Why do those of you that use modern MLs to hunt choose them over a traditional ML rifle?
Seriously, I do not understand what the attraction is. But, I own flintlocks, modern technology hasn't figured out how to destroy the lines and connection to the past like they have with cap guns.

In the spring of 1981 I was part of a group of twelve that organized the Idaho Muzzleloading Assn and petitioned Fish & Game to establish the first ML seasons in Idaho. We got them to make it "Traditional ML guns only, exposed hammer, black powder only." It was to be primitive or traditional guns only, and they are constantly under pressure to allow the modern stuff in.

Personally, I think the new stuff makes it ten times easier to harvest game. Is that the appeal, instead of that sense of connecting with the past and the "essence" of ML as they did 200 years ago? To make it easier?

Rich

Rich - much the same happened here with a late "Primitive Moose Hunt"

Strike 1 - some guys insisted upon using slugs and after season otopsies on 'found' moose contained form 1 to 4 'slugs'. The game branch never found a lost moose with round balls inside.

Strike 2 - same slug shooting guys wanted more range, so they mounted scopes. Game branch didn't see that as being within the flavour of the 'primitive aspect of the Hunt.

Srtike 3 - Knight bolt actioned ML's showed, complete with scopes.

Primitive Weapons Hunt cancelled.

We now have a Primitive Weapons hunt for deer, side hammer, round ball, black powder. It's a great hunt and we'll report any illegals we see there.

As far as making it easier to harvest game, I'm not sure it does. Most of the inline shooters I've heard of around here, have a lot of trouble with getting acceptable accuracy, but usually spout advertized accuracy when questioned. Most say they shoot into 1/2" to 1 1/2" at 100 yards, yet can barely hit a pie plate at 50.

My Sharps can be loaded from the muzzle and I used to do just that with my rolling block .45/70 with .451" 480gr. slugs. At least these had large outside hammers, but I still didn't consider them to be muzzleloaders.

I don't consider a bolt action rifle that loads from the muzzle as being a muzzleloader either.

i hunt with 4 in-line guys during ML season and i am the only one who shoots traditional style rifles. personally the only advantages i see with inlines are 1) ease of scope mounting 2) with the closed breech models, weatherproof. the guys i hunt with all started ML hunting when the seperate ML season was established 23 years ago, as none of them hunted with modern rifles, they only bowhunted. they all started with traditional rifles but switched to inlines in the late 90's. has their success went up when they started using modern in-lines? no, they killed deer every year with side hammer guns and they kill deer every year with their in-lines.

Idaho, your oppinion is great and I see your point however I don't share your fellings.

I hunt deer in Missouri with all means legal. I shoot the best equipment I can afford to kill deer.

I have no desire to "connect with the past" and use the most modern equipment, from my bow to all my rifles.
As a matter of fact my ML is probably the most illegal you can use in some states as it is a .45 cal, clean barrel (no sites), scoped, saboted,and 209 primed. Not all but some are not allowed in some states but all are fine in Missouri.

Equipment, old or new doesn't make the hunter or the hunt. I think nothing more or less of the hunter who carries a flintlock or an inline.

I have never hunted deer with anything more modern than a Civil War musket. For the past 20 years it has been a 1770's flintlock jaeger. (This statement does not include cull hunting under state supervision.) The primary reason most ML hunters have for using a ML is the additional season(s) provided. I suspect most use modern firearms during "gun season" and only take their ML out to get in those extra days. With that in mind, the additional chance(s) for a deer, not tradition, fuel their thinking. So why a SuperWammyZumo209 Inline instead of a Thompson Center Hawken? Same reason golfers spend 3 gazillion dollars a year buying new clubs because they will automatically make them better golfers.

Tom

quote:

Originally posted by Sgt Brown: So why a SuperWammyZumo209 Inline instead of a Thompson Center Hawken? Same reason golfers spend 3 gazillion dollars a year buying new clubs because they will automatically make them better golfers.

Tom

BS there sarge I said it above and stand behind it 100% the rifle DOES NOT make the hunter.

I don't whant to use a vintage rifle is why I use an inline.

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
Why do those of you that use modern MLs to hunt choose them over a traditional ML rifle?
Seriously, I do not understand what the attraction is. But, I own flintlocks, modern technology hasn't figured out how to destroy the lines and connection to the past like they have with cap guns.

In the spring of 1981 I was part of a group of twelve that organized the Idaho Muzzleloading Assn and petitioned Fish & Game to establish the first ML seasons in Idaho. We got them to make it "Traditional ML guns only, exposed hammer, black powder only." It was to be primitive or traditional guns only, and they are constantly under pressure to allow the modern stuff in.

Personally, I think the new stuff makes it ten times easier to harvest game. Is that the appeal, instead of that sense of connecting with the past and the "essence" of ML as they did 200 years ago? To make it easier?

Rich

congrats on getting it done.

doan know about odd but your questions are interesting.

I have inlines primarily because of ease of cleaning. I like being able to unscrew the breech plug.

My attraction to deer hunting is stronger than my attraction to traditional rifles.

Am I a bad person because of it?

quote:

Originally posted by ted thorn:
BS there sarge I said it above and stand behind it 100% the rifle DOES NOT make the hunter.

I don't whant to use a vintage rifle is why I use an inline.

And I stand 100% behind what you said. The rifle DOES NOT make the hunter.

Tom

We agree on something then.

The only people who buy inlines around here, are trying to get a couple more days of hunting because they cannot kill their single deer tag deer in 3 months of regular season. They typically buy a can of fake powder, a 'card' of bullets, 100 primers and fire a couple shots at a target at 25 yards using Triple 7 or Pyrodex. They find they can't load more than 1 or two shots without wiping the bore, then put the gun away for 1 to 12 months and find it's a piece of rotted junk next time they look at it. Therein lies their entire muzzleloading career.

To you, Daryl S. it's your hobby.
To me, it's a tool to kill more deer in Missouri.

Ted,

do you get to kill extra deer with an inline? Like more than otherwise the legal limit? My brother owns a farm in SE Missouri. He only lets "primitive" weapon users hunt for turkeys and deer and such on his place. He tells me it is one a year.

I guess where we differ is that for me, just figuring out a more efficient/easier way to kill something adds nothing to the hunt process. I have Deer and Elk on the ranch here, and I could kill one about any time with my 22 Hornet with a ten minute ride. The idea that I match wits with a wild game animal much the same as Boone and Crockett did maybe 200 years ago is part of it. Scouting for big bulls and bucks ahead of the season, then coming back and tracking them close enough to make a killing shot is where it's at for me. If Fish & Game establishes a special season for primitive weapons they sort-of had that link with the hunters of the past in mind I figure.

ncboman,

ever looked at a Hawken? Hooked breech comes out and cleans pretty fast.

One person posted who answered all my questions. Thanks Ted.

Rich

We went out and posted the place this week. "No Hunting Without Written Permission".

Rich,
I lease land in Northern Missouri. Unlimited doe for $7 each. Oregon county 49 miles from my house is the has the same regulation.There are several bonus hunts each year for M/L I get drawn each year for one.

Nice to see we agree on the Cardinals though.

Ted

quote:

Personally, I think the new stuff makes it ten times easier to harvest game. Is that the appeal, instead of that sense of connecting with the past and the "essence" of ML as they did 200 years ago? To make it easier?

I can't agree with that because killing them with a traditional MZ isn't hard, but then I don't feel taking one with a bow is "hard" either.

I use an Encore because I like the gun, the fact it's a little easier to clean/maintain is a bonus. I use it both shotgun an MZ season.

Well, it is a little different for me where I live in Arizona. First you have to get drawn to hunt and I have not been drawn for the last three years. When you luck out you get to hunt State land with all the others that got drawn and put up with the Road hunters and guys on ATVs running all through the forest. If you manage with all this to finally find any Elk I prefer to have the most reliable muzzleloader available in order to harvest an animal well. Consequently I use an inline and a scope since my 71 year old eyes can't see open sights anyway. I still limit my shots to 100yards or less so I do some stalking too. I'm pretty sure Daniel Boone didn't have to deal with this. I sure envy you guys that get to hunt every year and have game that available.

I started shooting muzzleloaders in the early seventies. I shoot them all, flinters, caplocks, and now in lines. Did the Rendezvous thing back when the body was more tolerant of abuse. Open sights got harder to see and in some areas, states opened in line seasons. I started using inlines because they gave me another season to hunt, could be esily scoped, and were a lot nicer to use in rainy weather. I've had quite a few paste filled pans over the years. I also am just a bit lazy, and cleanup is so much easier with the new powders.
Besides, it's fun to try something new and work out the kinks.
Bfly

As far as the argument, "the cocection with the past" I am 100% sure if the hunters/trappers from the past had a choice they would and DID use the most modern choice available. History proves this as firearms evolved.

If you want to use an old rifle or even dress in the period for the weekend do it I back you. But what I can't understand is the (use what I use) crowd. Use what is legal in your state and don't be one bit ashamed to do it.

As a modern rifle hunter I have a slightly different take on this.

Many of us who are used to hunting regular season with 30-06s are now finding ourselves in a very awkward situation. The guys who go in the early season with the scoped, sabot in-lines are literally wiping out close to ALL larger worthwhile bucks before we even get a chance.

So, we are stuck with having to join them by purchasing and learning to shoot in-lines ourselves even when we really don't care for them (I'd prefer the earlier real B/P, side hammer, no scope, brass furniture guns myself, if I was going to get interested in muzzleloading).

In any event, that's simply what's going on as a practical matter.

I suppose what I really wish they would do is change the rules to level the playing field. There are several possibilities. One, abolish the early season. Two, advance the date two weeks and open it to everyone. Three, go back to more primitive muzzleloaders (one state official has told me forget that...in their minds "that train has long since left the station").

Or four, in the early season allow other weapon types with or without scopes as well, handguns, shotguns and early breechloaders. That option is probably what I'd like best, being also a handgunner.

Missouri has thier M/L season last in late December.

TX ml seasons are the last two weeks of the season, long after the rut is over and the does are bred. It makes things a bit harder, but fwiw, I will shoot inlines and conicals from now on. If you think the inline is a "new" design, do some research!

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
Why do those of you that use modern MLs to hunt choose them over a traditional ML rifle?
Seriously, I do not understand what the attraction is. But, I own flintlocks, modern technology hasn't figured out how to destroy the lines and connection to the past like they have with cap guns.

In the spring of 1981 I was part of a group of twelve that organized the Idaho Muzzleloading Assn and petitioned Fish & Game to establish the first ML seasons in Idaho. We got them to make it "Traditional ML guns only, exposed hammer, black powder only." It was to be primitive or traditional guns only, and they are constantly under pressure to allow the modern stuff in.

Personally, I think the new stuff makes it ten times easier to harvest game. Is that the appeal, instead of that sense of connecting with the past and the "essence" of ML as they did 200 years ago? To make it easier?

Rich

Rich,
you are assuming that the reason one is choosing the ML season is to connect with the past. Here in Ohio, no rifles are legal only shotguns and slugs. Therefore, if you want to use a weapon capable of 150 yards or more range, the muzzleloader in modern form is the only real option. I have both a Remington 700 muzzleloader and a TC renegade. Because the remington always goes 'boom' when the trigger is pulled, it is always the first choice in a muzzleloader. Secondly, it takes a scope very nicely and that helps my accuracy in shooting. I do agree it makes it 'easier' to harvest game which is exactly why I am using it.

what is the "need" to shoot so far? My second Elk was about eleven yards, I don't think I have ever taken a shot out as far as 100 yards. It was always easier to learn how to stalk the game.
If "easier" is the answer and the hunt is all about killing something... It would be easier and cheaper to just call me in September and have my nephew run you a nice range fed steer into the corral.

Never mind, we are just going to have to disagree about the whole hunting VS killing something thing.

Rich

quote:

what is the "need" to shoot so far? My second Elk was about eleven yards, I don't think I have ever taken a shot out as far as 100 yards. It was always easier to learn how to stalk the game.

So you like doing things the easy way also I see. I mean where is the challenge in shooting an elk 11 yards away? You couldn't miss if you tried.

This is somewhat of a silly thread. I mean I like Ford's but a buddy likes Chevy, my favorite color is blue his is green, I like deer hunting he likes ducks, and I enjoy popping a cap on a deer 200 yds away and he likes sitting in a tree while they walk right up to him. Different strokes for different folks...

When you find him in glasses about 1/4 of a mile away and can stalk close enough to harvest him with a Leatherman Jumbo Tool, that is the challenge of the hunt. Close enough to smell him and see his chest moving as he breathes, and watch his nose wrinkle as he maybe senses something is not quite right, but can't figure out just what yet, and he doesn't know I am there. That is the adrenaline rush and the sense of outwitting the game. I guess it's the difference between hunting and sniping at an animal. We tend to value things inversely proportional to the amount of effort expended to acquire them.

I have no problem with modern muzzleloaders, except the idea of calling it a "primitive" weapon.

IMHO, it is similar to comparing a radial engine airplane to a new jet. Progress in a technical sense, but something is lost. Same with coal-fired locomotives VS the new ones.
Just me, I guess.

Rich

Ted - you are absolutely right - we should stick together and back each other as we are all shooters.

I guess I am still miffed about losing our primitive hunt due to the inlines - afterall, that was 15 years ago & I no longer hunt in -40 weather, anyway.

I was wrong to critisize & I apologise for my attitude. It was immature.

Daryl S.

I attend a black powder rendezvous here localy each spring and enjoy it a great deal. I support all shooting sports from longbows to the new 80% let-off bows of today, as well as flints to T/C Encores. I think your rifles are great, but not for me.

I hunt with my bow, then centerfire, then M/L season opens in late December but given a choice of the three......
I prefer my 30-06 during the regular rifle season with a pocket full of tags to fill.

ted,

do they say anything about your inline there?

Here they are really crabby about the post-1840 thingie.

regards,

Rich

Never heard of that....elaborate.

If your talking about the B/P rendezvous...I just watch people shoot and check out the camps and clothing ect. It is local so there is not much of a drive.

Somegunnut,
Your comment about the ten yard shot at an elk reminded me of my first flintlock shot on a whitetail buck. He was about fifteen yards, and walking toward me. I had three click...fuff's and he kept coming. Last one was about ten yards, walking away. At one point he was probably only about six feet away, and I couldn't get the darn thing to go off! Don't know why he never spooked. One of my favorite blackpowder memories. Never did get the shot off. After he was gone, I aimed at a stump, it went off. Thanks for reminding me.
Bfly

Here in eastern NC this coming fall, we will be able to begin using BP guns around the first week of Oct and allowed to hunt with them 6 days a week until Jan 1.

I like that.

Ted,

not cross or anything, but the rondyvoos I have attended are pretty strict about nothing post the Mountain Man Era. They have set the cut off for equipment and dress at 1840. Nothing newer.
I think where we differ is the basic approach to muzzle loading. Some embrace the culture, like I do. To others, the ML is just a means to be out during a special season for them and harvest more game. For you, it seems, it's just a tool that allows you more time in the field and a chance to kill more game.

Rich

As to shooting far meaning an inline is necesary, one need only shoot a large bored RB rifle. During a 200 yard match last summer, I managed a 10 shot group, 5 standing unsupported, 5 sitting cross sticks that would have put every shot into the kill zone of a moose & with a 484gr. ball that will get the job done at that range. My bench target for sight testing was 6 shots into 1 1/2" wide x 3 1/2" high - open express rear sight - with a bead front.

No - an inline is not necessary for stretching the muzzleloading range.

3 years ago, I witnessed a 170 yard shot on a bull moose. The guy was using a TC .54, .535" ball and .018" patch. The load was 100gr. of RS Pyrodex, the use of which he found rotted his bore - another topic. Anyway - he double lunged the moose, holed the heart and the moose took off running like a thorobred out of the starting gate - dropped dead after a 40 yard dash. I've watched moose run 300 yards after being holed in the same place by a .300 WTBY.

I've personally never had to shoot a moose beyond 95 yards. I have shot a moose at 200, but could have waited or passed it up. All dead on the spot or within 60 yards.

The point is, you don't need an inline bolt actioned rifle to shoot 150 yards at big game. The lowly round ball will do the job - you merely need to practise and do yours.

Spot on there Idaho.

Yes, just a tool....all of my weapons are.

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
what is the "need" to shoot so far? My second Elk was about eleven yards, I don't think I have ever taken a shot out as far as 100 yards. It was always easier to learn how to stalk the game.
If "easier" is the answer and the hunt is all about killing something... It would be easier and cheaper to just call me in September and have my nephew run you a nice range fed steer into the corral.

Never mind, we are just going to have to disagree about the whole hunting VS killing something thing.

Rich

Rich,
generally deer are easily taken at short distances if you watch a trail leading in/out of a corn field. Typical ambush hunting and shots generally measured in feet. Great for bowhunters and slugs. Really, not much challenge at all if you have been doing it for several years.
If you want something different, then you have the chance to hunt some of the larger corn fields which may be up to 50 acres in size. When you start hunting these, with no cover from the edge, no rolling feature and land flat as a tabletop and the deer bedding in the standing corn it gets a bit trickier. Something that will allow you to reach 150 to 200 yards is great. So, it is easier in the sense that you actually can make a good shot. By the way, muzzleloader season is in january with below 0 and snow, which also makes it a bit more challenging. Part of it too is the food aspect. A nice big corn fed deer will yield 120 to 130 pounds of meat. My deer tags are $24.00 each. If I cut and wrap and don't count my time the meat costs .018 a pound, can't buy beef for that. So if you think stalking is true hunting, you may want to limit yourself--- unfortunately here, the government has determined for us that we must stalk and not be riflemen. For precision shooting, we must travel out of state or use a modern muzzleloader.

Just my opinion-This is a debate we should not be getting into. Through the years I've heard it all before: Rifle hunters didn't want handgunners chasing deer; archery guys didn't want crossbow guys chasing anything; at one time rifle hunters didn't archers in the woods at all. I am mostly a traditional kind of guy but if someone else wants to hunt with an in-line that doesn't prevent me from going "traditional". I am a history nut and I like the connection but clearly others don't. So what? Here in Washington we have an early wilderness deer hunt that is open to all weapon types. While carrying my traditional ML I have encountered modern rifle guys and archery guys. I can't recall a time when we have hindered each other's hunt or appreciation of the high county. Get over it. Stick together.

rite on al. i read this whole thing and set in wonder at this great debate. its great isnt it...we all enjoy our sport to the point that we want all to believe in our way of looking at stuff. kinda reminds me of religon huh??? i set here and can honestly say that i am open to just about everything that spits a projectile in any manner. im in love with all types as is attested to by what lives in my home....22's thru 458's hawkins thru ar-15's and 10's. bow-n-arrow thru slide action shotgun with a very short barrel. ....... i say yee haa fellas!!! contreversy is great as long as we all aggree that the sport is king and if we all get what we want....then we will STICK TOGETHER .......AS I WOULD GLADLY DEFEND ANYONE HIS RITE TO " DO IT HIS OR HER WAY" as i have in the past with thousands of other men and women. GOD BLESS US ALL!!!!!

Ted is right on, and I hope we all agree on his statement, aka, we can hang together or we can surely hang separately.

I've been around long enough to remember when the Thompson Center Hawken was totally reviled as sacrilidge by the true blue of the muzzleloading subculture. How dare TC use the name of Jake and Sam Hawken to market a "blued barrel" fast twist (48") brass mounted rifle gun. Hell, the lock had coil springs inside. Them wuz fightin werd I tell ya Pilgrim.

Tony Knight almost single handedly changed the entire complexion of muzzleoading when he marketed his first inlines. Toward the end of his reign, Knight was selling the damn things in vacuum packed clear plastic like most everything else. The NMLRA was at first agast at this abomination, but their membership was declining badly and aging badly too. Advertising dollars were dribbling off, so poof here comes the inlines and the NMLRA, while not exactly prospering, at least held the line in membership. Not everyone was happy with their endorsement, and probably still aren't, but once again the dust of controversy settled.

Personally, I don't want one, nor do I need one. I have enough traditional guns that if I sold them all, I could probably make a 21 day safari to Africa with a BIG ASS BOLT GUN But I've long since quit deriding the new technology.

I have only met Jim Schokey and talked with him a couple of times. Strikes me as nice guy, and Louise is a sweetheart. I have to say Good For You Jim. He's killed most everything that leaves tracks and shits in the woods with all kinds of new gear. He also knows about traditional equipment and uses it on ocaission when the sponsors and the cameras aren't around.

I love just about anything that goes bang, even one of them new fangled girly boy guns.

I must have missed something. I did not see a "controversy" in anything said before. I always thought debate was a good thing. Pissing contests I can do without, but there has not been one here. Rich asked a couple of good questions from a traditionalist perspective and Ted answered with his opinion. I have seen enough of Rich's posts to know if he was degrading someone, he would speak more "plainly" that this.

As to the question at hand, Rich, I got into muzzleloading for a couple of reasons, extra time afield and extra challenge. Tradition really had nothing to do with it. Sure, I've thought about it, but never felt the need to act on it. As for the extra time afield, the Kansas ML season happens in September. I can get out early and hunt/scout when it is a bit warmer. Then I have rifle seasons in Missouri and Nebraska. Next comes rifle season in Kansas at the same time ML season opens in Nebraska again for an entire month. I hunt property that spans the state lines between the two. I just need to pick up the proper firearm for whichever side of the fence I am on at the moment.

The challenge is a personal thing. I have never shot an animal with my inline (the only type ML I have) at more than 50 yards. That challenge along with the single shot makes me a better hunter. I don't need traditional for that. And yes, they are easier to clean. This challenge is also why I choose to hunt most of rifle season with a revolver. Same close-in challenge.

I hope that answers the question. Maybe not the same perspective as yours, but it is my answer.

Just curious.

I tend to get in pretty deep on shooting sports that appeal to me. I own two flintlocks, a Fusil Fin and a TVM Early Lancaster.
I start reading about the background, I am an absolute bookworm from Day One. I have dozens of books on Hunting Africa, the French & Indian and Revolutionary Wars. That sort of thing. I have dressed in the 1750-1800 era dress and gone on weekend to a week long ML trek. Fire with flint and steel, one blanket camps. Nothing a Long Hunter of the era would not have carried. Living off the land in a manner of speaking.
I tend to be a bit of a romanticist.
Modern ML hunters tend to be a bit more pragmatic in their approach. It's all good.

Rich

Yeah, but don't get me started on why we can only do it 6 days a week and not 7.

quote:

Originally posted by ncboman:
Here in eastern NC this coming fall, we will be able to begin using BP guns around the first week of Oct and allowed to hunt with them 6 days a week until Jan 1.

I like that.