Reading through these discussions, I feel like I am the only one who still hunts with a tradional muzzleloading rifle. Whatever blows your skirt up, but I just have a problem classifying the new breed of in-lines as "primitive" weapons, especially the scoped, stainless-synthetic ones. Other than speed of reloading, I don't see a lot of difference between most of the in-lines and a cartridge rifle. I guess that I will continue to be a dinosaur with my T/C 54-caliber Renegade and my original 1848 .62-caliber Swedish half-stock alg (moose) rifle.

Dave

I sort of agree with you, to a point. I use in-lines, but I don't really use much of the stuff that will give them an advantage...no scope, no stainless. I did it for ease of loading pellets and ease of cleaning, that's all. I don't expect to shoot my muzzleloader over 75 yards, either. I like, and have no problems with the sidelocks or flintlocks, I guess I am just lazy. I don't consider cleaning them as a rewarding experience.

I have three TC Renegade Green Mountain rifles. All are conical shooters. They shoot better than most inlines. Ron

Caplocks were a shortlived transitional technology compared to the flintlock.



I run a T/C Encore 209x50 when convenience and ease of cleaning are my highest priorities. Otherwise I run a Lyman Great Plains Rifle as a .54 caliber rocklock roundball rifle. It's coil springs mark it as not nearly as authentic and old timey as my .62 caliber smoothbore flint fusil. I know a guy who hunts with a 10 bore matchlock who thinks flintlocks are for wimps.

I sold all 4 sidelocks and bought an inline for less than half of what I got for one of them.I was hoping to get a lot of use out of them,but only shot them a few times a year.Between sight in and hunting I only shoot this one 10 times a year.

I like to hunt muzzleloader season, and a muzzleloader is whats allowed. Just like this is a muzzleloader big game hunting forum, its where you talk about hunting big game with muzzleloaders. If you like primitive and traditional thats great.......lot of muzzleloader hunters don't. Savage shooting 43 grains of N110 behind a 250 barnes with no mess to clean up later floats my boat right well......kinda bad for the big game though

In states like Pa. they are alive and well. Some states do not allow the inline or for that matter handgun bullets in sabots for big game hunting.

Put me on the side of those who believe the new in-lines are not "primitve" hunting rifles and don't deserve special seasons. I feel the same way about compound bows.

Bill Quimby

I don't see the inlines as much of an advantage as allowing scopes. I've shot inlines and they don't shoot any better with open sights than a percussion.

I also don't see compounds giving as much an advantage as I see treestands. As some point you decide if you want more to kill deer or get a warm fuzzy "nostalgia" feeling from the experience.

BTW...I shoot a T/C White Mountain Hunter percussion without a scope.

I have both, traditional and in-line, and I shoot and enjoy both of them very much. To each his own.

i still hunt with traditional percussion rifles with round balls in .62 and .72 caliber. i also have two White inlines in .451 and .504 that i shoot 450-500gr. conicals out of. i use aperture sights and #11's or musket caps on all of them. personally i think the only advantage inlines have is the easy scope mounting. if you take away the scope there is no real advantage.

A removable breech plug is a HUGE improvement.
Cuts clean up for me from an hour to 20 minutes

quote:

Originally posted by Roger Keezer:
I have both, traditional and in-line, and I shoot and enjoy both of them very much. To each his own.

That's kinda what I'm getting at. If you enjoy hunting with flintlock then by all means enjoy it to the fullest. If I felt I was at a big disadvantage I'd have an inline, with a scope, tomorrow.

I love muzzleloading, and will continue to use whatever is legal in the state I am hunting. The debate will go on as long as two or more people shoot different rifles!

For traditional, I've used Hawkens, Renegades, New Englanders, GreyHawks, and a Great Plains Hunter.

For the in-lines, it has been Whites, Knights, Rem 700 MLs, and even one CVA (once ).

Now I have settled on the three best for me and my interests- a White Whitetail in 50 cal./open sights and conicals, a White Whitetail 50 ca./scoped with sabots for general seasons, and a TC Greyhawk in 50 cal. with conicals.

I hunt with a Lyman's GPR, 50 caliber, round ball and Goex blackpowder. For me, it is preference over the in-lines. I also shoot a traditional recurve over a compound bow...again, it is simply preference.

I did not know stainless and synthetic gave anyone an advantage. If it is loaded from the muzzle it is a muzzleloader, pure and simple.

I shoot, a T/C 50-caliber Renegade open sights, a Encore Pro-hunter with a scope and a Savage smokeless with a scope. They are load from the muzzle and only have one shot. Therefor they are muzzleloader's.

The biggest advantage I see in the new inlines is that they actually go off when you pull the trigger when you have been out in wet snow all day. The second biggest advantage is the ease at which you clean them.

quote:

The biggest advantage I see in the new inlines is that they actually go off when you pull the trigger when you have been out in wet snow all day.

I agree with that, ML'er season in Maine can be a snowy affair. Hunt right south of ya.....

Dave

I call the inline a tool for having to shoot long range where the hunter can't hunt to get close or can't stand to let an animal go by.
I have nothing against the idea of the inline because it is not a new innovation. I would buy one rifled for a round ball but will have nothing to do with sabots and revolver bullets. I will stay with my flinters and side locks because either takes deer to beyond 100 yd's with open sights.
I kill all of my deer with bows and revolvers because I like animals close. If it is too far, it walks. I have been so successful that I have not had to go out in muzzle loader season for years. I shot 5 this season and quit. 2 of the deer were shot at 55 yd's with revolvers. I see no need at all for a gun that will shoot 200 yd's or being too lazy to clean the gun. Why not just use a 30-06?
I sold my high power rifles because it was just too easy to kill. Not hunting at all, more like bullseye shooting. Anything in sight was dead. Cows in a field are just as sporting. To advance the muzzle loader to this will never fit my idea of hunting.
I hear a lot comparing the compound bow to the stick bow but in actuality it is not much better as far as distance. 20 yd's is 20 yd's.
I know, a lot of you say you still hunt close. You have the inline because it is easy to load and clean. It fires all the time so you don't miss out on a deer----SO WHAT? You fellas are missing out on a true experience and a lot of fun. So what if a cap pops or a flint doesn't spark! Do you really feel bad that the deer walked away? Can't you laugh it off and try again?
I keep getting the feeling that it is the greed to kill and not the hunting experience that controls the market today. Keep your inlines, they are only a step away from a brass case.

Well I guess I'll chime in.

I got my first 4 deer with a flintlock and hope to shoot the last animal with one. I usually hunt flintlocks exclusivley.

I build flintlocks as a hobby and even won a few ribbons for them.

I don't have a problem with production traditional rifles; but the quality of their componets seem to turn people off on muzzleloading. I've shot in the rain/snow/sleet and everything else you can think of. I've carried a flinter all over this country and a few others.

The tradition is alive and well with me. I even hunt in period attire.

turfman

If you have quality products a flinte

I got one but I am restoring the wood on mine It is a T/C Neweglander if that falls in tradinal has realy nice wood on it but kinda banged up in two spots, then once it is done it is going on the wall..I want to get a A&H one we have at work has 1-60" twist VERY nice wwod

I am not a purist... I use in-lines stainless/composet/sabot/scope 3x9x40 Leupys on both I also like 80% letoff compound bows and the newfangled computers are kinda neat too. Whatever blows your skirt up...now there I have to draw the line I wear pants. (can't stand the draft)

Gees, I was reading these notes about ease of cleaning in-lines and have to give my 2c. What is this about in-lines being easier to clean? I find they are a pain to clean, with crap getting into the threads of the breach plug, water runing into trigger, under stock-- no thanks. I use a TC Greyhawk, and takes me 5 minutes to clean it up. Take it out of stock, take out the nipple, plung breach into hot water, and pump a couple of patches up and down with cleaning rod. Clean the hammer, dry all and we are done. I use black powder, conical,(never sabots) apiture sights. I have never had a missfire. It is deadly to 100 meters, maybe beyond, but have not shot at any deer past 100. I am on side with side locks - they were designed for black powder!

I'm one who uses both. That having been said,my sidelock is just as accurate as my inline out to 100yds. I got the inline just because it will take a mag.load 150gr.(about 70 more yards).I dont know why though.Every deer Ive taken has been less than 100yds and most under 75yds.



"Big bullets","for those who like to eat right up to the hole"

My Omega has sold and I am now going to oorder a Flintlock. I have never even held a Flintlock however, I just want to put a little more tradition and a bit more exercise into my hunts. I have centerfire rifles to harvest deer with if I get hungry and I need the meat. I am at a point that I want more "hunting" in my ML hunting. I have also bought a recurve bow to start using rather than my compound. I just want to see if I can do it like they used to do it.

quote:

I am not a purist... I use in-lines stainless/composet/sabot/scope 3x9x40 Leupys on both I also like 80% letoff compound bows and the newfangled computers are kinda neat too. Whatever blows your skirt up...now there I have to draw the line I wear pants. (can't stand the draft)

I'm with you Ted, Pants are where I draw the line. My state has a ML'er season, thats why I have my savage.....no clean-up and great performance. If and when they start a primitive traditional black powder season (its been voted down twice by the bowhunters who don't care to share any of their season) I will look at other types of ML'ers....till then its ML'er season with my savage.

Dave

quote:

Other than speed of reloading, I don't see a lot of difference between most of the in-lines and a cartridge rifle.

Then you aren't looking. The performance of any muzzle-loading black powder rifle is dismal compared to a cartridge rifle.

quote:

I call the inline a tool for having to shoot long range where the hunter can't hunt to get close or can't stand to let an animal go by.

Just what kind of "long range" do you think an in-line is capable of? There's no magic that comes from putting your cap directly behind the powder charge.

There's nothing special about an in-line rifle that makes it more effective than a traditional rifle. I think that the popularity of in-lines compared to traditional rifles comes from their ease of operation and cleaning, reliability of ignition, weatherproofing, and manufacturer hype of "magnum" powder charges and flat trajectories. In reality, most rifles won't live up to the advertisements.

That said, next year I hope to be hunting with a flint lock and patched ball. Now to decide between the Lyman GPR, Deerstalker, or Trade Rifle...

I will second the suggestion of a .54 Green Mtn bbl on a Renegade. I have one, and with twenty year younger eyes, and a rest could cloverleaf @ 50yds using primitive sights! Now, my quandry is I can't use the sights and I am trying to figure out how to mount a peep. Can't bring myself to mount a scope on it like I have on my inline and sidelock.
Boy, it is fun to shoot a flinter though!Works on deer too!

I just bought a NEF SS muzzle loader and other than the fiber optic sights, it is not 10% of a jump in accuracy of any thing else when comparing a true "traditional" matchlock smooth bore to a rifled flint lock. Traditional is just how far back you want to go! I have no problem with no scope or lead bullets for a primitive season, but a muzzle loader is just that, it loads one round from the front. About those magnum charges. How many buffalo were killed with 70-90 grains of black powder from a Sharps at a heck of alot longer range than 75 yards? P.S. I should get some sort of advantage because of my stupid extendable ram rod!!!

quote:

Originally posted by loud-n-boomer:
Reading through these discussions, I feel like I am the only one who still hunts with a tradional muzzleloading rifle.

Don't feel bad. I sold my Thompson Center Omega because I liked my Hawken .58 cal Caplock "that much better"

The inline is capable of using 150 gr's of powder. It uses a lighter, sub caliber bullet in a sabot for higher velocity. It extends the lethal range by at least 100 yd's.
THAT is what is wrong with it in a primitive season. It removes the hunt to get close portion of the sport.
Accuracy is no better then a sidelock and is sometimes worse but that is beside the point. The point is that it makes it easier to kill at long range. Just the fact that it loads from the muzzle and only has one shot does not turn it into a primitive weapon. Some of you would love to have it developed to the lethality of a .50 BMG.
The excuse of it being easy to clean is hogwash, it is bought to shoot farther to gain an advantage over other hunters and to kill animals that a poor hunter can't get close to. Food plot shooting from an elevated house with a peep hole to shoot from. Real sport, real hunting and breathless from the excitement! Hardest thing done is to walk to the dead deer. Just think, you can walk out into a pond and submerge the gun and it will shoot. Again, an advantage over other hunters so the race is on among everyone in the woods.
I find that way of shooting undesirable and sold my rifles long ago after a few kills. I use side locks, a muzzle loading pistol, bows and revolvers to hunt with.
I have neighbors that use 7mm mags, .300 mags, 30-06's, .308's and inlines. Hard to get over a 60 yd shot here. I hear shot after shot all season but all of them think they are under gunned. None of them can hunt and none can shoot for beans. It takes each of them 10 shots per deer. As soon as they hear about something that shoots farther, they run and buy it but can't hit a deer at 30 yd's.
I don't care what you use to hunt with. I can kill deer to 100 yd's offhand with a revolver but some of you need a closed blind with a rifle rest or shooting sticks. Yes the inline can kill farther in the right hands but I would say 80% of guys can't utilize that advantage so it is just a mental problem.
Now don't get upset. I am talking about the average hunter, not those of you that shoot all year and know how to hunt.
The whole thing I am saying is that I don't like the inline for myself but might buy one with a round ball twist. It burns me up that they don't make any. It is not the concept that bothers me, it is the shoot farther, magnumitis thing that does. It is the chance of the gun not firing and the shorter distance that makes primitive hunting a sport. I would like it to remain that way, not a race to equal a cartridge rifle. Smokeless in a muzzle loader---What humbug!

quote:

Smokeless in a muzzle loader---What humbug! homer

Nah....its humburger! If its a state with a ML'er season and the inlines, scopes, sabots, and etc are allowed then its quite traditional to use whatever you happen to like. My state don't have and never did have a primitive or traditional black powder season. Its all in where you live and what that states position is on ML'ing, and whether they want a primitive or a ML'er season to hunt in.

Dave

Being legal does not make sporting. Soon all of the primitive season will be gone and high powers will be allowed. There is just too much friction among archers, primitive gun users and high power hunters. Each of us should have hunting time to persue the way we love to hunt. I don't want high power rifles used while I am bowhunting although I can use a bow in rifle season. I don't want high power rifles used when I am using a flintlock although I can use my flintlock in rifle season. All of that is fine depending on how sporting a hunter is but it should not go backwards. The states that suggest taking some of archery season away to add a primitive season are wrong. The answer is to extend seasons, add days or weeks. A late season for primitive guns is great and I did great in January in PA and OHIO. Nothing as much fun as tracking deer in snow with a flintlock.
I would love to see a long archery season, a season for inlines, then high powers, then the primitive guns. Mix this up any way but archery should always be first because it is the hardest. All harder ways to hunt should be allowed in rifle season but never the other way around.
The only thing that made a compound bow more deadly was the release and all it did was increase the accuracy, not the distance. It is the same as working the most accurate load for the flintlock, any gun or having a better trigger pull. I don't see anyone wanting to hunt deer with a high power with a 20# trigger pull. To compare the compound to the recurve and say it shoots farther for hunting is wrong because any distance gained is so small it doesn't matter. Even a crossbow is a short distance weapon.
My take is that everyone wants to encroach into short range seasons with long range weapons because of greed. All long range shooters have their own hunting time and have had them forever. What more do you want?
To bicker among ourselves to use more advanced weapons in primitive season shows a loss of sportsmanship. The advantages of the inline places it in the high power seasons.
What is wrong with using all types of guns in their own seasons? Can't the inline guys use a flintlock or a percussion in primitive? Can't they use a bow in archery season? NO, they just can't stand to let a deer go by without killing it. They can't stand to see another hunter kill a deer and want to shoot it out from under the short distance hunter.
The inline and scopes have done more to destroy sportsmanship then any other weapon.
Work to get your own season, don't take ours away.

As I said before if the primitive season only allowed bore size bullets and iron sights the difference is nearly none. In lines do not allow 150 grains with heavy lead bullets and when you are launching a brick, that 200 fps goes away fast. If you have to don't allow sabots or scopes! Try telling buffalo Bill you can not use 70 grains of black powder and not kill beyond 75 yds. Its all in elevation of sights and very repeatable. It is not the gun as much as the sabots and scopes! Use a smooth bore matchlock if you want tradition.

Why not! I am sure I can do very well with a smoothbore matchlock and might just build one.
Let me ask you a question. Why can't I use my BPCR, 45-70, that drops like a rock, in muzzle loader season? Can you find any difference in the way it shoots compared to an inline other then stuffing a bullet down the bore or loading a cartridge? It is still a single shot! To tell the truth, my rifle does not shoot as flat as an inline but it is not legal. I know, I know, you still stuff the bullet down the bore---big deal. How many inline shooters are using a big lead boolit???? Tell the truth now! Those that do are close to the idea of a muzzle loader, good for them, they are sportsmen.
I challenge any inline shooter to shoot side by side with me with my .54 Hawken, round ball, on your feet, offhand at 200 yd's. I will make you look sick. Can I kill a deer that far? Yes but I need to have the exact range, adjust the sight, increase the charge and shoot good. Lay a scoped inline in crossed sticks and 200 yd's is duck soup.
Ease of killing is the motivation, nothing else.
As soon as archery season opens here, I hear rifle shots because of greed. I hear shots all night because of greed. I hear multible shots in muzzle loader season because the jerk is using his high power because of greed.
Sportsmanship and the challange of the hunt has gone the way of the dodo bird. I will never be impressed with anyone that shoots a deer with an inline using a pistol bullet with a sabot and fake black powder or smokeless. If you want to impress me, shoot your deer with a flintlock pistol and a round ball. How about a matchlock pistol? Oh, I see, it is too hard! Can I interest you in a spear? I guess not, it would have to be loaded in a barrel and shot at 3000 fps.
It is only your sportsmanship, scruples, hunting ability and love of the hunt that is important to you alone. It is how you feel about yourself that is important, not how big a buck you killed way out there so you can brag. I have more respect for you when you kill a doe at 10 yd's with a revolver or a bow then a big buck shot at 500 yd's with a high power. How do you feel about yourself?
I would love every state to require only flintlocks or earlier for primitive seasons. I would still get my deer but don't know about the rest of you.
I don't like the excuse that the state allows anything, it is YOU and your self esteem that is important.

Hey bfr, you sound like if someone don't see and hunt your way there must be something lacking in their sportsmanship. Seem to think you're the best shot on the forum from reading your post. Pretty stuck on yourself and your chosen hunting methods I see. My state don't have a primitive ML'ing season, said it once will say it again, if and when they get around to ever having one I'll decide what to shoot. Humburger is very good however......I have my deer ground into deerburger too....its also very good. Shame you don't live closer, we would do some shooting....

Must really get to you....worrying about how everyone else is hunting....and whether it is up to your standards. Air pretty thin up there

Dave

If you can out shoot me at 200 yds, WHAT in the Hell are you bitching about! Unless your talking flint lock, muzzle loading rifles are basically a barrel with a cap fired breach plug and a stock attached. My NEF has an exposed hammer, so it is not a heck of alot better than a 1840's cap ignited rifle firing a lead conical. The nef in 45-70 is legal for primitive season in several states because it is a design from pre 1900. FYI a muzzle loader with a lead bullet is not a heck of a step down from a 45-70 Sharps. As for the 200 yd round ball varmint gun, YEA OK. I hope your gun has 1700's sights, meaning basically just a front sight. When you take some time to get off your 10' tall horse and come back down to earth, realize, the goal is to get more people hunting so in 25 years Hillary and the likes won't be able to ban it all together. I do not feel one bit guilty to go out with my muzzle loader with 80 grains of loose 777 , really who gives a S**t what kind of non smokeless powder it is" with my bullshop conicals and fiber optic sights and kilt me a deer at most likely under 50 yds, "statistically where most are killed" , guess I don't need that sabot do I. I won't feel elite, and I sure am not trying to impress you or anyone else! In Nebraska they are begging us to kill as many Deer in all seasons because the population has exploded. FYI the only reason I don't shoot sabots is because it is the same rifle I want to use on Co elk and that is there law and I have no issues with it. I too would like to shoot off hand at 200, because that was one of my best areas shooting highpower with the AR or the Garand, Last but not least if you want to dress up like Danll Boone or Davie Crocket and use you flintlock feel free, cause it does not bother me in the least for some one to enjoy hunting how they think it should be done. Most of the hunters don't want to go back to the 1700's for there rifle, only 1840's or so.

Like I said, I just don't like the inline myself. I would love to see each state have a 2 week season just for them. Why doesn't a state with too many deer not add seasons?
I only like to see every hunting style for each season to put all hunters on an equal footing.
If the law in your state calls it a primitive season, that is the kind of weapon that should be used. An inline, sure, but no scopes and sabot's. Then they should have an all out inline season, no high powers. Then the rifle guys can have their season. Each lower class weapon can be used in all seasons.
If the state calls it a muzzle loader season then all bets are off and I don't care what you use. PA had the best with the season late and only flintlocks allowed. You should hear the inline guys cry. They had the whole gun season but still want to encroach on the primitive season. When will it end? Do any of you want the states to just call it deer season for 2 months? Use anything, anytime?
Each season was fought hard for, by archers, primitive hunters and so on. Why do guys have to creep into each others season with more advanced ammo? (Not the inline itself, it is not new, just the stuff being shot from them.) Pressure from inline shooters has forced some states into allowing it. Scopes were next to be allowed. Soon the 30-06 will be legal. It is old and primitive---WHY NOT?
My argument is the same as states that say a shotgun can only be used with a single ball or slug. Ohio is one. The reason was population density is too high and land too flat for high power rifles. You can't use a pistol chambered for a rifle cartridge. Muzzle loaders were legal also because of limited range. Now enter the sabot for both. They shoot farther, the shotgun has a greatly extended range. How long before the state will outlaw the ammo?
If it is called a primitive season then that is all that should be allowed. Take off the scope and load a bore size boolit. No smokeless powder.
But this argument will go on forever and never be done with.

I've owned several inline muzzleloaders but what I enjoyed hunting with most is with the traditional caplock or flintlock with wood stocks. Using T/C Renegades and Cabelas Hawkens, I've taken some pretty nice mulies. I've since given away all my muzzleloaders to my children but I'm going to get back into it by building a .54 Hawken like I've done before, complete with brass furniture, browned barrel, and buckhorn sight.

I don't care if others around me hunt with the latest inline using scopes, tru-glo inserts, sabots, pyrodex, camouflage clothing, goretex, etc. That's their privilege. Personally, I enjoy hunting in the way folks did 150 years or more ago. To me, there is more to hunting than just getting the meat.

Namibiahunter