quote:

Originally posted by PETA:
Why do those of you that use modern MLs to hunt choose them over a traditional ML rifle to kill innocent animals?
Seriously, I do not understand what the attraction is.

PETA

This might be a question more worthy of debate.

I am with Ted. My Omega is a tool to fill the freezer. I have fun using it, same as bow and W70 in the right season, but I always use the maximum the law allows me. I am convinced the deer has the right to be killed as fast as possible and modern weapons are just that - better in a sense of higher chance of clean kill.

BTW, the Omega chose me, I bought some tickets in FONRA raffle 30 guns in 30 days and next thing I know I need to buy a black powder VA license.
I hunt in forest, typically from the ground and 50 yards is a very long shot in our area - does not really matter what you shoot.

Its the same with everything else, some people think that the end result is the only thing that matters. ie, whats the easiest way for me to kill deer? Other people have come to realize that, HOW you get to to the end result is as important as the body count. Unfortunately that is never going to change. People are just going to take the easiest route and how dare someone suggest otherwise.

Bolt action muzzleloader doesnt mean a thing. Its just to hold the primer and of course, set the primer off. Doesnt mean its like a centerfire and as accurate as one.

The traditional guys talk a lot of crap yet you see them posting 3 or 5 shot groups touching and go " Yeah, i shot that off hand with my flintlock at 100 yards!"

Well if you can do that off hand with a flintlock, thats awesome, just goes to show you that you are being a moron when you complain about inlines and scopes yet you're out shooting them by doing it with a flintlock and off hand.

Why whine? Use whats legal in your state and shut up.

Oh yeah and guys shooting traditional gear have much better manners.

I am not so sure. I always experienced traditional guys challenging modern guys; most of these discussions are started by trad guy.

And not just in ML, same thing between jeepers. There are jeep drivers who think that buying ready parts is for sissies and real jeeper uses junk yard stuff and builds it himself. It is hard to drive a line here - should we be casting engine blocks just to be real hands on guy? BTW I am a jeeper with junk yard approach and too cheap to buy products already build, I build my add on goodies myself.

One more thought, do you think that fisherman has a better chance to catch a fish when he uses new rod or old rod? Seems to be clear, than in fishing it is the skill and knowledge what brings home the bacon, aka fish. If you know the river, if you understand weather and bite, you got better chance than a rookie with new rod. Now, if this concept is so clear in fishing, why is it such a huge deal in hunting? Compound bow hunters go against crossbows and stick bow hunters go against compound bows and crossbows and some snobs believe that if you don't use only your knife and rabbit intestins you have no right to hunt? Whiskey, Tango, Foxtrot????

Off my box now

I was referring to the post above mine, where he called trad. guys "morons" and told them to "shut up". The problem is and always has been, where do you draw the line? If someone invented a semi auto muzzleloader, there would be guys lining up to buy it. Three days before the first "bow" season here when crossbows were made legal, guys were LINED UP buying compound, laser sighted crossbows, instant "bow hunters". Traditional seasons were started by guys that wanted to do it the old way, not by guys with stainless steel, plastic stocked, scope sighted, pellet and sabot, shotgun primed enclosed ignition systems. I realize that most people just don't care, the only thing that interests them is, WHAT IS THE EASIEST THING FOR ME?, but everytime you make something easier, you lose something too!

I just can't get over the thought from the topic starter ISS and him playing dress up to go hunt with a ML.

I hope it wasn't realy warm weather and a loin cloth.....yeeeuck

I feel bad for you, that you can get a visual on that.

Buckskins braintanned from Elk killed with a flintlock rifle. Matchcoat and NIH from Wilde Weavery, and half-boots.

Yer okay Ted, I don't care what the rest of the people on the forum say about you...

Rich

Sorry, loboga, I didn't catch that. All I am saying is to live and let live. If somebody is using laser/satelite/whatever contraption to hunt, it is his problem and not mine. I do it my way and that's all there is to it.

While hunting I compete only against myself, get to the place quieter, react better when deer shows up, make a cleaner kill - other hunters concern me only if they enter the area I am hunting.

I guess using the word "Primitive" or "Traditional" seems almost degrading to the history of real muzzleloaders.

In 1981 I was one of the original dozen people who formed the Idaho State Muzzleloading Assn. Spent hundreds of hours lobbying F&G for some special ML hunts over a two year span. There were no "Modern Muzzleloaders" because it was just us hunting because of the limited range and reloading challenges. You had to be a better game stalker and shot then. We didn't know then that we needed to make it wood stocks, external side hammers, BP only, barrel mounted iron sights,and patched roundball to keep it primitive.

So, we bust our ass, and then the money-makers jump in and try and turn it into just a rifle you have to pour powder (pellets?) down the barrel and ram a sabot home.

The manufacturers are even offering ML using smokeless powder. People here use it as an extra season.

So, that's my issue. There is good news on the horizon though. It looks as if we will get "choose your weapon/choose your seasons" pretty soon.

Nothing against this new stuff, it just does not seem fair. It has turned an opportunity to connect with the past a bit, into another arms/equipment race. That seems sad...


Rich

Rich, I understand your point. The positive side of this is that you can not stop enterprising spirit - based on existing laws, companies exploited the situation to make money. I know, it sucks but you would have to come from the east block to really appreciate the free spirit that made it happen. There is nothing more given than a change and that's the driving force of the free world.

OK, I will stop being pathetic

I have a very good friend, who as a six-year old, stood in the streets with his family in Hungary when the russian tanks came.

Rich

Yes, one of my first political memories are tanks in streets of Prague, my city.

Rich, That rifle you are holding in your pic looks pretty cutting edge to me. What ever happened to the old buffalo rifles and peep tang sights?

I say as long as you are legal we all need to stick together!

God Bless, Louis

You mean you don't have a deep hole in your heart that only a DR can fill?

1st trip to Africa for DG is a learning experience.
1st trip to Africa for PG is a learning experience.

At my age, I wanted to experience those hunts, but have a bit of an edge. I am Type II Diabetic, and my Dr had some concerns about medication and a couple weeks away from quality medical treatment.

I have only whetted my appetite to hunt Africa with Double Rifles, but I now know I will be able to make four or five more trips.

Next trip's pictures will feature a Model of 1877 Sharps rifle in 45-90.

If I may, those of you who are not millionaires and ARE married know the drill. You make two trips to Africa, you have a Jaguar convertible or vette or muscle car and a new HD in the garage. She turns to you and says "It is MY turn.". So, in a fit of temporary insanity (aka post-coital passion) you promise her a new car before planning any more big ticket purchases or trips.

She picked out a VW Jetta TDI a couple months ago, and the last two weeks of August they had a 1.99% financing deal. My conservative (other than picking me out) wife picked out a Salsa Red one last Wednesday. Car came home Friday, and I have been trying to figure out a deal to go back next spring since yesterday.

So, it's not about me; but this is how I am going to make a trip every year AND have a happy wife. I got the first two in by paying off our house.

regards,


Rich
DRSS/SSR

Yes, there is room at my table for everyone...

Rich!!!!! Man I got it!!!!!

Next time you go to Africa you can play dress up and go “throw back” on another continent. Get you a big old long spear to kill that Lion we talked about over on the Africa Forum. Then get all Kuntakinta and catch you a Guinea with your bare hands.

No excuses friend...start planning today.

Sort of made me think of bow hunters. Some wonder why others are using a crossbow instead of a more traditional bow like the "compound bow" they are using. Some wonder why others use a bow with 80% let-off instead of a more "traditional" 50% let-off. Some wonder why others use a compound bow instead of a more traditional bow, like the recurve they shoot. Other's wonder why people don't use a more traditional long bow like they shoot. Some even question why others don't make their own bows and arrows like they do.

P.S. Oh, I forgot to say that I use a traditional flintlock inline muzzle loader with Black Triple Pyrodex Powder.

Ted,

did you forget to take your meds again today?
What do you wear deer hunting there?

Rich

Yea I took them first thing this morning…… what, you didn’t like my idea?

I even had a visual.

Pretty much the same one I had earlier but the loin cloth was red and you was holding this very long steel tipped spear…..
you even had one of those long oval leather shields. You see, then you would be able to call it something other than a shoot.
A hoot is what I would call it....it could be fun.

Just think about it for a second…

You will warm up to it by next year. Post the Video.

Well, not that the majority of people would undertand, but everything that every hunters does, affects us ALL. Walking out of a sporting goods store a couple days before the season with everything you need, dosn't make you a hunter, regardless of the charges on your credit card. Nobody wants to take the time to learn anything, why would you, when you can just buy it right? Most of our primitive weapons seasons were hard won fights, by people that wanted to connect with the past and avoid the crowds of you know what, that come with the general firearms seasons, now the you know whats are in the archery and ml seasons and there is no where to go to get away from them. I'm not saying they don't have as much right to be there as I do, I'm just saying they will never know, what they missed out on and they and I have very very little in common.

I have used a traditional flintlock muzzle loaders (even killed my biggest muzzle loader deer with one). However, I just can't see arguing over the type of muzzle loader people use. Someone shouldn't look down on those who like the modern muzzle loaders. Personally, I'm glad people are hunting! Everywhere you turn someone is against hunting or guns. We sportsmen ought to be supporting and encouraging one another. If innovations get more people involved, all the better. Our gun rights are precious and I'm in favor of everything that gets another person involved in shooting and hunting.

I don't buy into the big tent theory that anything that puts someone into hunting or shooting is good for all of us. I have seen the enemy and most of the time it is US! I've guided a lot of "hunters" and I can tell you that if I wasn't already a veteran hunter, some of these people would have turned me into an anti-hunter! When it comes down to the ONLY important thing is the making the kill and HOW you do it makes no difference? Then you and I have nothing in common.

quote:

Originally posted by loboga:
Oh yeah and guys shooting traditional gear have much better manners.

You think?

TT,

not only that, but we are usually much better looking, and date much higher maintenance women.



regards,

Rich

quote:

TT,

not only that, but we are usually much better looking, and date much higher maintenance women.

I can't(won't) argue with that!.

What do you traditionalists think of this rifle? It out performs most inlines and is as traditional as can be as it was originally designed and built in 1837. It launches a 12 bore ball at 1900 FPS or a 20 bore ball at 1475 FPS and I've heard they are dead on accurate.

I've considered ordering one as they fill any definition of the traditional yet offer superior performance.

http://pacificriflecompany.blogspot.com/

I personally like the traditional stuff. I do own 2 inlines which I don't use much anymore. I lent my encore to my daughter to hunt with this year. I did load my other inline, on a rainy day, but ended up taking a hunk of leather to cover the lock, and used my flintlock to take a 7 point buck. I just like tinkering with the flintlock and the additional challenge.

That said I am retired and can pretty much hunt in my back yard, so I have lots of time to hunt. If my hunting time was limited or if I did not hunt in such a deer infested area you might well see me with a scoped inline.

Anyhow there is no going back on this issue, game departments need the money that the inline hunters produce in the way of licenses.

quote:

Originally posted by surestrike:
What do you traditionalists think of this rifle? It out performs most inlines and is as traditional as can be as it was originally designed and built in 1837. It launches a 12 bore ball at 1900 FPS or a 20 bore ball at 1475 FPS and I've heard they are dead on accurate.

I've considered ordering one as they fill any definition of the traditional yet offer superior performance.

http://pacificriflecompany.blogspot.com/

Interesting, but I'm a flintlock kind of guy.