In the March issue of Field & Stream they posted the results of a poll they took. One question was
" Hunters that used scoped, in-line muzzleloaders are violating the spirit of the law, and their guns are no more primitive than most centerfire deer rifles." results were pretty well divided 54% agreed, 46% disagreed.

I hunt with both, I don't really see that much difference. The biggest difference I see is a faster lock time and more positive ingnition on inlines. I don't really see a big accuracy advantage at my normal hunting range, never shot a deer over 100 yards. The biggest limitation with a ML is under most situations you have ONE shot and you better make it good.

Interested in other opinions. Sam

I like all firearms. There is no limit to the people that will turn up their nose to whatever kind of firearm that you choose to hunt with. I know bow hunters that think hunting deer with a gun period,is not sporting! I've hunted with handguns, M/L's, bow, shotgun, rifle, blowgun and sling shot. Pick your poison, I don't care what you hunt with. If you bring home a 185 BC buck, I don't care if you used an M1 Abrahms tank, good job! The same thing comes up in the gun control argument. I think my AR15 is just as much worth protecting as my TC Encore. And no I don't "need" the AR but I don't need the Encore either. The store has lots of food. In short I don't think any of us can afford to judge what anybody else thinks is a sporting arm.
JMHO,
Rich

I've hunted w/ an older style side hammer Mler w/ fixed sites and used real black and a patched round ball. It was not very effective on deer IMO so I switched to an inline. I quickly found that it put deer down more humanely due to the better selection of bullets/sabots, higher velocities at impact due to better BCs, and alittle more effective range. Then, our state started allowing scopes which made it even more effective and stretched the range alittle more.

I started hunting an area that was open fields and only had a short MZ season and one week rifle season. After hunting there a couple of seasons and having to let just about every good buck go because they were around 160-200 yards I realized my inline wasn't even enough so, I looked into the Savage Smokeless. It increased my effective range to 200 yards and the first season I used it in that area, I killed a 140 class 9pt and a 115 class 8pt, both of which were over 150 yards. I only purchased that Mler to hunt in that area and it has worked well for that purpose. When I hunt my other areas, I use a Knight inline or CVA inline w/ BP subs.

From hunting w/ each type, I still feel like they all are just the same w/ the exception of their capable effective range. All load from the Muzzle and all shoot one time.

I will say that the inlines have proven to be much more reliable. I had one of the biggest 8pts I've been on get away from me at a mere 10-15 yards because that dang side hammer job misfired, I took it to the camp placed another cap on it and blew a hole through a milk jug at around 50 yards. Just wasn't his time I suppose.

I don't see Muzzleloading as any different from rifle or shotgun hunting. If a man chooses a 223 to hunt deer, I have no problem w/ that as long as he knows it's limitations, I simply prefer a 30-06, 300 Mag, or similar.

Reloader

"Spirit of the law" is pretty clearly defined by the letter of the law in most states.

Sounds like Field & Stream asked the question in way designed to create maximum disagreement. Inlines, like compound bows, are rulebeaters designed to make maximum use of the letter of the law. Big deal; I own and hunt with both. But, while both are short range hunting implements neither are primitive weapons. When you start trying to define primitive is when you start skidding down the slippery slope. The short-lived caplock system is not nearly so primitive as a flintlock. A recurve made with carbon fiber bound by space age epoxies cleverly concealed by exotic wood veneers is not nearly so primitive as an osage selfbow. Somewhere there are people hunting with matchlocks or atlatls and perhaps they can lay claim to the moral high ground. More power to them, but I'm happy they are not writing the regs for Fish & Game. So far more deer have fallen to my flintlocks than to my 209x50, but more deer have fallen to my compounds than to my recurves. Bottom line, many of our fellow hunters using inlines and compound bows wouldn't be hunting in the muzzleloader or archery seasons at all without them and the future of hunting needs all the hunters we can get.

quote:

Originally posted by nordrseta:
Sounds like Field & Stream asked the question in way designed to create maximum disagreement.

I think you're right. Even though the results are evenly divided hunters are overwelmingly voting for inlines with their wallets. I started ML hunting with a TC Renegade about 1980. Several in the group only hunted with MLs, mostly TC Hawkins. Most have switched to inlines, a couple still use their Hawkins but have put red dots sights on them(older eyes). I think some traditional ML hunters are uncomfortable with the increased numbers of hunters during the ML season here in Ohio. 25 years ago the checking stations were a much lonlier place in ML season

I have had many side lock ML rifles all of witch at one time or another misfired. My MK85 has never misfired even while hunting in the rain and it used to fire #11 caps. I have since converted it to shoot 209 primers. I have never had a flint lock but one day I will and I will take it deer hunting because of the challenge.

I wouldn't hunt in the muzzy season with anything but inlines.

quote:

Originally posted by Swede44mag:
I have never had a flint lock but one day I will and I will take it deer hunting because of the challenge.

Why not try it now?

quote:

Originally posted by small fish:
I wouldn't hunt in the muzzy season with anything but inlines.

Why not?

I find the inline side lock debate intresting. Read this.

The in-line design has been around for years, as exemplified by Jean Samuel Pauley’s in-line system of 1812. The Germans also had an in-line flintlock design as early as 1738. So the belief that sidelock muzzleloaders are the more historically accurate traditional firearms is false. Unquestionably, the in-line style is more popular among today’s traditional hunters and shooters, says Tim Pancurak of Thompson/Center Arms. “In-lines represent the majority of our muzzleloader sales,†he said—an amazing statistic considering that T/C’s first true in-line muzzleloader was introduced in 1993. Dudley McGarity, national sales manager of Connecticut Valley Arms (CVA), says in-lines now make up about 80 percent of that company’s sales. “They have really come on strong in the past few years,†he said. “The in-line has enticed a lot of hunters to try muzzleloading. The in-line looks more familiar and is perceived to be easier to use. It is also perceived that they are more reliable and more accurate than the old traditional guns.â€

The inlines just lend them selves to updateing better.

Al

quote:

Originally posted by small fish:
I wouldn't hunt in the muzzy season with anything but inlines.

For one,I'm left handed and the flint being right in front of my face scares me,and two,I have invested over $1,000 in my two inline rifles.

I have a Knight BK 92 that I learned to muzzleloader hunt with. That rifle is very accurate but a bitch to clean. I like my stainless Encore much better as it is easy to clean,accurate and it really "fits me".

I am of the school where you hunt with the latest and greatest because that is what humans thrive on,the ability to do just that!

There are some here that wish to be handicapped by using "old school" rifles because ??? YOU GOT ME!!!

Traditionalists will take a bolt action rifle out in the rifle season and be the first to condemn us for using an inline in muzzleloader season. Hypocrits I'd say. I don't want to insult anyone here but that logic makes NO sense to me.

If you want to hunt with a flintlock, God bless and good luck. My first year M/L hunting I had a 60 yd. shot at a very nice 8 pt. in the rain. The sound of the cap going off on the side lock scared the hell out of the deer. Now that is the best possible case because if the gun had gone off 1/25 of a second after the trigger was pulled I would have probably hit the bugger in the ass and watch his wounded hind end bound away. I don't have to worry as much about that now with the Encore. Look, I used to look down on bowhunters because I found a couple of half eaten deer with arrows sticking out of them. Now I am a bow hunter. Let people hunt with what they want as long as the animal isn't tortured.

I have never hunted with a traditional type ML so I have nothing bad to say about them. I have had four different in-lines over the years and have settled on a Savage because I own three of their CF rifles. I believe everyone has the right to their own opinion on any subject under the sun. But when it comes to the hunting and shooting sports we better keep them out of print or the anti hunters and anti gunners will use our own opinions against us to divide and conquer. People in our own ranks includeing the mag article writers are doing a great job of this. Talk about it over the camp fire and leave it there.

My first ML is an inline I bought to hunt a special Utah late season for mule deer. Since it was an outfitted hunt on private land, I wanted the thing to work! It did, but I passed on the largest buck that I saw.

This year I got it out again to go hunt in Colorado on a friend's place where ML season makes the most sense.

I think the Fish & Game Departments like ML hunters because they can sell the same deer more than once, at least in the West they can.

I checked out a really nice Davide Pedersoli flintlock that I would buy and use if I wanted to do the primitive route.

jim

I almost didn't post this topic because I thought it might start a flame war. However I'm a little suprised no one defended the poll question or results.

I bought one of the first TC Thunderhawks when they came out, about 1994. At that time Knight were just becoming popular around here. I've since stepped up to an Encore. What I like about Encore: 1 enclosed ignition, primer can't fall off and snow can't get in. I don't change caps much in bad weather. 2 Easy cleaning from the breech and it's (God forbid) stainless. 3 great trigger!

If tomorrow I was told I'd have to go back to my sidelock I don't feel I'd be handicapped much. Loaded properly it always fired. Only misfire I can remember having while deer hunting was with the thunderhawk, but that's a long story. I think the real imporvement is in projectiles and propellents. Sabots and BP substitutes(not to mention smokeless) have increase velocity. Jacketed HP bullets kill quicker. If I had to go back to BP and round balls that would be worse then a traditional rifle.

As far as the poll goes, the F&S guys are just fishing to make noise and sell magazines.

There is no spirit of game laws, you either obey them or you don't. Shooters will pay what it takes to score better on the range, or bag those trophy critters.

Both types of rifles throw a big, fat bullet at much lower velocity than a centerfire rifle. The hunter must hunt inside that envelope.

I don't mind not having a scope because I use ghost ring sights, which are very well matched with the range capabilities of the ML (of whatever type).

jim

Hunter Jim, you said a mouthful.
While I hunt and target shoot with traditionals, the more shooters we get interested in m/l's the longer we will keep our favorite sports alive. If you prefer the convenience of an inline, have fun. Be safe, respect the game you hunt, the land you hunt on, and the people you share it with. If we as hunters and shooters can focus more on what we have in common, instead of getting pissy about our differences, we will all be better off.

quote:

Originally posted by nordrseta:

quote:

Originally posted by Swede44mag:
I have never had a flint lock but one day I will and I will take it deer hunting because of the challenge.

Why not try it now?

Lack of $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

quote:

quote:

quote:

I have never had a flint lock but one day I will and I will take it deer hunting because of the challenge.

Why not try it now?

Lack of $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

No troubles. Once you kill with a rocklock you'll sell the inlines (or at least all but one) and have plenty of cash...

quote:

Originally posted by small fish:

quote:

Originally posted by small fish:
I wouldn't hunt in the muzzy season with anything but inlines.

For one,I'm left handed and the flint being right in front of my face scares me,and two,I have invested over $1,000 in my two inline rifles.

I have a Knight BK 92 that I learned to muzzleloader hunt with. That rifle is very accurate but a bitch to clean. I like my stainless Encore much better as it is easy to clean,accurate and it really "fits me".

I am of the school where you hunt with the latest and greatest because that is what humans thrive on,the ability to do just that!

There are some here that wish to be handicapped by using "old school" rifles because ??? YOU GOT ME!!!

Traditionalists will take a bolt action rifle out in the rifle season and be the first to condemn us for using an inline in muzzleloader season. Hypocrits I'd say. I don't want to insult anyone here but that logic makes NO sense to me.

there are LEFT HAND Flintlocks on the market.

I handled a flint leftie yesterday... it was "new" being sold as used, but I don't remember what the asking price was, I do know the dealer that has it is willing to ship anything anywhere
(all paperwork in order of course) but FFL doesn't apply to a M-L of course....

I'll go take another look at it if anyone is actually interested, I welcome excuses to browse
a gunshop (like I "NEED" any excuses

as for the poll question?

Pennsylvania has two seperate ML seasons.
the early season (Buck only) where inlines are allowed and the "late" season which is Flint only. where it's either sex.
However if you've already gotten your buck in one of the earlier seasons...

I see the late "flint" season as another legal doe, because of the current antler restrictions
(six points atleast 3" long in most areas and four points in the rest of the state), because the current F&G effort is trying to "improve" the herd... and change the buck to doe ratio
(I'm not sure the deer are going to cooperate, but...)

I personally see Inlines as a "letter of the law" device, but you can make it as traditional as you like at your own choosing...

atleast PA has eliminated the requirement to
use only patched Round ball in the late flinter season.

I see that recently Oregon has "outlawed" the use of 209 primed M-L's...
Any other states enacted such rules changes?


AllanD

I just go with the path of least resistance. I had a TC Renegade for a long time and I never got it going well. If the place where I was hunting had a season that was not in the middle of winter and still requiring that a buck be shot I might have tried harder. There was little incentive to shoot the TC and I was not interested in it per se.

Then I started hunting in CT where I could get two more tags for buck or doe and to start the season over again. This is way too good to pass up and there is usually not nearly as much snow in CT as VT which is the state I was hunting in more in the past.

So I got a Savage ML10 11 and CT allows a scope as well. This rifle, while heavy, is accurate powerful and reliable. This interests me.

quote:

there are LEFT HAND Flintlocks on the market.

I don't use my Knight BK 92 because it is so hard to clean. A flinter? I don't think so.

Maryland has no such laws as to restrictions on type of muzzleloader. I like the latest and greatest anyway,no interest in going backwards.

As long as you use enough gun and hunt inside your envelope it's whatever offers you the most satisfaction. I'd hate to have to hunt w/round balls, but the only stipulation I'd set would be no round balls under 50cal. I've seen some really sickening performance from .45 prb's. Other than that, use what works and gives you joy. No big deal.

Allan,

Washington has also outlawed the use of 209 primers in ML.

I read an article Ross Seyfried wrote while he was still at Rifle/Handloader magagines on the Davide Pedersoli Mortimer English hunting rifle. Ross wrote a lot about vintage arms and hunting for those magazines, and his writing is very interesting. Although not a ML hunter, I got interested by what Ross wrote, much as I did with Skeeter Skelton and handguns.

Anyway this year at the SHOT Show I visited the Pedersoli booth and handled the Mortimer. It is a .54 cal flintlock round-ball rifle, and very nicely built. The particluar technology is circa 1830, or the pinnacle of flint ignition. Ross' article Explains All.

Anyway, I have put that rifle on my list to try.

jim

quote:

I visited the Pedersoli booth and handled the Mortimer. It is a .54 cal flintlock round-ball rifle, and very nicely built. The particluar technology is circa 1830, or the pinnacle of flint ignition. Anyway, I have put that rifle on my list to try.

Back when I reentered the game after a two decade hiatus I almost bought the Pedersoli Mortimer but then split the difference and bought a Lyman GPR flinter and the parts to build a Tulle Fusil de Chasse. The Mortimer is a lot of gun for the money.

I say to each his own. If it's legal to use, by all means do so. All muzzleloaders still involve some form of dropping/pouring powder into the barrel and loading a single bullet. If you want to nit pick, if people think using an in-line is unfair, we should all go the PA route and use flint locks only.

I have a flint lock, a .58 hawken, and a new Austin and Halleck .50. I use all of them to hunt with depending on the conditions and how I want to hunt. Great questions for the magazine to generate buzz.

If you want a modern, efficient rifle then get a .308 Winchester and call it done.

Reloader had it right when he said "they're all about the same except for the effective range." In-lines, flintlocks, and caplocks have been tested side-by-side and there was no difference in velocities or accuracy--it's the barrel, projectile, and charge that control those. Granted, a side-hammer gun or flintlock has less reliable ignition and longer locktimes which make shots on game less of a sure thing and more of a challenge.

But when you add accessories like scopes and saboted modern bullets that are smaller than bore diameter and push less air, you're really just trying to increase the effective range. No problem there until you start talking about special early seasons for "primitve" weapons. Modern muzzleloaders aren't primitive, but then again neither are compound bows. The thing they have in common is that hunters who choose to use them limit their effective range, and by doing so make themselves less likely to kill an elk or deer. So state game management agencies can justify early seasons for bowhunters (but no crossbows) and muzzleloaders, as long as the weapons don't cross some imaginary line and rival modern rifles in range and effectiveness. As a spokesman for the Colorado DOW once told me, "we originally created the special early season for hunters using primitive weapons that put them at a disadvantage compared to a modern rifle, so it's clear what the original intent was." The Colorado DOW gets a lot of criticism for its "archaic" rules banning scopes, sabots, and pelleted powders but IMO they've got it just about right because those are the things that separate a 100 yard (or thereabouts) effective range from a 200 yard range. Nothing magical about those numbers, but it's about the best that can be done IMO.

IMO, if you want to make 200 yard shots, hunt during the general firearms season.

To be honest this should be a non-issue.

What I have written below is a little over simplified, but I think you will get the point.

The state should assess the number of deer to be taken. They state should assess the % of deer taken per tag issues.
You should be able to buy a tag (or apply for the lottery) and then use whatever means you want to take the deer humanely anytime of the year where the animal is edible and it is not effecting the over all game population.

Buy your tag, shoot your deer the way you want to. Be safe. Don’t shoot a mother when it has young. Don’t kill them all because you want something for the kids to hunt….

quote:

In the March issue of Field & Stream they posted the results of a poll they took. One question was
" Hunters that used scoped, in-line muzzleloaders are violating the spirit of the law, and their guns are no more primitive than most centerfire deer rifles." results were pretty well divided 54% agreed, 46% disagreed.

Hard to believe they found one out of two that talked-down inlines. Since over 80% of muzzleloaders sold in the past few years are inlines, then this poll appears to be slightly flawed.

quote:

Originally posted by Sixgun Symphony:
If you want a modern, efficient rifle then get a .308 Winchester and call it done.

But if I try to hunt deer with that the game warden will throw me in jail! Will you come bail me out and pay the fines?? I can only use a shotgun, muzzleloader or a pistol(shooting staight wall cartridges)

Our "Primitive" season is between Christmas and New years often the deer are herded up and hard to find.

quote:

Originally posted by Sixgun Symphony:
If you want a modern, efficient rifle then get a .308 Winchester and call it done.

WTF does a .308 have to do with a muzzleloader. What a ridiculous statement. For someone that claims to want to dispatch their prey in the fastest and most painless way possible, you sure have a problem with using the most effective weapon possible within the law to do just that. If you were the highly ethical hunter that you claim to be, you would not be criticizing someone for using an inline in this post and then praising a person in another post for wounding an animal with a flinter and a ball and then taking until the next day to find it. Then you want to see pictures on top of that! Why, never seen a dead doe before?

The traditional flintlock and percussion ML rifles are effective and humane on game. Crimson Mister would know this if he knew more about shooting. But instead of wanting to learn he would rather project his lack of skill onto everyone else.

Inlines? Again, if you want a modern rifle then go get a .308 Winchester. If the law says you can't use it in muzzleloading firearms season, then get a tag for the modern rifle season.

sixgun symphony, what is it about inlines that makes them closer to a .308 than a caplock rifle, in your opinion?

I don't think anyone has advocated using anything that "the law says you can't use in muzzleloader season," did I miss something?

Fact is, most states allow inlines during muzzleloader seasons.

quote:

Originally posted by Sixgun Symphony:
The traditional flintlock and percussion ML rifles are effective and humane on game. Crimson Mister would know this if he knew more about shooting. But instead of wanting to learn he would rather project his lack of skill onto everyone else.

Inlines? Again, if you want a modern rifle then go get a .308 Winchester. If the law says you can't use it in muzzleloading firearms season, then get a tag for the modern rifle season.

Try readin' the post before ya reply, Dimwit. What I said was, your little make believe Daniel Boone fantasies are not the MOST effective means of killing an animal. If it were, we'd still be using flinters and round balls now wouldn't we Nancy. You claim to be concerned about an animals suffering, but all you're concerned with is stroking your own ego along with other parts of your body. So you get all dressed up in your buckskin dress and go huntin'. Or at least you sit in front of your computer and play a hunting game because I'll tell ya, in 31 years of hunting I ain't never run across anything like you in the woods. For others who read this post. I have no problems with someone hunting with a flintlock, bow, spear, wrist rocket, willow switch or anything else. Just don't get all high and mighty about what I choose to hunt with.

Rich

I hate to get involved in this because I think the primitive season is just that. The inline should only be used in a muzzle loader season or rifle season. Yes, it is only by definition of the season in whatever state you live in. I am not against using any gun for hunting and if all you have are large fields to shoot, the inline is fine with me.
I don't use one and have killed a pile of deer with .45 flinters, .50 and .54 percussions and the cap and ball revolver. Never lost a deer and almost never had to track one more then 40 yd's. Most fell even with what some call the "lowly .45."
The cap popping or the flint not sparking is part of the primitive aspect and has to learned to be lived with. What deer is so important that you can't laugh when it happens? Too many tight cheeks about guns not going off or deer too far. Nobody says "oh well, more days to hunt and time in the field." It seems that not getting that deer is more important to some then the pleasure of hunting. That is what a lot of youg hunters are being taught too, killing is more important then hunting. In the rush to get more people hunting, the values are going out the window too. This is not good for our sport and is one reason some seasons are labeled "primitive" so the values can be instilled. It also gives the deer more of a chance, something some people can't seem to tolerate
If you have a "muzzle loader season", I don't care what you use! I just prefer not to.

Excellent reply, bfrshooter. I agree.

"...atleast PA has eliminated the requirement to
use only patched Round ball in the late flinter season."

What's next? Red Dot sights allowed, too? It's labeled the primitive\flintlock season for a reason.

I've killed one whitetail with my Pedersoli Mortimer Target 54 cal flintlock. (I needed to take off the tang peep sight to be thoroughly legal.) Used a patched round ball I cast myself. My satisfaction was priceless. I felt kinda like Jed Clampett, except it was freezing cold with a foot of snow on the ground that January day.

quote:

Originally posted by HunterJim:
As far as the poll goes, the F&S guys are just fishing to make noise and sell magazines.

There is no spirit of game laws,
jim

Jim, while I agree entirely on your first sentence, I disagree entirely on your second. No surprise as you know me well enough to have guessed that. But muzzleloading seasons and laws in many, if not most states, were designed around the technology of the common early 19th century firearms.

Without a doubt, that has been completely lost on the bulk of modern muzzleloading hunters.

While inlines, in and of themselves offer no major advantages, the modern bullets certainly do as do scopes. The latter more for light issues than for range - though most people do not know how to shoot iron sights to their full potential. And then there are those that have to shoot smokeless powder. What's the point of a muzzleloading season with all of this?

Open sights and roundballs would be sufficient limitations, but unfortunatly, few states are willing to buck the technology trend.

If you decide to look for a flinter, there are better rifles out there than the Mortimer.

Brent

One of the reasons for changes in the name of seasons and use of inlines and scopes is due to the vastly increased deer herds in a lot of areas. Not enough are harvested and not enough does are taken to get the herds in balance.
Even though states like mine have liberalized the seasons and increased the bag limits, it has not been enough.
Why they don't just extend each season and give the primitive hunter a month or more is beyond me. It is easier to allow almost anything to hunt with.