The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Hunting Muzzleloading Big Game Hunting Did Jim Shockey sell out to TC?Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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Saw a show this weekend and noticed he is now pushing the TC rifle even though he used a Knight for the hunt..he missed his shot BTW. Anyone else hear anything. TC must be spending a ton on advertising. Seems like every show you see has someone shooting them! Hell maybe if Winchester had done the same they would still be in business! ****************************************************************** R. Lee Ermey: "The deadliest weapon in the world is a Marine and his rifle." ****************************************************************** We're going to be "gifted" with a health care plan we are forced to purchase and fined if we don't, Which purportedly covers at least ten million more people, without adding a single new doctor, but provides for 16,000 new IRS agents, written by a committee whose chairman says he doesn't understand it, passed by a Congress that didn't read it but exempted themselves from it, and signed by a President, with funding administered by a treasury chief who didn't pay his taxes, for which we'll be taxed for four years before any benefits take effect, by a government which has already bankrupted Social Security and Medicare, all to be overseen by a surgeon general who is obese, and financed by a country that's broke!!!!! 'What the hell could possibly go wrong?' | ||
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I've never been a fan of his. Anything he writes and/or endorses should be taken with a grain of salt. I'm of the opinion that he has a large soap box and uses that as a tool to get what he can get out of it. I think the manufacturers recognize this and therefore like to use him. I'm sure he like many others will spend quite a bit of time posing with numerous products in front of their trophy taken on a sponsored hunt regardless of using the product or not. To be fair, I have a copy of the 1955 "Larry Koller's New Hunting Annual". It is almost laughable at how the writers try to get plugs in for their sponsors throughout the publication. I for one am a huge fan of Phil Shoemaker. I'm of the opinion that he walks the talk and if he is pleased with a certain product it is because it works and not because someone pays him to say it does. Gary | |||
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I was at the SCI Show in reno this weekend, and saw a large photo/poster of him with a stainless Encore. Thought it looked like he switched. | |||
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Yes he has switched. But I was a Encore fan from day one. I don't need Jim Shockey's endorsement for me to like T/C products. Jim Shockey is like the rest of use and works for a living and is money driven. I am jealous I can't go on all the hunts he goes on with someone else footing the bill, so tell me who would not want his job. If you're going to make a hole, make it a big one. ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ Member of the Delaware Destroyers Member Reeders Misfits NRA Life Member ENDOWMENT MEMBER NAHC Life Member DSA Life Member | |||
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About this subject Jim Shockey says on his website, "AS FAR AS THE KNIGHT VERSES TC I’VE SWITCHED OVER FROM KNIGHT TO THOMPSON CENTER, I’M USING A THOMPSON CENTER ENCORE RIGHT NOW AND INTEND TO STAY WITH THOMPSON CENTER FIREARMS FROM HERE ON IN IN MY HUNTING CAREER. TONY KNIGHT IS A GOOD FRIEND OF MINE AND MADE AN EXCELLENT GUN AND THE ORIGINAL MK85 AND THEN ALSO DESIGNED THE KNIGHT DISC RIFLE BUT FOR THE POWERS THAT BE AT KNIGHT NOW THOSE ARE OLD NEWS. SO THEY’VE SWITCHED OVER TO PROMOTING THE REVOLUTION AND WHAT THEIR NEW GUN WHATEVER THAT HAPPENS TO BE BUT THOSE AREN’T GUNS FOR ME PERSONALLY, I’VE SWITCHED OVER TO THE THOMPSON CENTER ENCORE AND I ALSO HAVE AN OMEGA WHICH IS A GREAT GUN AS WELL" He also says, "AS FAR AS SWITCHING OVER YES I HAVE. FOR YEARS I SHOT TONY KNIGHTS DESIGNED MK85 AND TONY’S DISC RIFLE. THE NEWER KNIGHTS WERE NOT DESIGNED BY TONY AND I TRIED USING ONE FOR A YEAR AND HAVE DECIDED TO SWITCH OVER TO THE THOMPSON CENTER LINE OF MUZZLELOADERS. USING THE ENCORE I’VE HAD ONE OF THE BEST STRINGS OF ONE SHOT KILLS I’VE HAD IN YEARS SO I’M VERY HAPPY WITH THE CHANGE. I’M A HUNTER AND ITS MY OPINION I SHOULD USE THE BEST PRODUCT AVAILABLE TO DO MY JOB ETHICALLY AND AS CONSISTANTLY AS POSSIBLE AND THAT’S WHY I’VE SWITCHED OVER." | |||
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I bet there was a lot of coin involved! Funny he gives the gun credit for a string of 1 shot kills....guess I dont blame the guy for switching if it means more money in his pocket. I would do the same thing! ****************************************************************** R. Lee Ermey: "The deadliest weapon in the world is a Marine and his rifle." ****************************************************************** We're going to be "gifted" with a health care plan we are forced to purchase and fined if we don't, Which purportedly covers at least ten million more people, without adding a single new doctor, but provides for 16,000 new IRS agents, written by a committee whose chairman says he doesn't understand it, passed by a Congress that didn't read it but exempted themselves from it, and signed by a President, with funding administered by a treasury chief who didn't pay his taxes, for which we'll be taxed for four years before any benefits take effect, by a government which has already bankrupted Social Security and Medicare, all to be overseen by a surgeon general who is obese, and financed by a country that's broke!!!!! 'What the hell could possibly go wrong?' | |||
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Wonder how long it will be before TC has a "smokeless" barrel for the Encore? I'd buy one. The year of the .30-06!! 100 years of mostly flawless performance on demand.....Celebrate...buy a new one!! | |||
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The guy uses inline rifles, so I never payed any attention to him. | |||
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I agree, it seems as if every hunting show has some guy with a scoped inline shooting 150-200 yd's. No different then using a high power. I never see any flinters used or the guy stalking close enough to use one. I don't know how many deer I have taken with flinters, maybe 50 or 70 because thats all I used in Ohio and PA for years. I would track the deer in the snow and I would not trade the fun and experience for all the inlines in the world. Now I have nothing against inlines and they have their place but I don't think they belong in primitive seasons. Most states have taken "primitive" out and use muzzle loader for the season name. I have never had the same problem with archery, compound VS recurve, because you can't shoot any farther. When you hunt and stalk close with a flinter it is satisfying, unlike the guy that can shoot 200 yd's which is just shooting, not hunting. Yes, I have killed a few deer with high power rifles but I sold them real quick. I either use a flinter or revolver now after archery season. Any boob can "shoot" a deer but few can "hunt" them. | |||
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First off, I am not Mark that writes for Muzzleloader Mag., but he is a nice guy! I have always used flint or sidelock cap guns for most hunting and have had great successs. I also shoot often and know my limits and also the rifle's limits. (my eyes too!) I have never thought that the new in-line rifles were any advantage, or that I was handicapped using a flint rifle. Shockey has always seemed to mug the camera with his inline, and endorse his product. I have always thought his writings were a paid endorsement of a product. Maybe now he is paid or at least, shall we say- "compensated" by TC. Is there anything wrong with that? Well, we all have to make a living. I guess it beats many other jobs. Also, while stalking game and getting within 100 yards, the properly placed lead round ball kills efficiently and I have never lost an animal nor had to shoot one twice. I'll stop rambling! Mark | |||
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I've never been impressed with paid advertisements by the pro hunters and fishermen that appear on the outdoor shows.I liked hunting and fishing so much I worked to obtain a degree in wildlife mgt taking range mgt and fishery courses also.I purchase what I know works from a lifetime of experience,the TC Encore platform is like no other imo as there are so many caliber choices for handgun and rifle hunting by TC and other manufacturers such as http://www.matchgrademachine.com , http://www.sskindustries.com , http://www.bullberry.com & http://www.coyoteguns.com . | |||
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When buying muzzleloader components, never trust the beliefs of a magazine gun writer on it's magazine's endorsement payroll. A perfect example is why Jim Shockey Gold Powder is $1 more than it's sister American Pioneer. Someone has to pay the endorsement fee & telling us double-filtering is the reason for higher costs is ridiculous. All the granules do before reaching the Shockey jugs is talk a longer ride before dumping. Trying to make it look different by changing the granule dye-coloring is misleading also. Need help choosing your ML components? That what forums/messageboards do best. The best reviews are at places like this one. Multiple posts covering any subject is a must when trying to decide the brand name & model #. | |||
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I have personnally been a fan of Shockey's, simply because he is always selling himself or the product of whomever is paying for his hunts. If you really pay attention to his writing, he has a network of folks, looking for certain animals, for him to go shoot. In one instance, it was a Roosevelt Elk, that was close to a world record for a muzzle loader, only to have someone else come in and shoot a larger animal. Maybe it is Sour Grapes on a lot of our parts, but I just feel that things would be different if he were restricted to a patched round ball and a regular percussion cap. I wonder how well he would fare with a Flinch Lock. JMO Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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I tend to agree with your position, although with the numbers of hunters (dont know about fisherman) declining, I often think it is needed to promote our heritage and sport by attracting younger people, woman, and others to our ranks. It's sad, here in Durango, CO we used to see the kids get out of school for elk season.... that hasnt happened in years. I for one kind of get tired of seeing hunters become celebrities and tout products, but if it is one of the pillars that potentially supports our sport, so be it. | |||
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So if you don't hunt like you do, you don't consider it hunting. Get real, I bow hunt, handgun hunt, muzzleloader hunt and rifle hunt. It is all hunting. Quit trying to make yourself look good by saying there is only one way to hunt. Go sell your crap to someone who cares. If you're going to make a hole, make it a big one. ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ Member of the Delaware Destroyers Member Reeders Misfits NRA Life Member ENDOWMENT MEMBER NAHC Life Member DSA Life Member | |||
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There was a long talk about him leaving Knight on NAHC foruim. He go's by DaGriz there . Here is a post he made on the subject . I am not involved in any way , just passing along the link and a copy of a post Johnch
NRA life Delta Pheasants Forever DU Hunt as if your life depended on your results | |||
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Sell out implies he's endorsing a lessor product only because he's being paid more. I'll take the Encore over Knight. How many here wouldn't switch jobs if it was a better deal. BTW Who the Hell is Jim Shockey and why do you care what he says? | |||
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Redhawk, I spent half of my life shooting woodchucks out past 600 yd's. When one was too close, I would walk the other direction to increase the range. THAT WAS SHOOTING! Are you trying to say it is different then stalking to within 20 yd's of one with a bow? Do you know the difference between hunting and shooting? Do you consider sitting in a tent blind at a water hole where the game can't see or smell you HUNTING or SHOOTING. Can you say I am going out to SHOOT a deer or can you say I am going out and HUNT a deer? I can go out every day of the year and SHOOT a deer in the field behind my house with a rifle. Boy would I be proud of that accomplishment. I could make it easier by building a shooting bench in my yard. I guess that would be cheating so I will build it in the woods so I can shoot into the field. MACHO! Maybe I better tent it over so I can drink coffee, move around and shoot the shit while the deer feed. No, I will just shoot OR IS IT HUNT, out of my bedroom window. Maybe I would get more out of it by HUNTING and stalking the deer in the open field with a bow or revolver. It is YOU that is throwing around the crap here. I can see you are NOT a hunter! | |||
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Just curious when does it stop being hunting and start being shooting? 50 yards, 75, 100,125...? | |||
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OK what ever you say, I am not here to impress you and frankly could give a rats ass about you or your opinion. Quit trying to put a distance on what is hunting and shooting. There is a difference in hunting and shooting. When someone is after game it is hunting, when we go to a range sighting in or just target practice it is shooting. bfrshooter, do you know me? Have you ever been hunting with me? If you answered no to either one or both of there questions, don't judge me! I consider any form of legal hunting, HUNTING. I don't think it makes a difference if I kill a deer from 15 yards with a bow or 300 yards with a rifle. To me each is just as much of hunting as the other. But to answer your question, I have stocked more of my kills than I have by sitting in a stand. I have shot a lot of deer, hogs and bear within 20 to 30 yards of me in the woods on the ground with no blind. But I don't ever knock anyone that wants to take a 200 yards shot and then try to belittle them by saying that is not hunting, it is shooting. Hunting is Hunting and as long as it is legal. It is time you got off your high horse, if you did not realize the higher you go the more your ass shows. If you're going to make a hole, make it a big one. ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ Member of the Delaware Destroyers Member Reeders Misfits NRA Life Member ENDOWMENT MEMBER NAHC Life Member DSA Life Member | |||
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OhioSam: Good question. "No one but he who has partaken thereof can understand the keen delight of hunting in lonely lands." | |||
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If you sit at the end of a field, 400 yd's from the deer, you are shooting. If you sit in a closed blind where deer can't see you, you are shooting, no matter the distance. When I shot my rifle deer, I was shooting long range, not hunting. When I sit in an open stand with deer close that can see or smell me, track or stalk, I am hunting. I differentiate between what I am doing in the field also. I am not running the way you hunt down and if you say you are hunting when you are out, fine. I only make a difference in the way the shots are taken. Long range rifle shots are shooting, as long as the animal can't see, hear, or smell you and doesn't stand a chance of detecting you, you are just shooting. If you take your rifle and stalk close, you are hunting. I say the same thing when I go squirrel hunting. If I take a rifle I go out to SHOOT some squirrels. If I take my pistol, I am going out to HUNT some squirrels and might not get any. I can sit at my shooting bench with sandbags and shoot squirrels all day but I would never say I was hunting them. Watch the hunting videos on TV and tell me that some of them are HUNTING. Yes, maybe someone HUNTED the spot that animals can be shot from. Yank that building or tent off the guy and see what he can do! That would make him hunt wouldn't it? It is the difference between two words. Hunting or shooting. I have done both and admit it. I prefer to hunt though. I just don't see how I ruffled your feathers so much by saying I sold my rifles because it was too easy to SHOOT deer. I have over 355 deer kills by every method, over 225 with the bow and a huge amount with revolvers and pistols. I see many deer at long range and do not want to shoot them that way. I go after them and consider that method HUNTING. I have deer in my front yard every day eating mullberries. I can shoot them from my deck. Would you say I was hunting deer, shooting deer or poaching deer. Like I said, any boob can shoot a deer. | |||
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bfrshooter, all of this post ruffled my feathers. You fail to realize that you as a hunter bad mouthing another form of hunting, hurts our sport more than an anti-hunter. You have now made a choice of what you feel is hunting, we cannot pick and chose what we think is hunting and then criticize others for choosing the way others chose to hunt. If it is legal it is hunting. When you as the hunters criticize the way others hunt, you have just jumped the fence to the anti-hunting crowd and are in my opinion worse than an anti-hunter. If you don't like another form of hunting, don't do it. Just don't put anyone else down for choosing to do it. If you're going to make a hole, make it a big one. ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ Member of the Delaware Destroyers Member Reeders Misfits NRA Life Member ENDOWMENT MEMBER NAHC Life Member DSA Life Member | |||
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Hey bfrshooter, If you can't see how someone ruffled the feathers of anyone who legally kills Game beyond a specific distance limit, perhaps you should read what the fool below said.
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My last statement was correct whether any of you like it or not! I see them every year, driving around in a pickup on State roads, glassing private property so they can SHOOT a deer from the road. And believe it or not, they will have their young son with them, teaching the proper method of road hunting---or is that SHOOTING. Then there are the road shooters that just shoot the deer for fun and drive off. I have had boobs get permission from the farm behind me, then sit out in the field to SHOOT deer in my woods without my permission. I have horses and other animals in my woods plus I am in there a lot. Yes, the boob had his children with him and they all hammered at a herd of doe, (in buck season.) more bullets flying then you can imagine, and dad was egging them on by hollering "shoot them!" I happened to be in the woods with a friend, hunting, and don't know why neither of us was killed. Do you for one second think that I would call them hunters? I call them boobs and if it disturbs you maybe it is because some of you fit the catagory. If you re-read my first post I defy anyone to tell me where I bad mouthed a hunter, when hunting legally in any way he desired! All I stated was that I did not prefer to SHOOT deer. When I refer to boobs, I refer to the above examples that I see every year. The properties around here are small and there is seldom more the 100 yd's before getting onto another property. I know of one fellow I class as a boob because he has had court injunctions placed against him so he does not go on any of his neighbors property to hunt. Because he has a long range rifle, he still shoots across the lines and then goes to get the deer after dark. Maybe I was unclear in that I was NOT calling the good hunter a boob. However, I live in an area over run with boobs. The rifle allows them to do what they do without getting caught and they will leave a deer rot if there is a chance of someone catching them. From the sounds some of you make, there must not be any of these type persons living and shooting where you hunt and all are perfect examples of perfect hunters, thank your lucky stars if this is true. I will NOT retract my statement when I say the rifle allows any boob to shoot a deer. THEY ARE NOT HUNTING NOR CAN I CLASS THEM AS HUNTERS! Think back of how each of you has used your rifle. If you have never done any of these things, accept my apologies because I was not refering to you in any way. I have doubts though about those that make the most noise over what I say. Either you live in a glorious area free from boobs or you have done the things I describe. | |||
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bfrshooter, had you use a better choice of words and wording in your first post, I may of understood your meaning. But in your last post I understand what you are saying. But the people you described shooting deer off the road is illegal and therefor not hunting, shooting doe's in buck season is illegal and is not hunting. But sitting on the edge of a field hunting during normal hunting seasons is hunting, hunting from a ground blind during hunting season is hunting. Your implication of using a inline muzzleloader to make a 200 yards shot was shooting not hunting. If it is muzzleloader season and the person has a hunting license and is legally hunting, 200 yards is hunting no matter how you look at it. Hunters are our own worst enemies, we as hunters need to choose our words more carefully when we speek in public or in open forums like this one. On a side note, how far are you from Romney WV? If you're going to make a hole, make it a big one. ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ Member of the Delaware Destroyers Member Reeders Misfits NRA Life Member ENDOWMENT MEMBER NAHC Life Member DSA Life Member | |||
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I live in Bakerton, near Harpers Ferry. I hope all of you understand me now. The difference I was trying to make about hunting and shooting was just the word definition as regards both methods of hunting, not that shooting is not hunting per say. I never meant to sound superior or to ruffle anyone. Just explaining my feelings about being up close and personal VS shooting longer ranges. Yes, we have tons and tons of boobs here that sneak in from every direction because we have a lot of deer. All they would have to do is ask if they are neighbors. Most are outsiders though. Our development by laws say no hunting or shooting but most of us here do it and tolerate it. Even those that do not hunt, let all of us hunt. I find 8 or 10 rotting deer after every season in areas where our residents will not hunt or shoot because of the houses or lay of the land. You are correct in that it is not legal, but how to catch them? After they shoot, they dissappear. They may restrict firearms to shotguns here soon and it would not bother me. It would keep the boobs from shooting clear across the fields into private property. | |||
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I just bought 20 Acers in Romney, about an hour and a half west of you. I bought it to hunt on and build a house on. I plain on retiring there in about 5 to 7 years. If you're going to make a hole, make it a big one. ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ Member of the Delaware Destroyers Member Reeders Misfits NRA Life Member ENDOWMENT MEMBER NAHC Life Member DSA Life Member | |||
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Sounds real nice! I hope you can keep it to yourself and your friends. We have an old quarry on the development and you would not believe the people from VA, MD, NY, even AK, you name it, that sneak in to swim. They trash the place with bottles and garbage. They tear down the signs and even bring cutting torches to cut chains and locks. We had cars towed, flattened tires, left notes and posted guards and it is hopeless trying to keep them out. Most of us have given up. One of our neighbors was even beaten up trying to run some punks off. Some snuck up the hill and robbed the neighbors house last week. | |||
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well maybe (Hope) I don't get Ya'll mad but here goes... Hell I'd love to have Ole" Jim's job,even with all that big money...(my wife would like the cash.) T/C does make side lock and flint locks,that shot like and load like,a in line.Myself,I'd rather shot 100 grains or 150 grains of powder than 80 or 90 anyday.No I don;t use old style blackpower anymore,I prefer Thriple7,cause it cleans up better an eaiser than old black. I started with CVA Ml's,I have sold all them excetp 1,threw it in a river,it had a miss fire problem even sent it back twice to be worked on,so it got the deep six. The T/C I like cause I can get different barrels(new toys)for it,at lower cost than a regular rifle.The only time that don't really apply is on some make of pistols,but if ya reload it(wildcats)the fun factor goes way up the scale. Everyboby dislikes slob hunters,an there are always some anywhere ya go(ain't talk'n about you folks).I started hunting on clubs(deer leases) cause of them.An the woods was getting a little over run with holiday hunters,makes a man nervous with everbybody shooting like their in Nam'. When I shoot a deer I prefer he didn't hear the shot that killed him,seems to me the meat is tuff'er if he runs very far or been run.But that may just me.Some people I know don't think so.Again thats just what I think.But back to Ole' Jim.... If I could ever afford a guided hunt,it would be with him.Cause he's either the most savy hunter there is or the luckest,either one or both is hard to beat.Ya'll keep your caps dry,be safe,have fun | |||
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Us Alaskans have to improvise, the water's too solid for swimming much of the year! Seriously, I understand the point of your argument and frustration. Everytime someone comments that they don't personally like high fences/900yd big game sniping/baiting/hunting over feeders/food plots/game ranches/road hunters, or now, inline muzzleloaders, the folks who see themselves in those comments (rightly or wrongly!) go ballistic. This month's Rifle magazine has a letter from someone fearing that the widespread use of scoped/stainless/synthetic inlines with saboted jacketed bullets and pellets could jeprodize special seasons as kill rates have increased. Hopefully we won't kill the goose that..... Bob DRSS "If we're not supposed to eat animals, why are they made out of meat?" | |||
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Bob: I've often wondered about that very subject, the justification for special early ML seasons. I sure as heck don't want to lose those, my favorite place to be in September is in the Colorado mountains chasing elk. As it is now, general firearms hunters have to wait until mid-October, after the rut. Seems that if we get to the point where the average joe with all the latest ML equipment can make a 200 yard shot consistently, then the justification for an early season goes out the window. Bottom line though, I think we're OK as long as game populations (elk in CO, whitetails in other places) stay as high as they are. If they drop though, I think game managers may want to cut back on our early seasons. BTW, that's a great signature line you've got there, I have that on a bumper sticker on my truck. "No one but he who has partaken thereof can understand the keen delight of hunting in lonely lands." | |||
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Thompson center has approached alot of people in the outdoor business. They give lots of product to shows to get to be a sponsor. | |||
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Has anyone ever done a scientific study that shows there is a dramatic increase hunter success with inlines? In my area most deer are killed inside 50 yards. I don't see that there a big advantage at normal ranges. However I do think better bullets(jacketed and sabots) have made a difference. What I like about inlines are easier cleaning esp. stainless ones, tend to be shorter and lighter, and scope mounting. In my hunting situation low powered scopes are faster on target. | |||
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Ohiosam, I don't believe anyone has done such a study. But there have been studies done that show there is no advantage (ballistically) to using an inline over a caplock or flintlock ignition provided all other things are equal. "No one but he who has partaken thereof can understand the keen delight of hunting in lonely lands." | |||
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A number of years ago Ohio division of wildlife said that the success rate of muzzleloaders and crossbow was about the same. Ohio allows crossbows in archery season. Many people attribute almost magical qualities to inlines. I recently had a discussion with a fellow who claimed that inlines were much more accurate the sidelocks, but I couldn't get him to explain why. I can keep shots from my iron sighted Renegade in 3" at 100 yards, my scoped Encore 1 1/2" at 100 yards. Probably if the Renegade had a scope the difference would be negligable. | |||
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The Mountainman left the flintlock & moved on to the Hawken because of what? I never really viewed them as being sloppy wimps or boobs. Once I saw a poster on another forum state that hunters should agree & set rules on the cartridges we used (about centerfires), how we hunt or the way we hunt, what the maximum range would be, etc. LOOK'S LIKE DANGEROUS CRAP TO ME! I have a couple of stands that I hunt each year that allow long shots & my other stands are shorter range stands that I use for rifles, handguns, mz, or bow. And sometimes I hunt from the ground with all of these weapons & I use climbers & hang-ons. So here is my question, the days that I hunt these long range stands, am I an inferior hunter those days because I can now see Deer cross 7 different trails instead of a couple ofd trails up close? Am I an inferior hunter that day because I have the skills to shoot a Deer in any of these trails & would I be a superior hunter if I turned down those longer shots, & no, any boob can't shoot longer shots because I see some short range boobs every year that can't hit their pie plate at 50 yards. No, I am the same guy no matter which stand I sit in & I use the same bow hunter type methods to approach my stands, scent control etc. whether hunting near or far. Alot of poachers shoot Deer at Flintlock ranges in the head with a 22mag, so the illegal hunter is a totally separate issue. | |||
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