Yeah, Randy, it did... 50 grains of 5744 with a 435-grain MTI sabot split the stock; the same thing happened at 70 and 80 grains. But only the STOCK split, there was no damage to the action itself.

And the same thing happened with a 600-grain conical at 70 grains of AA5744: the STOCK split.
Again, NO damage to the action.

The "catastrophic failure" happened with 90 grains of 5744 and a 600-grain conical, an absolutely mindless load, even in a cartridge gun.

The 50-grain load of 5744 propelled a 600-grain conical out of the Model 97 at 1830, and the note in the "pressure results" column states "NONE".

All I was saying in the beginning, and what I will continue to say, is this: use your head, pay attention to what you are doing, and the White will shoot smokeless, just like the Savage will. There is nothing so special about the Savage MZ. It may have been tested with smokeless and have the insurance money behind it; so what. So was the White. The little guy always gets left in the wake, and often he has a better product to sell. It is that way with Doc's rifles, as far as I am concerned.

And until you listen in on a conversation between myself and Doc White, do not accuse me of taking Doc out of context, or of "misquoting him altogether". You weren't there, you don't know what he said. I do.

After you read my post go here: http://www.hpmuzzleloading.com/Warnings1.html

HIGH PERFORMANCE MUZZLELOADING Press Release
August 24, 2004
SMOKELESS MUZZLELOADING SAFETY WARNING
HIGH PERFORMANCE MUZZLELOADING host Toby Bridges has been the biggest proponent of the "smokeless powder" Savage muzzleloader ever since the company introduced the system back in 2000. And to date, he has logged more than 35,000 rounds through the Savage Model 10ML II. However, a catastrophic failure while test firing the rifle earlier this year nearly cost him his life.

The tests being conducted back in mid March were to determine the failure point of modern sabots when shooting powders recommended in the Savage Model 10ML II owner's manual. Plus he was testing the longevity of an internal part of the ignition system for Savage Arms. After running a series of shots with 48-grain charges of Accurate Arms 5744, with no excessive pressure signs with the primers or recovered sabots, he moved up to 49 grains of the same powder. And when the trigger was pulled, the rifle literally came apart in front of his eyes. The rear 9 inches of barrel split in several areas, with a 6-inch section of steel disappearing downrange, beyond the 100-yard berm. The 3-9x40 scope was ripped from the bases, and broken in two. The front objective and lens was blown 25 yards forward of the shooting bench, while the rear 3/4ths of the scope passed within inches of the shooter's head and landed in the parking lot 75 yards away. The laminated wood stock was reduced to a pile of splinters.

Fortunately, Bridges was not hit by any of the flying debris and was not injured physically. However, he has this to say about the incident, "Having a pipe bomb literally explode right in your face has an impact on you, whether you're hit by flying metal and wood or not. On the way home from the range that day, I became so shaken when thinking back on the incident that I had to pull off the highway twice to regain my composure. And even though it's been four months since the rifle failed,I still have great difficulty sleeping at night."

HIGH PERFORMANCE MUZZLELOADING web magazine has also been contacted by 3 others who have experienced pressure problems in the Savage "smokeless powder" muzzleloaders. None of the rifles were as severely damaged as the rifle that exploded on Toby Bridges (photos above). And fortunately, one of the other Savage muzzleloader owners only received minor injuries.

No one has been a stronger supporter of the Savage Model 10ML II than Toby Bridges. Early on, he conducted most all of the early testing of this rifle for the company, plus compiled all of the compatible powders for this system. And to date, no one else has logged as many smokeless rounds through a Savage Model 10ML II than he has.

And even with this knowledge of the system and the loads for this rifle, this muzzleloading expert has now witnessed the devastation that can be caused by smokeless powder loads in a rifle of muzzleloading design. Here is a rifle that went through years of development and engineering, and yet was still susceptible to the unpredictable power of modern nitrocellulose-based smokeless powders.

"Savage Arms has not done a very good job of educating the shooting public about the powders, nor the amounts, that can be loaded and shot out of their Model 10ML II. The manual that came with the rifle that exploded on me lists some recommended starting loads, but nowhere does it say these loads should be considered "maximum". In fact, the manual recommends loading a little more or a little less to find the charge that shoots best out of a particular Savage muzzleloader," claims Bridges.

The manual states "Note: The Savage Model 10ML II is designed, engineered and built to withstand the higher pressures of modern smokeless propellants such as those listed above."

The powders listed include IMR-4227, Accurate Arms XMP-5744 and VihtaVuori N110. However, the loose interpretation of "propellants such as those listed above" has resulted in many shooters now loading and shooting powders that are not all that compatible with this system, such as Hodgdon's LIL' GUN. This is a fine rolled powder developed for use in .410 shotshells. Some Model 10ML II shooters are loading and shooting more than 50 grains of this powder to get a saboted 250-grain bullet out of the Model 10ML II muzzle at around 2,700 f.p.e. And such loads are producing in excess of 60,000 p.s.i. inside the muzzleloader's barrel. That's more than the recommended maximum loads for the .300 Winchester Magnum.

The Savage muzzleloader shooter who received minor injuries from the excessive pressures produced in his rifle was shooting a load of LIL' GUN that had been recommended by a Savage engineer.

Early in the production of this system, Savage claimed to have run a series of tests to see what it would take to severely damage one of the rifles. One report was that 90 grains of Red Dot was loaded into one of the rifles, then topped with three saboted 300-grain bullets (900 grains of projectile)...and when the rifle was fired from a remote location, the load only bent the recoil lug. And due to such reports, Model 10ML II shooters continually develop hotter and hotter loads, feeling that the rifle is infallible.

Toby Bridges is very likely the top muzzleloading expert in the country today, with nine books on the topic to his credit, and currently hosts the leading source of high performance muzzleloading information on the internet today. He has never considered any muzzleloader infallible, but had shot the Savage 10ML II more than enough to put all of his trust into the system. Now, after experiencing a catastrophic failure of that system, he's just happy to still be alive.

"I now question if muzzleloading will ever be to the point where smokeless powders can be safely used in a mass produced front-loaded rifle. I feel confident that we now have custom gun makers who have the ability to build such a rifle on a modern center-fire rifle action, using the best quality barrel and internal parts that can withstand the punishment of hot smokeless loads. But, I'm not sure that the average shooter is fully capable of following the stringent loading practices necessary to keep smokeless muzzleloading safe," says Bridges.


Joe

quote:

There is nothing so special about the Savage MZ. It may have been tested with smokeless and have the insurance money behind it; so what.

It is hardly a "so what?"

An Open Letter to Ron Coburn,
CEO of Savage Arms

By Randy Wakeman



April 08, 2005

Mr. Ronald Coburn, CEO
Savage Arms Inc.
100 Springdale Road
Westfield, MA 01085


Dear Mr. Coburn,

Largely as a result of my muzzleloading videos, my reviews on Chuck Hawks' Guns and Shooting Online (chuckhawks.com currently receives over 2,419,500 hits and 388,400 visitors a month--Source: Webalizer web stats), I hear from thousands of hunters and shooter annually, from across the USA, and across the world. As hunting season draws near, the e-mail load has exceeded 200 e-mails a day, with a goodly number of phone calls to augment this.

As a result of the renewed, vibrant interest in your Savage 10ML-II, I have embarked on a great deal of independent research. This includes barrel makers such as Dan Lilja and others, bullet manufacturers such as Barnes, and most of the major powder companies for which I been testing products: Accurate Arms / Western Powders and others.

I've also discussed your product with such luminaries as Doc White, Dr. Ken Oehler, and manufacturers of custom smokeless muzzleloaders such as New Ultra Light Arms and Swing-Lock. NO reputable authority, those with far more knowledge than me, has offered anything but accolades pertaining to the tremendous strength and safety of your product. Perhaps that is why, over the last six years, the 10ML and 10ML-II has the very BEST safety record of any muzzleloader in the industry.

Further, I've heard from consumers who have made honest but foolish mistakes, such as double loading their 10ML-II, and credit the integrity of the design, and your industry-leading 100% proof-testing of barrels with saving their lives.

My 76 years young father has been astonished at the accuracy, soft recoil, and pleased with its ease of use, lack of immediate maintenance, and the crisp AccuTrigger. Dad's last three shots through your 10ML-II resulted in three quick one shot kills: a doe @ 225 yards, a javelina at 125 yards, and a nice boar at about 110 yards. I watched the look of joy on the face of younger shooters, such as 13 year old Harrison Pickett, as he bagged his first wild boar in Texas with your rifle.

I've logged some 3000 shots through ONE of your 10ML-II rifle in the last year alone, in the course of testing various powders, sabots for MMP, and bullets. A couple of these shots found their way into wild boars, caribou, and deer with fabulous results. It exhibits NO wear, despite being used with experimental propellants not yet on the market.

Though I have no reason to denigrate any other custom smokeless maker, they are all using lighter barrel contours than found in your 10ML-II. Having tested and hunted with most modern inlines today, it is apparent to me that the Savage 10ML-II is the most robust, overbuilt, lifetime quality muzzleloader on the market at an affordable price, less than half the investment of many semi-custom guns, and less than many black-powder only guns.

By any known ANSI, SAE, SAAMI, and even CIP specifications, your gun is the only one that exceeds all four. Few companies make their own barrels, none take the time to 100% proof-test that I am aware of. It is both disturbing and a bit disheartening that anyone could purposely, willfully, and vindictively disseminate bad information about your product-but that has happened to their great discredit.

However, the truth wins in the end. By offering a superior product that enables swift, humane harvesting of game-and ensuring clear visibility enhancing the recovering of that game, you have made muzzleloading a better place. Perhaps that is why you personally hunt with a Savage smokeless muzzleloader yourself?

Congratulations and best regards,

Randy Wakeman

There is a great deal that is quite special about the Savage, as you might think with nine years of development, testing, and refining commenced some 16 years ago by Henry Ball. Designed from scratch to shoot smokeless, not only is it the strongest muzzleloader made proved by testing, it is the strongest rifle made. They key features of the 10ML-II are well-protected by patent. Savage defends their intellectual property rights.

The Savage's ramrod weighs 1360 grains via RCBS electrontic scale. Several shooters have shot out their 1360 grain ramrods along with 300 grain saboted projectiles: along with the sabot, you are pushing about a 1700 grain payload out of your barrel. Despite this ridiculous level of complete shooter negligence-- no injuries.

The original design paramenters of the Savage that include a 250% safety factor have saved shooters from themselves, year after year after year.

No muzzleloader ever made has been proven as strong or as safe. That's one of the reasons I shoot one, my 77 year old father shoots one, Savage CEO Ron Coburn shoots one, companies such as Barnes Bullets, MMP sabots, Accurate Arms powder company, etc. etc., shoot and test powder, bullets, propellants with factory Savage 10ML rifles.

No other muzzleloader ever made can make that claim.

What happen to Toby's Savage?

Joe

Damn, everytime I think there's an ounce of humility left, someone goes and smears their ego all over the place. I don't suppose I could ever expect any objective evaluation when someone's personal OPINION is so slanted. It's simply amazing that Bill Jordan, Jackie Bushman, Jim Shockey, Larry Weishuhn, Jim Wilson, and Ian McMurchy wouldn't use any other gun than the T/C Encore. I honestly wouldn't expect the CEO of Savage to shoot a T/C but I'd sure advise him to if he wants to shoot a real muzzleloading primitive firearm. And Jim Shockey went from Knight to T/C and still went after Cape buffalo and brown bears. Certainly would seem that if the Encore was not the best there was, he'd have been a bit more responsible in taking something else when his life depended on it.

quote:

Originally posted by starmetal:
What happen to Toby's Savage?

Joe

You mean "Savage's Savage"? This is all quite ancient history by now. Over 3 years ago, Toby Bridges destroyed a Savage owned by Savage Arms. Toby was a consultant for Savage, and paid by the original patent holder of the gun-- Henry Ball. He didn't bother to mention it. For various reasons, long after that Savage owned by Savage was destroyed, Toby Bridges was fired by Savage CEO Ron Coburn and fired by Henry Ball. Savage Arms and Henry Ball both quite publicly commented on the matter long ago.

After his dismissal from his consulting position, long after the damage inflicted to Savage property, then and only then did Toby suddenly start attacking Savage Arms and Henry Ball. Now, are you really surprised at this very, very late date?

Anything can be destroyed if you really work hard enough at it.

As I said:

There is a great deal that is quite special about the Savage, as you might think with nine years of development, testing, and refining commenced some 16 years ago by Henry Ball. Designed from scratch to shoot smokeless, not only is it the strongest muzzleloader made proved by testing, it is the strongest rifle made. They key features of the 10ML-II are well-protected by patent. Savage defends their intellectual property rights.

The Savage's ramrod weighs 1360 grains via RCBS electrontic scale. Several shooters have shot out their 1360 grain ramrods along with 300 grain saboted projectiles: along with the sabot, you are pushing about a 1700 grain payload out of your barrel. Despite this ridiculous level of complete shooter negligence-- no injuries.

The original design paramenters of the Savage that include a 250% safety factor have saved shooters from themselves, year after year after year.

No muzzleloader ever made has been proven as strong or as safe. That's one of the reasons I shoot one, my 77 year old father shoots one, Savage CEO Ron Coburn shoots one, companies such as Barnes Bullets, MMP sabots, Accurate Arms powder company, etc. etc., shoot and test powder, bullets, propellants with factory Savage 10ML rifles.

No other muzzleloader ever made can make that claim.

Anyone is entitled to their opinion, of course. What we are not entitled to is our own version of the facts.

For someone to not understand how a Savage 10ML-II works: 209 primer, powder, sabot, projectile . . . would mean that they also do not understand how shotguns work. It is a clear matter of suitable and generous design parameters, extensive torture testing long before the first 10ML ever left the plant, quality materials, and 100% proof testing beyond that-- all backed up by over 16 years of experience by now, and an unparalleled record spanning seven years in the field.

The number of inlines that have been introduced and faded from the scene in the last seven years for various reasons is quite a list.

Not the Savage 10ML-II-- quality and performance never seems to go out of style.

I wonder how much T/C pays all of these guys for endorsements? I know their advertising budget isn't small, given all of the advertising they do on various TV shows. On a different note, but still in the same song...I see Primos is now endorsing Bear archery. They use to endorse PSE and there was a special Primos edition bow in the PSE line. These guys all remind me of gunwriters, they sing the praises for whatever company gives them the most...it's just business as usual.

Edit..IF I had to use a blackpowder rifle for all of my hunting the Encore would be it.

OK Randy, lets say the Savage is all you say it is. Why in the past 5 years have I not seen one in the field or at the range? And I hunt and go to the range a lot. If the Savage is truly the cream of the crop among muzzleloader's, why is it the least seen muzzleloader out there. I think you are there biggest fan, If I were Savage I would be worried that you indorse and praise there product so much, given your popularity among the gun world or lack there of. Just my observation.

John, look at it this way: Thompson/Center pays their sponsored hunters with guns and equipment, air fares, lodging, outfitter fees and taxidermy I suppose. But then Savage doesn't pay anything for Randy to come on this forum, put up a billboard for them, and drop all those names and get you to dance at his fan club meeting all for FREE. What a concept.

Don't know where you are looking, or why . . . but you can find 187 pages of discussion from enthusiastic Savage 10ML-II hunters and shooters right here:

http://dougva.proboards34.com/index.cgi?board=Savage

They will be happy to help you.

Yeah it sure is, guess when you have a great product you don't need to spend huge sums of money trying to convince people that it is. I don't dance at anyone's fan club and I don't appreciate your cheap shot comments either.

John, that wasn't intended as a cheap shot. That was intended as a wake up call for you to look at how you've sided continuously on this thread with only one person and not once have you stood up to objective discussion. Some wise man once said that the sting of a rebuke lies in the truth it expressed. Wakeman's a walking advertisement for Savage ML dropping names like rabbit pellets. When proven time and again to have erred in his comments, you come riding in to the rescue. If I need to see "187 pages" of ads for Savage, I can go to their site the same as I can Thompson Center. If it waddles and quacks, it's a duck. Calling it a peacock won't stop it from always being a duck.

George,
Believe what you want, you will anyway. If you think Wakeman is a walking advertisement for Savage... fine by me and I just might agree with you on that. No harm there, we all know it and this and other forums are loaded with folks who champion their favorite products. That said, when a statement is made that I believe to be correct about something, I will say so just as I will speak up when I believe someone to be wrong. Who makes the statements has nothing to do with how I respond. I went back and reread all of my posts on this thread, and other than commenting on the suitability of RW's first picture of a blown up rifle, the main thing I did was point out errors in your remarks about smokeless powder and how/where it burns in a rifle barrel. I mentioned that T/C obviously wants a huge presence in the ML arena and is spending the bucks to get there, in response to your post naming all of the "celebrities" that are endorsing their products. I believe this to be an attempt by you to somehow convey the notion of the Encore being a superior weapon. In my experience it hasn't been, if the two I have owned were any indication. Certainly a nice and well built rifle, but I can't see anything superior about them.

Here is a picture and statements from a Sam Fadala book: BLACK POWDER LOADING MANUAL



edge.

All Smokeless powder is not the same. Black powder comes in 4 grades of burning speed from F to FFFF.

Go to the Hodgdon website and you will see 105 powders listed from slowest to fastest:

http://www.hodgdon.com/data/general/burnratechart.php

While a 458 Win Mag is designed for reasonable loads of mid burning speed powder, and a working pressure of 65,000 psi, if you load it with Alliant Red Dot and a standard 500 grain bullet you should expect it to blow up!

Smokeless powder does not burn ONLY in the breech, unless you picked the wrong powder. Smokeless powders come in different shapes and with different amounts of flame retardants to prevent this!

True the greatest pressure is in the breech, but that is because the bullet starts to move and the combustion area grows quickly.

edge.

Most old time muzzleloaders are not made from 4130/4140 steel. That is one reason that they can't take the pressure of smokeless. Another reason is the shape of the barrel leaves the breech area too thin. Even if these other conditions are met, most BP guns are not suitable because the ignition is not sealed!

Try shooting a Savage muzzleloader without the special vent restriction, known as a vent liner, and you will get a face full of hot gasses blown back through the action. ( most will exit safely to the sides of the bolthead )

If you tried this with a Hawken, the hammer would blow back and these gasses would certainly cause you injury...assuming that the barrel did not blow up.

edge.

TC is owned by Smith & Wesson now, so we'll see what becomes of the muzzleloader line. To me it appears that TC wants a chunk of the centerfire rifle line, as they just revealed a new rifle.

I don't know about the Encore being superior, but I do think it's a pretty decent rifle and reasonably well made. That's not to say it's stronger then the Savage, which it is not.

Think about smokeless powder and how it's used in a cartridge and in a rifle. The cartridge, like a poster noted before, is merely a gas seal. It also is a container for the powder, primer, and bullet..in one compact neat little package. Lets look at how does that brass cartridge add to strength of the rifle. We know pretty much at how much pressure it will yeah at. What Savage did, in their smokeless powder muzzleloader, was eliminate the need for a gas seal, the brass. They apparently made this rifle pretty stout and tested it to some pretty impressive pressures. I think, as with centerfire cartridge rifles, that there should be maximum loads listed with all current over the counter smokeless powders. Sure, some of them shouldn't really be concidered, like fast burning pistol powders such as Bullseye.

So what say you, how much strength, if any, does a brass case add to a rifle's strength? I say not much.

Joe

Joe, good post. I, too, have wondered about the logic of S&W- T/C merger. T/C had already been in the rifle market and their pistol line has not been active at all. Conversely, Smith was in the rifle/shotgun business some 20 years ago and let it peter out. In fact, their pistol line lanquished until just a few years back with the .500 and the .460 which reawakened hunting pistols. So is it Smith wanting back into the rifles or T/C bolstering up their pistols. I rather think the former rather than the latter.

I'm no metallurgist either, but I've used brass extensively in bolsters, escutchens and decorative hardware in making custom muzzleloaders. It's very brittle at best, and though it has lubrication qualities, I find it difficult to believe it would add strength to a breech in lieu of adding additional steel wall thickness. I was guilty of firing one round in a larger bore rifle once and found that the brass easily fireformed the case to fit the bigger bore. When casting brass, I found it to go from solid to liquid very suddenly when the melting temp was reached. I would be interested in learning the logic of using it instead of copper like the Chinese do or even aluminum like some American manufacturers use.

quote:

So what say you, how much strength, if any, does a brass case add to a rifle's strength? I say not much.

Joe, you are 100% right. The brass is first a seal. The case expands to make up any space in the chamber and looseness in the action. Most cases have a head thickness of about 0.200 or more where the support is weakest, but near the case mouth it is usually abou 0.013 thick and designed to expand.

The bolt on a modern bolt action rifle is designed to take the entire load should you experience a case head separation. In a 458 Win Mag that may approach 15,000 pounds of pressure.

The case also acts using friction. When the case expands it grips the chamber walls tightly. Without this the action would take the full force on every shot, but when the case works properly the action only sees a fraction of the full force. This is one reason to always make sure that cases are cleaned of lube before firing!

edge.

Well the post wasn't to get off track onto smokeless cartridge rifles, the post was to say I think there should be very careful made up maximum loads of a wide range of smokeless powders one would use in a Savage muzzle loader.

Joe

Joe, I agree. There should be more extensive work done on the Savage and max loads posted for each powder. Like I said, there might be some muzzle loaders that can take the pressure but the best thing to do is never to use ANY smokeless in a gun not designed for it's exclusive use.
My question is---What is wrong with using BP anyway?

Well, for one, I think that a lot of muzzle loader shooters think it's a pain in the ass to clean a rifle you fired BP in. This might stem from most of us are engrained to never get our guns wet, try to protect them from water. How we hate it when our pet high dollar rifle gets wet when we're out hunting and get caught in a downpour, or you trip crossing a creek and the rifle gets a bath. Well it happens to water and soap are real good to clean up a BP rifle. I reckon it's hard scrubbing our guns with soap and water. Alot of guys even shy away from good military surplus rifle ammo because it's corrosive and they the best thing for clean that out again is hot water and some soap. I guess it just boils down to that a lot of us think it's a pain in the ass to clean a BP rifle.

I wonder of any states toyed with the idea of banning smokeless muzzleloaders?

Joe

Starmetal, what if I told you that you could clean it without doing anything to it except running two patches down the barrel?

Next time you shoot it, put a round toothpick in the breech plug hole or touch hole to seal it. Then pour Windex down the barrel until it's filled. Set it in the corner for half an hour.

Pull the toothpick and allow some Windex to wash out the touchhole. Then pour out the rest. Now run a dry patch down the barrel. You may need two, possible three, but most of the carbon will have poured out with the Windex. Then take an oiled patch and run it down the barrel, wipe off your nipple with the oiled patch and you're done.

Mondern inlines really allow you to clean them easily by pulling that plug and lubricating it after cleaning, but the older "traditional" smokepoles are really a breeze to clean this way.

I have stated this before, but I use Windex or alcohol and water to clean 777 residue, and any one of the citrus-based cleaners work well to clean up after shooting black...

After working on a friends inline and cleaning it for him, I find it is far easier and faster to clean my caplocks and flinters. I will stay with them and black powder.

Oh My Gosh, if you shoot smokeles you don't need to ever clean...try that with BP :-)

edge.

quote:

Originally posted by edge:
Oh My Gosh, if you shoot smokeles you don't need to ever clean...try that with BP :-)

edge.

All guns need to be cleaned.

quote:

All guns need to be cleaned.

True BUT, I will say I haven't cleaned my Savage in the past couple of seasons That included trips to the range and some deer in the field. I guess I'll break down and clean it before I do load development in the next few weeks. I'm sure I'm in need to replace the vent liner anyhow.

Reloader

All of us real muzzle loader shooters knew what we were getting into when we first started. They need to be cleaned! None of us are or ever did look for an easy way out of it. It is part of the primitive aspect. If I didn't want to clean after each outing, I would have never started shooting holy black and stayed with modern rifles. Are the new crop of shooters getting that lazy?
Pretty soon someone will come up with a cartridge to load in the muzzle loader and call it NEW, to sneak farther into the back door of primitive seasons.
Anyone that can't kill deer with a flinter is not a hunter! I could kill more deer in a year with a match lock then all of you inline shooters put together! I don't own one and never will. I shoot a lot of them because I am a gunsmith and people and friends bring them out for work and just to shoot. I am nothing but unimpressed with them. I have nothing against them but have no use for them because I am a hunter first, a shooter second. I have killed more deer with a bow then some of you have ever seen, same with flinters and percussions and is the reason I only use revolvers in gun season. The modern rifle is just too easy and I gave them up and sold them.
Anyone that NEEDS an inline to shoot 200 yd's is NOT a hunter and don't start giving me the crap that those are the only shots you can get!
Seems as if as the deer herd is increasing in leaps and bounds, people are losing the ability to actually hunt. Most want to sit in a big wooden blind with windows, a heater, coffee and sandwiches and shoot across fields planted in deer food. Soon it will be called shooting season instead of hunting season! Use any darn gun you want to. The state will build funnels of fence to your patio and drive deer to your house so you can sit at the table and shoot them. You will also need a .300 Weatherby for those 50 yd shots too.
Are any of you able to get close to a deer?

bfrshooter,
Get off your soapbox. Your bragging and BS mean nothing to anyone here besides yourself. Many of us ML shooters got into it for one reason... That is for extra hunting time and/or prime time seasons for deer and elk. Same can be said for archery. You get more time in the woods, period. I guess by your logic, anyone using a compound bow rather than a long bow is somehow not worthy of calling himself an archer? Around here, the vast majority of BP hunters are also archery hunters. The modern gun hunters rarely mess with MLs.

bfrshooter, what a bunch of crap you are spreading. You don't impress me or for that matter anyone else. I could give a rats ass how you feel about the way I hunt or anyone else here chooses to hunt. You make yourself look like an ass by saying you are such a great hunter. Just because you choose to use a flint lock or a match lock.
Go preach your crap some place else.
John S, he is not on a soap box, but in my opinion his head is up his ass.

John,

Way to go...you took the words right out of my mouth. To claim one only hunts one faction of hunting and with only a certain type of firearm is the same as saying "I drive a Ford and you all are fools if you drive anything else, because that's not what driving is about if you drive a "any other manufacturers" vehicle".

I believe a few states have split up blackpowder seasons, such as Pennsylvania. They orginally had only a Primitive black powder season. The requirements for it were flintlock only and only a patched round ball...iron sights. Well they modified that some to you can use a conical. But...they have an addition black powder season now where all BP types of firearms are allowed. I would imagine governed by caliber and such. Be a while since I've lived there so maybe someone on the forum that does can clarify that.

To say one's not a hunter if he can't stalk close to his prey, rather then take a 200 yard shot is like saying our sniper soldiers aren't good soldiers because they can't stalk closer to the enemy to insure a "one-shot" kill. Baloney. In many types of hunting you really can't get close to the prey.

Joe

I'm all for the advancement of technology, but IMHO smokeless powder in a muzzleloader is a stupid idea. Why not just use a modern firearm.

Muzzleloading doesn't give me any more time in the field every year. In Washington state you pick your weapon, Muzzleloader, modern Firearm, or Bow and that's the season you hunt in.

I started hunting with a muzzleloader years ago because it was a more primitive more challenging method, there were less people in the woods (at that time), and it allowed me to hunt and not have to wear orange, and I was able to hunt like I like to, as though I was carrying a bow, and get as close to the animals as I can.

Nowadays, the proliferation of inlines has "created more opportunities" and giving many the impression they can shoot past 200yds and is blurring the lines between primitive and modern firearm. There are more people hunting in the muzzleloader seasons, bringing with them their ATVs and to me, it's ruined that season here too. In Washington muzzleloading season scopes, 209 primers, and any projectile other than solid lead are not legal and if I'm not mistaken, the percussion cap must be exposed to the elements. If someone wants to use smokeless powder so they can shoot 250 yds, they're welcome to... in the modern rifle season.

I admittedly mingled my frustration with the lack of enforcement of the laws and the use of ATVs and certain other devices in with my comments about smokeless powder in a muzzle loader and I shouldn't have... I'll take that up with the WDFW.

Bfrshooter:

I have killed many deer at 10ft or less I do not use a scope on my Inline. I also have a Lyman Great Plains 54cal that will shoot great with a round ball at 100yards. I have seen many shooters at the gun range stuffing 150 grains of 777 while trying to adjust there scopes on there in-lines and telling me they can shoot a deer on the run through the heart a 250 yards with the same gun. It seems funny that many can’t even get on the paper and those that can shoot groups that look like they were shot with a shot gun using buck shot. When they tell me there lies I show them my Ruger SP101 357mag with a 2.25" barrel and tell them it is my sniper pistol and I can hit deer on the run at 500 yards through the heart. The first liar never stands a chance. Yes there are many shooters out there that would like to call themselves hunters. I also have hunted many rifle seasons with a handgun. Many of the shooters look at me like I am some kind of a weirdo, but when I harvest a deer and they go home empty handed I wonder what they think.
I am not going to tell anyone that they cant hunt with a scope or an inline I just with them good luck and hope they don't wound to many deer trying to push the envelope on distance.

brianbo-
Smokeless powder in a ML rifle designed for it is NOT a stupid idea. It is a very good idea, IMO. I can shoot a lot more for the same money as using BP or some form of Pyrodex. I don't have to clean the gun every time I shoot it, which I happen to really like. And, in the end it is a more deadly and effective rifle because it not only shoots the same bullets faster if I desire, but most importantly it is lots more accurate than any inline I've ever owned. Apparently in your state, the weapon of choice is up to you. Where I live we are not so fortunate because we aren't allowed the use of a centerfire rifle, and we must wear orange during ANY gun seasons. We get to choose between the shotgun w/slugs or the ML for gun season. Given that choice, I picked the ML. I chose it because of greater accuracy and cheaper shooting...makes practice a whole lot more interesting when you aren't blowing 3 dollars a shot down the barrel! I shoot a lot...typically 2 to 4 times per week most all year long, so economy means a great deal to me. Now, if I lived in a state like yours, I'd maybe not bother with a smokeless ML because then I'd just use my 30/06 if I didn't want to use my BP rifle. Here, that option doesn't exist.

Hey bfrshooter, I must admit I've not seen that level of outright blowhard bragging since allan day tucked his tail between his legs and went whinning off the board. And it appears you have gone to the georgeroof school of How to Make Friends and Influence People. Now if you dream up some totally nonsensical new earth-shattering theories like denton used to do, you will have completed a unique Trifecta.

How many Skinners and Trucks does it take to clean ALL the Deer you kill and haul the guts off?

Hotcore, how does it feel to be a legend in your own mind. John stated HIS opinion and I've stated mine. (1) Savage is a POS firearm and (2) integrating smokeless powder into muzzleloading will eventually lead to the ATF including ALL ML firearms under their scrutiny. That's MY OPINION and if it doesn't make you a friend of mine, I assure you I won't lose any sleep tonight.

JohnS,

Ok, I apologise for my use of the word stupid. It is really simply a matter of choice and it's not a choice that I would make for a muzzleloader. That said, I respect, understand, and agree with your reasons for doing so.

I use my muzzleloader for hunting elk. I've never had any problem with cleaning my muzzleloader and all I shoot is BP. As far as velocity... I can't wait for my new ML to be completed. It's shoots a 417 grn roundball on top of 150 grns of FFg... somewhere in the neighborhood of 1700 fps.

quote:

Originally posted by george roof:
Hotcore, how does it feel to be a legend in your own mind. John stated HIS opinion and I've stated mine. (1) Savage is a POS firearm and (2) integrating smokeless powder into muzzleloading will eventually lead to the ATF including ALL ML firearms under their scrutiny. That's MY OPINION and if it doesn't make you a friend of mine, I assure you I won't lose any sleep tonight.

George,
Why do you call a Savage a POS? Have you ever owned one or shot one? Or is it just because you're afraid the BATF will start looking at all MLs just because of the Savage? Where I live we already have to fill out a 4473 form for ANY gun purchase, what's the big deal? Just like you called a M70's 3 position safety a POS in another thread...or was it that Mauser style extractor your 1973 model supposedly had?