loading chart: http://www.goexpowder.com/load-chart.html

It says that my load is at max so use caution.

Well some say use all the powder you want as a muzzle loader blows what it can't use out the barrel..That may work on a modern muzzle loader with a heavy barrel, Ive shot as much as 140 grs in my 54 Great Plains and it was accurate and gave me no problems, little rough on patches but got past that by switching to bedding patches...My 2 58s will handle 160 and that's as far as I tried, My accuracy was 125 in one 58 and 140 in the other..The 54 has always shot 125 grs....All with double F .....I use the same load with bullet or ball, but mostly with bullets...

200 is way too much and recoil gets pretty grim when you get too much FFG, but not compared to a big bore rifle..

quote:

Originally posted by BenKK:
G’day fellas!

I’m really enjoying reading the novel The Revenant - it’s one of my favourite movies, too.

Well, it says that Glass loaded his .54” with 200 grains of powder. Realistic or fantasy?

I’ve been known to use 100 grains in mine, chasing animals a .54” flintlock was never intended for.

Yeah, so I’m just curious about how realistic the novelist was being.

Cheers!

I tend to agree with sharps4590. Powder was hard to come by so they probably used as little as possible.

I have never used more than 100 grains in any of my rifles. In my .54 I usually use 85 grains. Kills whitetails just fine.

I can tell you that 220 grains of Black Powder behind a 54 caliber PRB will kick the living bejeezus out of ya, but hit spot on target.
I have shot that load twict . . .
Both times being the result of the same person walking up, engaging me in conversation in the midst of my loading cycle.

Made me very conscious of keeping up with where I was in the loading procedures.

Was less than my proof load

50 FFFG is good target load, 80 FFFG is accurate and full power and 110 FFFG is just as accurate with PRB. Went elk hunting with the 110 FFFG and PRB, unfortunately I did not find a volunteer for a test target.

I did not get the above Goex link to work, but this will get one to the site, but I could not get the load data to open . . .

https://goexpowder.com/resources/load-charts/

The rule of thumb for loads the old timers used was one grain of powder per caliber designation for target loads, one and a half grains per caliber for most applications, and two grains per caliber for heavy hunting loads.

Well, Selous wrote that he used 20 drams in his 4-bore....so about 550 grains w/a 1400 grain ball.

quote:

Originally posted by BenKK:
G’day fellas!

I’m really enjoying reading the novel The Revenant - it’s one of my favourite movies, too.

Well, it says that Glass loaded his .54” with 200 grains of powder. Realistic or fantasy?

Maybe he did. I don't. I would note that the military load for the .54 1803 rifle was 3 drams. Which is 82 grains. I use 85 in my .54

The great thing about black powder muzzleloaders is that what the barrel can't use is just blown out the muzzle.

there are several ways of determining a load to use. 1 is 3 7ths the weight of the ball. so a 140gr ball, would be 60grs. the other way is to put the ball in your slightly cupped hand and pour powder till it covers the ball. this will come up pretty close to the 3 7ths when weighed. Basically, though, folks going out into the blue, used as little powder as they could get away with, just because it was hard to find. I use a 70gr load when shooting my 45.

I suspect anyone attributing a 200gr load to a patched round ball rifle, doesn't know anything about shooting MLers,and should read "The Muzzleloding Caplock Rifle. has lots of good info in it.

My rule of thumb after you fire a round you run a patch on your cleaning rod, If it black to much powder. Reduce load until your patch comes back green. Now. this is for high grade black powder, not all black powder is the same.

Everyone please read the Lyman BP handbook and the Gn Digest BP loading manuals, both by Sam Fadela. In them he tests a wide range of loads for each caliber of rifle, and gives an "optimum" load and pressure data for each. That will prevent guessing; just like we do when loading smokeless powder.
Yes, 200 grains is a complete waste of powder.

200 gr in a 54 would be very wasteful and push a lot of unburt powder out the end. I use 200gr in my 12 bore underhammer. The most I have ever shot in a 54 is 130 and 120 was the most accurate in that rifle.

I could swear I read an account of the outdoorsman Horace Kephart shooting his original Hawken with a great deal of powder -- perhaps as much as 200 grains. I will look for the reference. Of course, at the turn of the 20th century, he would have had access to the legendary Curtis and Harvey Diamond Grade No. 6.

It can be done, but as some state you blow the excess out the tube and gain nothing but recoil..

Ive seen many elk shot with 54s and 58s during the Idaho muzzle loadidng season, the best elk hunt available btw, as is archery....they have made it as easy as possible for you infirm primitive types!

Im sure of one thing, the 58 caliber is by far the quickest killer on elk Ive ever seen with a bullet and not bad at all with a ball...and that includes many modern calibers..Those big bulls go down pronto with the 58..

quote:

Originally posted by Willy47:
My rule of thumb after you fire a round you run a patch on your cleaning rod, If it black to much powder. Reduce load until your patch comes back green. Now. this is for high grade black powder, not all black powder is the same.

Might just have to try that. Never seen a green patch come out of a black powder gun.

I had a .72 cal/12bore barrel made by Ed Rayl
in Va. I asked what's the max loading so I don't get into trouble with it.

"1400gr slug with 240gr FFg, but, start around 80 and work up and you'll never get near max charge".

I reamed out a Lee 12ga slug mold. Forgot to make grease grooves though. Slug comes out at 1160gr, with a nice 1/8"deep x 3/8" dia. HP.

I'd taken the sprue plate off and stuck the nipple down in the blocks. As it started to set up I twisted it and came out with the HP. Looks sharp as can be.

Never found anyone to cut the stock for me. So it's never been finished yet. Barrels: 1 1/8" oct, 38" long, 1:38". Alone it weighs 7#'s.

Trying to hit the 200 meter Ram with large REAL's in a 24", 38" twist CVA. They were hitting a touch short with 100gr FFg, I upped it to 120gr. Don't know if that helped or not with accuracy. May have been better off just raising the elevation.

After hitting it 3 out of 5 shots I went to look and found half dollar sized lead disks on the ground. So it still had plenty of velocity. That was with recycled range lead, pretty hard stuff. Never shot much RB's with it. Just playing in the BP match's is all. Took it elk hunting a couple times, never got a shot. Gun was stolen a few years ago while I was in the hosp. sick. Just got a new Hawken, hasn't been loaded yet even.

George

It depends on what quality powder Mr Glass had access to. Cheap and poor performing powder sold to Indians on the frontier might have required more.

Still it is possible to shoot that much in a .54, and for a particular shot maybe he had good reason.

Or perhaps there is a typo and the author meant it was a .64 calibre trade gun or some such.

I use about 100 grains (measured) in the 54 caliber Hawken.

200? Yeah I might have tried it if I lived in those times. But as was said I am not sure how much powder they had available then.

I did read once, that when Lewis and Clark returned from their first trip west, they still had enough powder and ball left to go again. Those guys went prepared right.

I use between 90 and 100 grains measured in my three 54's depending on what projectile I am using (round, mini or maxi ball). Plenty enough powder for anything that I want to hunt.

In old African hunting books they used to just load a handful of powder.

No measurement at all.

On several ocassions they would forget that the rifle was loaded and add another one!

Flying off the back of a horse while chasing a wounded elephant must have been quite good fun.

Some wrote an elephant required over 30 round balls to kill it.

quote:

Originally posted by Mark:

quote:

Originally posted by groundtender:
Ben - Years ago I guided a Nevada cowboy that had a Maine moose tag. He had a homemade .58 cal round ball rifle. His loading method was one I had only read about in books about the mountain men of the pre-1840 American West. He put the ball in the palm of his hand and poured black powder over it until the ball was just covered. That was the measure. Worked just fine, no prob. He hammered a fine 56 inch bull from about 25 yards, that bull took a couple stagger steps and went down. Probably there'll be some anal wart that will reply regarding the in advisability of this loading method, but I believe it's correct historically if nothing else. Crazy Horse - That works on snow too. Merry Christmas to all

This was the way my Dad told me how it was done traditionally, except it was only used as a way of finding out the charge, after this you made a powder measure for this amount.

The above is true as far as mountain men are concerned. This was done to find the proper amount, as Mark says. However before a measure was made, and after, the loads were packaged with a ball in one end and the proper powder charge in the other end of a waxed paper cartridge, with a string around between the ball in one end and the powder in the other, The powder end was torn open and powder poured down the barrel, and the ball still wrapped in the greased, or waxed paper driven down the barrel, cap placed on the nipple, or primer powder in the flint pan ready to shoot. This was because the rifle could be reloaded much faster for another shot, or shots if the Indians or a grizzly was the target! These paper cartridges were made up ahead of need and carried in a so-called bullet box on the belt for fast reloads when needed.


……………………………………………………………..

This is a bit off. Actually very little us known about actual loads and/or effectiveness. Black powder was many times handmade and the purity of it will always be conjecture. Early settlers were said to just pour some powder from the powder horn down the barrel. The length of the barrel was very important. Long barrels allowed more of the powder to burn while shorter barrels sent as much downrange as behind the bullet. Even today, traditional guns waste 50% of their charges.

Though we speak of "grains" all your measures are made by volume. Surprisingly, 200 grains is less than a half ounce and as stated, volume measure equivalents were made and spit cartridges made using that volume measure easier.

Another more important variable was powder grade. Powder in a horn continually self-ground. You had FFG all the way to FFFFg in that horn. Your ballistics varies by what grade was most prevalent. As long as the barrel wasn't obstructed the gun fired without accident.

Like Babe Ruth's homerun call, we'll never know.

George you are correct of course! The quality of the powder was not consistent, and so the amount of powder is not , nor has ever been even today with things as simple as different lot# of modern black powder.


That being said, I'm sure the OP was looking for a general method that would suffice for today. The waxed paper cartridge/ ball combination and bullet pouch, regardless of accuracy, made for a very quick re-load of a muzzleloader for the follow-up shots to protect the shooter, or to keep game from escaping, when food was needed, or protection was the need.

The belt bullet/powder and patch box as one of the things that was brought about to facilitate a constant powder charge as could be expected in the muzzleloader days.
Certainly for smoke pole shooter today this certainly makes hunting a better choices than just dumping a different amount of black powder for every shot.

…………………………………………..Just a thought but one should paddle his canoe at what ever speed he chooses, so that it works the best for him/herself!

….Now lets get into how one gets loads consistence enough to make a muzzle-loading DOUBLE RIFLE regulate consistently!
………………………………………………………….

200 gr of homeade, maybe damp powder, sounds fine to me.

I have read where grizzlies are kind of hard to kill. I am pretty sure I would rather the gun go bang with enough velocity to hurt the bear real bad, even to the point of death. I have read where Mr Glass was hurt pretty bad by a she bear. I am thinking wasting powder on a griz was not the first concern.

I believe that Horace Kephart article on testing an original Hawken was published in the April 1924 issue of "American Rifleman." Will look for a link.

It is the April 15, 1924, issue; American Rifleman came out twice a month in those days. Now to find a copy.

Not the American Rifleman article, but Kephart quoted in "The Plains Rifle" by Dr. Charles Hanson, pp. 41-42, and footnoted from an article in the Saturday Evening Post, Feb. 21, 1920, Vol. 192, Page 65. A 217-grain lead round ball would be about .525 caliber.

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
Well some say use all the powder you want as a muzzle loader blows what it can't use out the barrel..That may work on a modern muzzle loader with a heavy barrel, Ive shot as much as 140 grs in my 54 Great Plains and it was accurate and gave me no problems, little rough on patches but got past that by switching to bedding patches...My 2 58s will handle 160 and that's as far as I tried, My accuracy was 125 in one 58 and 140 in the other..The 54 has always shot 125 grs....All with double F .....I use the same load with bullet or ball, but mostly with bullets...

200 is way too much and recoil gets pretty grim when you get too much FFG, but not compared to a big bore rifle..

I shoot 120 grains in my .54 with a Barnes Sabot or a maxi ball. Works well for me.

quote:

Originally posted by groundtender:
Ben - Years ago I guided a Nevada cowboy that had a Maine moose tag. He had a homemade .58 cal round ball rifle. His loading method was one I had only read about in books about the mountain men of the pre-1840 American West. He put the ball in the palm of his hand and poured black powder over it until the ball was just covered. That was the measure. Worked just fine, no prob. He hammered a fine 56 inch bull from about 25 yards, that bull took a couple stagger steps and went down. Probably there'll be some anal wart that will reply regarding the in advisability of this loading method, but I believe it's correct historically if nothing else. Crazy Horse - That works on snow too. Merry Christmas to all

The above post, though old, is a true process to find volume, for the making of a powder measuring cup for measuring loads for any muzzle loader. Of course this is a start to find the proper volume for a starting volume that shoots the best in any black powder rifle. ones found a brass load dipper can be made for hunting in the field!

.................................... MacD37

If you read up on some of the plains rifles by Horace Dimick, E K Tryon and others ( yes the Hawkens too)
Many of the rifles weighed 12-15 pounds, to withstand charges of up to 215 grains. That is from there own advertising.

I'll tell you how they did it in the field. They put around ball in their palm and poured enough powder over the ball to cover it in a cone like shape. Picked the ball out of the powder and dumped it down the barrel with their hand cupped like a funnel. Then they seated the ball with a greased patch trimmed the patch flush with the barrel with a knife and seated it home. I have personally used this method on an antelope hunt in NM when I lost my powder measure on a 300 yard crawl/stalk and missed the first shot. Had to reload but had no measure and was 120 miles from the nearest place where I could buy one. I took my antelope no problem using this method. But I've been to enough primitive shoots and woods walks to know it would work as I've done it in competitions before...

Anyone who thinks 200 grains of powder in a muzzleloader is a great idea should think about the 45-70.... 500 grain projectile with 70 grains of 2F...

Very little black powder was made by small manufacturers and the reasons were numerous. 1. The US has very little natural salt peter or sulfur deposits. While you can manufacture salt peter by leeching urine and animal waste its not exactly a highly productive process and requires a dedicated leeching pond and ability to refine the crystals of Nitre produced. 2. It was highly dangerous--especially the milling operation. Milling black powder took large milling stones, sieves and animals to run the mill. Supposedly a powder mill took 12-20 hours to turn pressed blocks of powder into granulated powder. Additionally 3. Excellent quality black powder was imported in large quantities from the Swiss, the French and the Indies....

Domestic production of black powder amounted to 100,000 pounds total during the revolutionary war and we imported more than 50 tons a year from the swiss and french!

There is a large bit of lore about self sufficiency and frontier life. A lot of it is pure BS. For example over 90% of the muzzleloading guns back in the day were made with imported locks from England and the Continent. To be sure they were made into guns by domestic gunsmiths. But the myth of the gunsmith banging out a rifle from a bunch of iron ore is pretty much not how it happened. Just as you can't make black powder in you back yard without sulfur...which was largely imported from Sicily back in the day. Today Sulfur is a byproduct of the petroleum industry. But in 1800 there was no such thing.

I have an old Remington rolling block. It was in bad shape and had been in a fire so we made it into an inline before Cabelas or anyone else was marketing them. Took a rifled barrel blank in 58 and 45 and set them up for a 58 hunting barrel with the 45 having sight blocks set up on top for target sights. We used a set screw to hold the barrel indexed. The 58 is shot with 90 gr black and two patched RB. I have shot 120 gr with single patched RB. I also have a few minie balls custom made by a friend. 705 gr dead soft lead and hollow base. You will find it to have enough kick at a max of 90 gr 3F BLACK. I have not connected with a game animal but I am sure any of those loads would be good medicine for any mammal on the North American continent. Would prefer the Minie for big bear though. A necro thread, this still has a good dialog in it. Be Well, Packy.

I shoot 54 cal round ball with about 65 grains of Pyrodex
Kills like a charm