John, I can't tell if you're a moderator or an instigator. Yes I owned a Savage, in fact two of them. They were the very first guns I owned that I could call my own and they were bought for me because they were the most my dad could afford (which meant they were the cheapest). To ME, they fit right there with Mossberg, Iver-Johnson, and H&R. I am entitled to MY OPINION aren't I?

I'm sorry to hear about your state, but some of ours aren't that repressive. I don't need a special card to buy ammo here or to buy a gun. I can go into WalMart and buy a muzzleloader right off the SHELF, it's not even locked up. Because YOU have to live with that kind of crap doesn't mean the rest of us want to invite that. (BTW, your rationale is sickly weak. Delaware doesn't allow centerfire rifles either, but I own 6 of them from .375 H&H to .243. When I want to hunt with them, I book a hunt to where I CAN shoot them and there's no law on the books that says I can't shoot them on any range here.)


Secondly, I clean my guns every time I fire them whether they are 777 or smokeless. If you like being lazy and slovenly, I suppose that's your prerogative. Did you ever serve in the military? If you did, you're just getting even now I suppose.

Thirdly, in Delaware we call it PRIMITIVE weapons season. Smokeless powder, regardless of what some of these clowns claim to be a "substitute" for black powder, isn't "primitive". If I want centerfire preformance, I use one. My T/C is deadly at ranges that exceed my comfort zones anyway and I see no useful purpose of trying to force feed a "modern" firearm into a "primitive" season.

And fourth, Savage is playing with itself IN MY OPINION. Some of you've been snorting gunpowder too long to know about Murphy's Law. Introducing modern smokeless powder into the muzzleloading retro era is eventually going to kill or maim someone. Though on this forum you can obviouls find a plethora of reloaders, you, like taxidermists are a minority in real life. YOU know what the capabilities and dangers are of overloading or mixing powders. If you are capable of being honest for 5 seconds in your life, you know that we have people among our ranks who should not be entrusted to a firearm without supervision. That's the guy who's going to kill or maim himself or maybe you or I. A firearm is the most patient threat to life and limb available to humanity. It can sit in a corner, hang over a fireplace, or set in a gun cabinet for 100 years without ever bothering a soul, but it's just being patient. It's waiting for some fool to make a mistake, abuse it or misuse it before it hurts someone.

You can crow all you want because you're safe in this barnyard. But the fox doesn't live here. He's across the fence however, listening and he knows where you are already.

As for the Model 70, you are correct and I mistated the issue. The 73 gun would not extract, however. I owned a Mauser when Woolco sold them for $35 out of a barrel in the front of their store. It was THAT claw extractor that broke. I could plead old age memory problems, but either way I screwed up the story. Doesn't mean I have to like either the silly assed 3 position safety or the claw extractor, which I DON'T.

George,
I'm not an instigator but when you make the comments you do, it just begs for a question about your experience with the subject.
A Savage that was bought new 30 or more years ago isn't much to compare with what they are making today, let me assure you of that. I know too many folks around here that have them in centerfire models in about every configuration, and the MLs like mine, that to a man prefer them over their beloved M700 varmint specials, M70s and Rugers. They aren't as pretty and the synthetic models have a lousy, cheap "tupper ware" stock, but they are rugged, reliable, and very accurate...right out of the box. In fact, I have yet to see one be beaten on a 100yd 5 shot group by ANY out of the box rifle from Remington, Winchester or Ruger. They're also a good bit cheaper than the others mentioned. If all of that adds up to a POS, you must have some very lofty standards... or you don't know what you're talking about.
My rationale being weak is also your opinion. I also own several centerfire rifles, and I do book hunts on a yearly basis where I can use them. I fire several thousand rounds per year through them at my local ranges. But that isn't the same as hunting around home. And that's where most of us spend the majority of our hunting days afield...and because of that I'm supposed to use an inferior weapon? In my state we have "muzzleloader" season. That means any rifle that loads from the muzzle is legal, and sabots, scopes, pellets or smokeless powder are as well.
Believe me, I wish my home state was not as restrictive as it is, I truly envy folks who live elsewhere. But the point remains that we still get to buy everything you can.
As for cleaning the Savage ML, your remarks show your total lack of knowledge about the rifle...or myself. I only clean the bore when it is a benefit to accuracy or when I'm done with it for an extended period of time. Daily cleaning of the barrel typically does nothing to gain accuracy in these guns, in my experience. I might dry patch the bore between shots, if it helps the accuracy of a particular load, but in general that procedure is needless. Cleaning the barrel with solvent more often than every 40 to 50 shots hasn't proven to be a benefit,IME. I do wipe down the exterior after each use!
And finally...restricting the use of smokeless powder because some moron might blow himself up is just denying the real truth. They can do the exact same thing with BP, in fact they are more likely to, given that it IS an explosive! Excuse me, but more hunter education is what's needed, not more restrictions to "protect" us from ourselves.

Let's take an old savage made many years ago. Let's take the Model 340 bolt action in 30-30 caliber. You couldn't drive enough tractor trailers full of them that I couldn't sell all them. Why you think that is for a "pos" savage?

Sorry about this being off topic.

Savage gave the shooter an honest good accurate rifle for a very fair price, still does today.

Joe

OK, John, that's more like it. You don't say anything I can't agree with there. I don't know that I have "lofty" standards, but I was junk yard poor as a kid and young adult living on a military salary of the 60's, 70's and 80's. I HAD to shoot the cheaper brands of guns or rely on finding a better quality used one in a pawn shop. I bought that Mauser, remember. I swore if I was ever able to, I'd never own another "low end" firearm. Now I don't think I ever got stupid and drooled over the double rifles or the Kreigoffs, but I always felt a bit out of place going to a big shindig shooting event with a cheap gun while everyone toted Brownings, Berettas, and Ruger #1's. Once I found the funds and got the feel of a quality gun, I never looked back. That's sounds "elitist" when I see it in print, but only those who've been there know that feeling. I'm over 69 and been able to see both sides. I like this one better and I really shouldn't be so hard on others who live in that world now. I don't figure,however, guys who own a computer are that poor quite yet and to shoot thousands of rounds like we do, I know they ain't.

BTW, I've taught Hunter Ed for over 20 years now and all the teaching in the world won't help some of those people. They can take a test and they can pass the safety criteria during the class, but you and I both know there are just some people you would feel uneasy with if they shared the woods or the fields with you. I see a lot of those come through my classes every year. You probably don't have that "pleasure". LOL

Starmetal, the reason you could sell several tractor trailer loads of 340s in .30-30 is because they were virtually the only bolt action 30-30s ever offered. I believe there were some Model 54 Winchesters made, but that is just about the entire roster. THAT is why, nothing else...

I had a 340 in trip deuce; what a piece of junk! Any time a gunmaker can take a .222 and make it inaccurate, he has done something!

My reasons were more along the lines that they are one hell of a cast bullet shooter.

Joe

George,
I like a quality gun myself, and I own a few of them. BUT, performance and utter reliability under adverse conditions are what's most important to me, not how they look, who made them or what they cost me. Some of the worst guns I've owned also happened to be some of the most expensive and most beautiful. Going on price or looks alone is no guarantee of a top shelf gun, either for bench shooting or hunting.
And yes, I'm sure there are folks in my area that I'd rather not be near while hunting season is open. Fortunately, 99% of the country around here is private so we can control who is hunting near us.

I knew some of you would jump on me! Did I strike a chord?
I was not bragging, just stating how I feel about all of it. I don't care what anyone hunts with if they know how to use what they have.
I am just disgusted with what I see every season and the boobs with new high falluten guns taking shots that can't be made with any gun.
Come take a walk with me in the spring when I hunt shrooms and count the dead deer. Better bring a big piece of paper. I found 12 last spring in less then an acre of ground.
Come on guys, talk to me about hunting and hunters. Has anyone ever learned when to shoot and when not to? No, that smokeless inline is not going to make any of you a better hunter. I will stick to my feelings about it until the day when every single shot I hear results in a dead and recovered deer.
If I rubbed anyone the wrong way, maybe you deserved it. To get mouthy about my opinion might just mean a guilty conscience.
To read some of the responses, I see I am not alone in how I feel. A lot of you just don't want to express it the way I did and raise more smoke.
If you can't do any good with any gun or bow, a new one is not going to fix the problem.

I never had any trouble cleaning my ML's, just used the soapy water in a bucket routine and got it done in about 15 minutes.

I built my first muzzleloader, a CVA 45 cal. Kentucky Rifle, when I was 14 in my 8th grade shop class; (try doing that in school today). I used it for hunting and shooting everything that moved; well almost, and went through tons of round balls and pounds of powder. Along the way I, being the normal curious kid I was, put a couple ounces of BP on a concrete floor and watched it burn. It didnt burn, it exploded in one big flash. Later I started handloading smokless cartridges and tried the same thing with smokless powder; it burned slowly compared to black powder. According to what I have read and seen, black powder burns much much faster than the fastest smokeless powder, and because of this creates less pressure or a smaller pressure curve.

From what I have read, it is the fact that using a flask is holding almost a pound of class A explosives over the barrel of a just fired muzzleloader that makes muzzleloader companies and black powder makers uneasy and recommend against using them, not that the powder might be crushed into a fine ffff grain. For the same reason they reccomend you dont pour powder out of a horn; although I knew a guy who did. He counted to two and said it was a good load.

When I was a teen and knew no better a friend had a flint rifle he sold and he gave me a pound of ffff powder. Not having the internet to turn to, or anyone else to warn me I shot every ounce of it in my rifle with no ill effects; the standard load was 70 grains and a 128 round ball with spit lubed pillow ticking patch.

The closest thing I ever had to a blowup was when I had the bright idea of opening up the nipple flash hole to get more fire to the powder. I used a Cutting torch file set and opened it up, and upon shooting it the hammer flew back to full cock, and I had half of a rocky-the-raccoon black mask on the side of my face. Boy was I lucky there to not get hurt.

Oh and BTW, I thought all along that it WAS an inline muzzleloader the guy had a pic of in the front of these post; looked like a cheap inline with a ramrod thimble at the front of the barrel and the fiber-fire front sight. A friend bought one and it looked like it, only not blown up.

My .02
Eterry

What a bunch of snob hunters, and full of BS!

One guy brags how he is a better hunter because he can shoot more deer than all of the inline hunters put together! Why would that make someone a good hunter? Sounds like he might have too many deer and must not be up to the task of thinning the herd.

Now if that hunter issued a challenge where there is an unusually low deer population, perhaps less than 1 per 10 square miles and he claimed that he could get a deer because of his superior hunting skills then that might warrant some congratulations. BUT, to be able to shoot fish in a barrel and then brag is downright silly!

If your hunting is that great, why are you using a rifle at all, what's the matter not a good enough Bow Hunter to put meat on the table?
Don't tell me that you use one of those new fangled compound bows, cuz that is just slovenly hunting!
If you don't use a handmade bow that you cut down the tree and handmade the bowstring then you must really suck as a hunter.

Since you are so into authentic hunting please don't tell me that you hunt with a Flintlock rifle with store-bought Black Powder and store-bought flints! How do you get to your hunting property, I hope you don't use ANY motorized contraptions because they were not invented during the BP heyday.

This could go on forever, but I too am sick of your bigotry of other hunter’s weapons.

edge.

PS go to the patent office and you will see an inline flintlock rifle from the 1800's. Inlines aint that new!

quote:

Originally posted by georgee:
...A firearm is the most patient threat to life and limb available to humanity. ...

WRONG AGAIN! That would be the "people" who vote for democrats.

quote:

Also originally posted by georgee:
...Now I don't think I ever got stupid... ...

I would strongly encourage you to "avoid" taking a poll on that.

quote:

I would strongly encourage you to "avoid" taking a poll on that.

Dang, Hot Core, That was funny. LOL

Reloader

Edge, I stop with two to three archery deer every year, then go to revolvers. I have had no need for a rifle for many years, in fact I have not had to take out my smokepoles for several years because after I get meat im my freezer and get my neighbors their meat, I quit hunting. This year it was four, some years it is seven depending on who needs meat.
I started archery hunting in Ohio when there were almost no deer in the state. I shot three the first year I bow hunted,(recurve) one in Ohio, one in Michigan and one in PA. I never failed to get an Ohio or PA deer and the bowhunter average deer kill was one every 15 years.
I admit that hunting is easier with all of the deer now.
When I get time, I will tell all of you why I feel as I do. Maybe you will understand better. I am not trying to get down on any of you or what you hunt with, just venting about what I have seen and heard in 57 years of hunting. Don't take me the wrong way! Sometimes somebody's comment sets me off, making me remember things I have seen, it is not against the person that made the comment but how it related to something else.

bfrshooter, you sound so stupid. Just because you find dead deer does not mean it was shot and not found, deer die of all kinds of things.

Some times you should read what you are about to post, before you push the POST NOW button. People don't take what you said wrong, they take it for what you said.

I don't think you impressed anyone with your self anointed holier than thou attitude. You kill a lot of deer, great so do a lot of us. But you don't see us blowing our own horn.

Do you feel so bad about yourself that you have to make yourself look better than others. Sounds like you did not get a lot of love when you were younger and require special attention in your latter years.

What you are doing is trolling for attention. And you got it.

Boy! I hate I started this thread.

The reason I started this thread is because I would like to try some of the older primitive weapons, but I have always heard all the stories about the long cleaning time. I have heard that after about three shots you have to stop and clean again, so I figured that by now someone had probably tested smaller amounts of smokeless powder for muzzle loaders, such as the way the 45/70 was changed from black powder to smokeless.

This is why I have always stayed away from black powder. I have only shot a muzzle loader once when I was about twelve. So I am quite ignorant on the subject.

As primitive weapon seasons go they have became a joke! Here in MS we can use scopes (of any kind), syn. stocks, stainless barrels, and now we can use any single shot rifle of a pre 1900 make as long as its over 38 cal. And of course everyone is buying the H&R handi rifle, and sticking a scope on it.

I don’t mind the pre 1900 single shots (if they made you use open sights) as much as the in-line muzzle loaders of today. At least the pre 1900 single shots look and shoot like they did 100 years ago.

This year I used an 1874 Sharps replica in 45/70 (with open sights), and enjoyed it very much. This is what got me to thinking about maybe even trying something older.

Buck,

Hot Core, be careful yourself. You list yourself as a Carolinas and we ALL "know" about that area. (I was born and raised there) So tell us; are you a brass ankle, a Geechee, a swamprat, a sandlapper, a holler hooter, or just a mountain apple? Please don't tell me you're one of them damned transplanted Yankees that keep carpetbagging into our territory.

Hey George, he may be a Tarheel too!!

Joe

Hey Buck,

If you can find one of the older hawkin style flinters that TC made, they have a hooked breech plug. You knock the brass wedge out of the stock that hold the barrel down, then the barrel just hinges right out of the stock. They just just clean the barrel, you don't get the stock wet or nothing. You of course clean up little around the lock area and season end you can remove the lock clean inside, oil, and put back. This is real simple and easy to do. Whoever told you about the horror stories apparently didn't like cleaning at all. The percussion hawkin style TC's are the same way. Tell you the truth, I think the inlines (some models) are harder to clean.

I have a Ruger Old Army stainless revolver. I just love that gun. When I'm done shooting, I remove the grips, I remove the nipple and put them on a metal right, then I shove all that, except the grips, in the dishwasher. Boy it comes out shining like the dishes. No hassle cleaning that blackpowder gun.

Part of the fun to shooting blackpowder to me is all the smoke and smell, I love it. You also look like you worked in a coal mine too when you're done shooting it.

Joe

Buck, if you get a rifle with a slow twist for round balls and use round balls you can shoot it about 10-15 times without cleaning, or at least I have. I have a 45 with a slow (1-72?)twist, (see above post), and used to carry a mouthfull of patches and went shooting/hunting. I used round balls and a ball starter and had no problems until after about 10 shots, then could with a little force go another 4-5 times. I would then run a brush through it and it helped some.
I have a 54 cal with a 1-48 twist and I can only shoot it 6-8 times until it needs swabbing, maybe less if you use REAL bullets or maxi-balls. I started carrying a cleaning jag in my possibles bag and would dry swab it in the field, it helped some.
I really enjoy my frontstuffers, though I havent used them in a couple years. This thread makes me want to load them up and go shooting, so dont feel bad about posting this thread. The ones you should feel bad about are the ones no-one responds to.

Eterry

Where to begin? The guys that straffed a flock of pheasants on the ground, The jerk that let every duck land in the decoys before shooting, the sob that sprayed me with pellets so the pheasant would not be shot by someone else, the shotgun slugs that whizzed past my head, the bunch that emptied their slug guns at deer running across a field over 300 yd's away, the jerks that tried to steal my deer,( More then once.) all of the stolen deer from cabins in PA, all of the hunters around here that stand in the fields and shoot at running deer in the thick woods until they are empty and never go see if some were hit. The ones that shoot long range and when the deer doesn't drop, they never go look to see if one was hit, just wait for another. The poachers in Michigan that would sell deer to so called hunters drinking at the tavern. The night hunters, the hunters that drive around in trucks to shoot on property they have no permission on. The jerks that held up a friend to take his deer. The guy that shot a squirrel and put it on a fence post to rot. Those that cut my fence to cross my property and let my animals out. Those that stand outside my fence and shoot into my woods. The ones that dump deer parts on my road. The one that snuck into my woods and cut all the trees down around his stand for a clear shot.
Do you want me to go on? I can do this for days and days. Don't tell me I think I am better--I am! Fully 50% or more of hunters I have run into are SLOBS.
If any of you complain about how I feel, maybe you fall into this catagory.

That's sort of funny BFR, I was thinking it might be YOU. I've hunted in WV for years and I've seen my share of "slob hunters" but most of those were locals that "hunt" year round from the road. Maybe you should start cleaning up around home before you start indicting others of us that aren't anything like you describe.

bfrshooter, I have not see all that you have and I have never experienced a fraction of what you described. I own land and have hunted for about 25 plus years now. It sounds to me like nobody likes you.
But to lump all hunters into the same group as the people that hunt around you is ridicules and insulting. You don't know any of us and to outright automatically put us into your slob hunter category just because we think you are a total ass here is wrong on your part.
Take a good long look at yourself in the mirror, it may be you that is the problem, not the other hunter or people.

Now take that shovel out of your hands, and quit digging a hole that you soon won't be able to dig yourself out of.

I have seen more in Ohio than anywhere. Next is PA, Michigan and here in WV in that order.
The worst was on a scout camp I hunted in Ohio. The caretaker found 30 dead doe in 1/4 mile of his bridle path. Seems as if the jerks were shooting every deer they seen, would go see if any had antlers, if not, they left the deer lay and rot. How many more were killed?
No, it is not me, it is just that I spend a lot of time out in the field when not hunting myself. If any of you have not experienced any of this, you are lucky.
I have not accused any of you of anything and if none of you are guilty of these kinds of things, I am sorry if I rub you the wrong way.
It is only that a certain comment will bring back a memory that is close to home and I might respond wrong.
I apologize!
Change of subject; I live in a development with private roads. I just found five tires with rims attached and two bags of scattered garbage down the other road. So forgive me if I get angry with some people!
I should know by now that those kind do not come on this site and you are all more like me and can't stand the slobs.
Can I be forgiven?

Thanx BFR, now we can agree on the venting and the issue. I own a very small plot of land connecting to state hunting land, and I, too, find tires, appliances, and furniture dumped in the ditches of my land. Then it becomes MY responsibility to remove the. And YES, it pisses me off. I'd like to catch the SOB just one time doing it and I might end up in jail, but I know I'd feel a whole helluva lot better.

quote:

Originally posted by george roof:
Thanx BFR, now we can agree on the venting and the issue. I own a very small plot of land connecting to state hunting land, and I, too, find tires, appliances, and furniture dumped in the ditches of my land. Then it becomes MY responsibility to remove the. And YES, it pisses me off. I'd like to catch the SOB just one time doing it and I might end up in jail, but I know I'd feel a whole helluva lot better.

But is not the local hunter doing it, it is the local residents.

bfrshooter, sure we can get on with our daily scheduled program here.

bfrshooter, please don't come near where I hunt, we don't seem to have that problem....and now that you mention it...it seems to be following YOU!

Perhaps a pattern is emerging on theses jacked deer and poor shooting SOB's!

I am not insinuating anything, but......

bfr

I wonder if the meat you get your neighbors or friends is legal. By that I mean if you're filling their tag, it isn't. If they are legal tags that are yours in the various states you mentioned you hunted in, then that's probably legal giving it to them.

Yes, I tag my deer and buy all the extra stamps. I just don't need a license because I am over 65.
I was wrong about the tires! The yuckers must have been driving down the road and pitching them out. I found 15!

With all the tags and stamps and special season you can certainly accumulate alot of deer especially in the three states that you are hunting. Question: I know it's off topic for this thread, but since you hunt WVA, did they or did they not ban the 22 centerfires and the AR15 specifically?

Joe

I will have to check on it Joe, I threw out last years regulations but can download the new ones. I will see what I can find.

quote:

Originally posted by bfrshooter:
Most modern muzzle loader steel is capable of holding the pressures from smokeless but none of you has stated the obvious reason they can't! The brass case that contains the pressure! Savage went through a lot of trouble to develop a way to do it without the brass.
.

Er-uh... say what??? Brass cases aren't capable of containing much pressure except at the very head & modern ML steels (non stainless) (usually 1117 or 12L14) are only @ half the tensile strength of smokeless powder gun steel AISI 4140. Savage just used modern gun steel for their barrels. No big engineering feat there. IMO, they also screwed up the ML people's argument for a seperate season for ML's. Now there's electronic ignition. Seems nothing's sacred these days. Might as well just shoot a suppository gun as onbe of these high powered single shot rifles that just take a few more seconds to load .

Wow!........what a lot of debate about what guns are politically correct to use for hunting...........ON A ML FORUM! I guess if its a ML'er it must be OK....huh? I used to spend a lot of time debating the different ML'er crowds over the name calling and "I'm better than you" opinions that pop up in these threads......but its more fun to spend that same time shooting my ML'er and enjoying myself. However some of these threads go so far beyond rational thinking that to not respond would be irresponsible......

I've found when you have to start name calling in a debate you've already lost on any factual basis........ your're swinging wildly and backing up at best......... certainly not convincing anyone of your opinions.

I live in Maine and when I start hearing the word "primitive" thrown around concerning ML'er hunting it always brings a smile to my face......you see I do live in a pretty primitive state and our ML'er season is just that.....a ML'er season. When ML'ing started up here there were already inlines with scopes and sabots on the market so when they created our ML'er season it was for ALL ML'ers.....scopes - inlines - sidehammers - 209 primers - smokeless/smokeless substitutes/and blackpowder and all other flavors. Everybody got along and no one decided anyone else "couldn't hunt" or "wasn't sporting" because they used a different style ML'er.......and so you know, we don't have a lot of deer.....heck its only been in the last couple years that the ML'er kill got above 1000 deer....FOR THE ENTIRE STATE!

But then a couple years ago along came them "primitive" boys with petitions and bills to introduce, you see they decided they needed their "own" season before anybody else hunted cause they hunted more "primitive" you know. Up here we have a month of archery than a month of centerfire and finially a 7-14 day ML'er season. Of course this is after everyone else is done, the temps have fallen down around zero and the deer have been pounded for 8 solid weeks, then they let us ML'er boys have a go at it. Well the "primitive" boys wanted their season at the beginning and reminded us they hunt with this "primitive" handicap.......course this don't take into account the use of topo maps-aerial photos-gore tex-climbing treestands-modern camo patterns-two way radios-state of the art insulation and footwear-binos for spotting-and OH MY GOSH......ATV's and SUV's to get back and forth.....theres that grin popping out again . Well they got whupped soundly with that plan so then they went after the late season ML'ers like myself to remove the use of smokeless powder and scopes to make it into a "primitive" season more to THEIR liking. Well the state reminded them it was a ML'er season and open and welcome to all who choose to legally hunt with any style they like. I'm sure they're somewhere regrouping after that lesson in common sense but maybe they left to spread manure in other fields .....Who Knows?

Now if some ML'er hunters want to brag about how close they need to be to shoot game or how easy it is to clean up that blackpowder mess, I say good for you! Enjoy the sport as you see fit.......just don't feel you gotta change it for others that don't share your opinions. The Savage ML'er is built on the same action and uses the same steel that their ultra mags and safari guns use........they aren't blowing up and maiming ML'ers despite what old TB may try to claim.

I prefer a cheap to shoot, clean burning, low maintance ML'er that will drop a big northern deer at any distance I may encounter him afield while not even concerning myself with what the corrosive effects of the powder from 14 days ago is doing to the inside of my barrel. If you are an inliner using healthy doses of triple seven behind sabots with a scope and 209 ignition I see little difference in the style we hunt or the velocity we are achieving......biggest difference I see is no cloud to look around after shooting and less maintance.

There appears to be more deer all the time in most states south of me so saying that Savage smokeless will destroy any ML'er seasons or restrict them in some way is a weak point at best since more and more states are relaxing regs not increasing them. It also should be noted the Savage shoots well with blackpowder and substitutes.

I've owned quite a few ML'ers in my time.....sidehammers included.......they say a man with actual experience is never a victim to persuasive arguement.....guess that holds pretty true. Don't crowd how someone else chooses to legally ML'er hunt and it will remain a ML'er forum.....otherwise get the admin's to change it to "primitive" Ml'er forum and you won't hear about smokeless powder.

One last note to one of the posts.....I have met two other hunters using Savage ML'ers in this area besides myself.....when you consider how few hunters even hunt ML'er(we can only shoot ONE deer so if you are sucessful in bow or centerfire your done before ML'ing even rolls around) thats pretty interesting in such a "primitive" area

And finially to answer the post starters question.....don't shoot smokeless in any gun not built and intended for it....period. However......you might look into a Savage to see what this debate is all about......since the day I did, I've never considered anything else.Good Hunting!

woods

Well we all know what opinions are like, don’t we. Here in MS it was a different story. We have had primitive weapon seasons for as long as I have been alive. Up until about 15 years ago it was no in-lines, no scopes (of any kind), syn. stocks, stainless barrels. The season was intended to keep the old guns alive and let people experience the way it used to be. If it was simply to thin out more deer they would have extended the rifle season. The way it is now there is no nostalgia to it at all, just a season that you have to use a different gun in.

I think that primitive weapon season should be just that. There is nothing stopping you from using a sym. stock, stainless barrel, in-line during regular rifle season.

Buck,

Sounds like since 15 years ago theres nothing stopping you from using scopes inlines and syn/stainless in ML'er season down there either . That merely confirms my statement that the regs are loosening not tightening in states that once had more repressive ML'er regs.

You tell me.........
"The season was intended to keep the old guns alive and let people experience the way it used to be."

Than I would suggest you hunt completely primitive and leave all thoses nasty old modern contrivances I mentioned in my first post home. Funny though I've never seen a primitive hunter up this way do that......they only want the GUN to appear primitive while they continue to hunt fully surrounded by all types of modern day hunting conveniences......hmmmmm......seems if you don't want your gun to be silver and plastic, you wouldn't want your hunting duds to look out of time frame either........


I used to debate with a real dyed in the wool primitive ML'er and he would go right to the mat over how this primitive experience was of first and utmost importance to him in order to enjoy his chosen method of ML'ing.......then he would private message me to get more insight into reading aerial photos and using a game camera to pattern the deer he hunted.......opps......there comes that grin again

I happen to think ML'ing season should be just that.....a chance to hunt with the ML'er of your choice in any legal way you desire. From the sound of things your state doesn't really have a primitive season anymore either.......unless them scoped silver and plastic inlines spitting sabots out in front of modern day black powder substitutes still falls under the definition of primitive.

Fish and Game departments are increasingly using the ML'er seasons to increase deer kills where the bag limits and seasons are failing to keep numbers in check.....this is a fact not conjecture. Older eyes and iron (not fireglo) sights in that time frame before and after sunrise (which many states allow) especially in dark cedar or spruce overstory combined with overcast conditions will lead to a large number of passed shots or that same deer wounding so quickly pointed at ML'ers using this increased technolgy to shoot deer out to 200yds. I would far rather know my ballistic ability and be able to clearly see at increased distance to make a clean kill than to let the deer of a lifetime walk cause I just can't see him that far away in failing light. But.......like you say.....we all have opinions......thats why modern straight ignition, higher tech ML'ers are outselling the more primitive designs by seven to one(those figures are several years old so the lead may be even larger now). Thats also why Fish and Game departments like the ones in your state are changing the regs to the dismay of hunters like yourself.Don't forget Leave That Modern Stuff Home! at least be true to your convictions.

woods

quote:

From the sound of things your state doesn't really have a primitive season anymore either.......unless them scoped silver and plastic inlines spitting sabots out in front of modern day black powder substitutes still falls under the definition of primitive.

Well you got at least one thing correct.

Buck,

Woodseye,

Yeah, you could say they were loosening up a bit in Mississippi. They can now use break action single shot centerfire rifles chambered in 45-70, 50S+W, and a few other chamberings with mag scopes as well during their MLer season. That's the kind of primitive season I wish my state had

Reloader

Wow Reloader! I guess we can say ol Buck3 comes from a downright "progressive" ML'er state Makes my state keep lookin' sooo "primitive".

Hey Buck........I believe everything I said is right ....I don't shoot from the hip........I did a lot of research into this and most Game Departments make extra $ in some form off of ML'ers. Its why they don't simply allow more deer to be shot in reg season, its also why they want those ever increasing numbers of non-primitive ML'er hunters involved. Hunt in what ever way floats your boat......just don't tell me how to hunt. While you're lookin' for a way to get closer.......I'm lookin' for a good place to rest my gun . Course if hes close....the drag will be shorter.

Reloader, you sound like me......I really should run a patch thru mine soon......but nah....more fun shootin'

woods

quote:

Originally posted by Buck3:
... We have had primitive weapon seasons for as long as I have been alive. ... The season was intended to keep the old guns alive and let people experience the way it used to be. ... The way it is now there is no nostalgia to it at all, just a season that you have to use a different gun in. Buck,

Hey Buck, Is there anything keeping you from Hunting the BP Season with the old BP Rifles that you like so well - in a Traditional style?

quote:

...Up until about 15 years ago it was no in-lines, no scopes (of any kind), syn. stocks, stainless barrels. ...I think that primitive weapon season should be just that. There is nothing stopping you from using a sym. stock, stainless barrel, in-line during regular rifle season.

Now I am confused, your first question on the Thread was wanting information about the use of "Smokeless Powder" in a BP firearm. Now it seems like you are angry that some people actually have firearms that can SAFELY use it.

Perhaps I'm just confused. How `bout straightening me out?

By the way, congratulations on the Miss St thumping of UK in the SEC Tourny.

quote:

“Hey Buck, Is there anything keeping you from hunting the BP Season with the old BP Rifles that you like so well - in a Traditional style?â€

Nope.

quote:

“Now I am confused, your first question on the Thread was wanting information about the use of "Smokeless Powder" in a BP firearm. Now it seems like you are angry that some people actually have firearms that can SAFELY use it.â€

I can understand why you could be confused, but my first question was not a hunting question. I like to shoot as well as hunt, and if smokeless power could be use this would allow me to go to the range and shoot forty, or fifty shots without breaking the gun down and cleaning it several times.

I am not angry about anything. I just don’t see the logic in the current primitive weapons season. My argument is that saying that non-primitive weapons should be allowed in primitive weapons season, is like saying that guns should be allowed in a non-gun season. What’s the difference?

What is gained by the hunter when using a gun that is only %10 different than his regular hunting gun?

Buck,

I got it now, much obliged for the clarification.
---

I sure don't have a guaranteed 100% correct answer to your question about "Why" certain things are allowed that don't seem to fit a rigid definition.

From an old man's view though, it always seems to get back to the $$ Money $$. But, perhaps that is Full-of-Beans.

With more folks participating, more $$ Money $$ gets into Pittman-Robertson Funding which eventually makes it's way back to the Game Departments. If they simply extended the Smokeless Seasons, there would be less money being spent on new BP firearms and thus less cash flow. But, that could be all wrong.

Good Hunting and clean 1-shot Kills.