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Arty, You quoted me, but you didn't really respond. I read you as repeating yourself. I like Canuck's reply but one thing exists that nobody mentions. GAME LAWS IN EVERY STATE ARE DIFFERENT. Also, EVERYBODY SEEMS TO TALK ABOUT ONLY THEIR OWN SITUATION. Now that's fine, but I've been in several states. I've seen the regs in the process of formulation. Also, I've seen the changes come and go. The apparent lack of reason disturbs me. It implies inept management. I personally believe that there is little or no opportunity for a primitive hunt in this country. Sure you can do it on your own, but you have to do it in the midst of modernism. E.g., in this state, bowhunters (of all kinds) must hunt during squirrel season. Yep, squirrel hunters out shooting squirrels out of trees. Some of those trees are inhabited (temporarily) by highly camouflaged bow hunters. I'm amazed one of them hasn't been shot. To me that's a safety issue. Aesthetically, how "pure" (for want of a better word) is a bow hunt when you have to listen to all the shooting? Granted, this question of aesthetics of hunting isn't the question here. Here we have a question of whether or not maxing out technology is appropriate for what was originally a hunt intended to be primitive. Clearly, and as has always been true, there are many differing opinions. | ||
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Ok, now that I've got your attention...  What DO you think of Hornady's creation? Great stuff? Another way to cheat the muzzleloading limitations?The ballistics tables shown in their ad give some mighty impressive ballistics. How does the flintlock rifle or smoothbore shooter compete with scoped guns that deliver 1368 fpe at 250 yards? Do you care? | |||
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"What DO you think of Hornady's creation?" Probably won't use it, cuz I use loose powder. "Great stuff?" Great for those who use pellets! "Another way to cheat the muzzleloading limitations?" Limitations are what some place on their muzzleloading experience. "How does the flintlock rifle or smoothbore shooter compete with scoped guns that deliver 1368 fpe at 250 yards?" They don't. "Do you care?" Nope | |||
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For me, getting to far away from patched round balls looses the reasons I have for BPR in general. For hunting, I guess I dont really care. BP has been more about having a fun time shooting, for me, and that is served well with PRB and loose BP. If we are talking accuracy in a BPR at longer ranges, put a scope on one and with the proper components you should get very impressive accuracy. Energy, on the other hand, is lacking in the average BPR at long range. You can make up for that to some extent with caliber increase, but real soon you get to a point where cartridge rifles are just better than BPR. Not more fun necessarily, just better hunting tools. For just hunting, a modern in-line shooting conicals, with a proper barrel, and a scope, is an awsome tool, just not allowed in most primitive season hunts. Take the scope off, now you match a lot of BP seasons requirements, but a 45-70 at the top end load wise might still surpass the performance. Short version for me, if you load it from the front one shot at a time, go for it in hunting. For fun, PRB's are hard to beat. | |||
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When I first read the thread I got so angry that I don't know if My post was deleted, I didn't enter properly, whatever. I will try to be more civil this time! I do not like inlines or what they have come to represent, or anything, anybody or animal that has been shot with them, in the name of "muzzleloading".'Nuff said Catnthehat | |||
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[quote..."Do you care?" Nope You must have, you posted...  | |||
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Quote: Come on Cat, tell us how you really feel.  | |||
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All right. The last time someone started explaining to me how he liked the "challenge and all "about hunting with a muzzleloader I asked him what he used. He said a Knight. I gave him the Eastwood remark"Don't piss down My neck and tell me it's raining!" They have a bolt action prime from the back, a lot have modern scopes... aw forget it , I'm gettin' pissed again!!!!!! Catnthehat | |||
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Quote: You must have, you posted... Okay, Hobie, What's your opinion, or are you simply trolling for an argument? Me, I would hope to see them outlawed around here - not likely though. Brent | |||
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Just another solution to a non-existant problem. I like my roundballs. I do have one of those new fangled ones but when it come to serious hunting I grab my round ball shooter and my horn. | |||
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Not trolling, I just wanted to gauge opinion on this further refinement for the in-line boys. Now, they have what is basically a single-shot using caseless ammo that will outdo many common (at least for my area) cartridge rifles like the .30-30. I personally believe, and have said so often, all over the net, that this is not in the spirit of the original intent of the muzzleloading hunts. However, the reason for the hunts has changed and that disappoints me. I agree that this type rifle should be moved to the regular gun season and the flintlock smoothbores to the muzzleloading season (my state permits smoothbores, cartridge or BP, only during the regular gun season  I hunt with conical or RB in my sidelock guns OR RB in my flintlock smoothbore (where I compete with others during the regular gun season! ) No it isn't likely and with the lobbying efforts of the industry, it is very unlikely indeed. | |||
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Quote: What a bunch of freakin snobs. I hear the same argument about compound vs recurve vs long bows, dog vs bait vs stalk hunters. Just what the anti's want to see. Disention in the ranks. I use an inline during the regular season. I hunt private property. How is that harming you? Just a bunch of snobs who think their way is the only way. | |||
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i use a long bow, i use a compound, i use a flint lock it dosnt matter what you use its the fact your out there enjoying nature and enjoying the sport that matters not the equipment you wish to use. as long as it is legal it should not matter!!! | |||
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The fact that these firearms are used to get around some basic flaws in the original design of priod muzzleloaders is what irks me, that and the fact that they are allowed in some "primitive seasons". I shoot Flinters, longbows, wildcats and cartridge blacks in a regular season, and have no problem leaving my caplock at home and shooting a matchlock ,if those are the rules. However , if you find me a "snob by only reading half, my post, fine- I guess I am. Get over it.The only person you are fooling in the end is yourself .Modern seasons, fine, B&C fine. But classed in with real muzzle loaders? what a joke. | |||
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I see a little more where this might be headed. If we only have the objective of shooting an animal, using the best tool for that is only common sense. Some of us choose to use less than the best tool, for many and varied reasons. A lot of those reasons amount to personal choice, not necessarily for the best tool but for what gives us a personal reward in what we do. It seems unfair to expect all other hunters to restrict themselves to the limits chosen by an individual hunter for himself. I chose to use patched round balls in my ML, which I have used in the regular rifle season, not just the "primitive" seasons. It doesn't make me better than the sabot users, the shotgun users, or the regular rifle users. It is a personal choice that defines what I am going to use to put that animal in the freezer, it does not define the moral condition of those that don't make the same choice. We couldn't have enough seasons for the specialty variations possible, if we did we would have to start with those that chose to hunt naked and barefoot, killing only with their hands and teeth. Yeah, it's supposed to be silly. If you meet the basic laws of the season, it's OK by me, even if I choose PRB's and open sights and it's not exactly the same as your choice. The personal reward I get involves me and what I do, not what everyone else does. While I do understand the sentiments of some, the real world just barely allows us to enjoy our own experience. It's a bit much have everyone line up with that, JMHO. | |||
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IMHO, in-line or not does not matter. What matters is ballisitcs. If states limited the bullet choice to round ball only, it would keep muzzle loader season for muzzle loaders. The rigs being used today are not in the spirit of the law. The range capability is to long. If the intent of the law it to increase the harvest and extend seasons, then I don't care. Shot anything you carry. | |||
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Quote: I guess I must be missing something here I went to Hornady's web site and I can't find anything about "Lock-N-Load Speed Sabot" what is it and where can I find it? Swede44mag | |||
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If you combine enough words from the site, it's kind of there. I guess shooting PRB's means you don't pay much attention to the hyperbole about the "newest latest greatest sure killer BP" load and projectile.  The Lock-N-Load seems to be a powder measure for BP cartridges, the sabot is there too, for muzzleloaders and you might be able to use them in cartridge loads also, I don't know. Hobie, look out, NetNanny will get you!!BTW, this does have a personal connection to me, as last week I got the diagnosis of MS. I can't wrap my mind around a special MS season, powered wheel chairs required. I'm afraid I will give it up before I let it become that parody of hunting to me. Let me stew on that for a year, I may change my mind. | |||
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QUOTE: When I first read the thread I got so ""angry"" that I don't know if My post was deleted, I didn't enter properly, "whatever. I will try to be more civil this time! I do not like inlines or what they have come to represent, or anything, ""anybody"" or animal that has been shot with them, in the name of "muzzleloading".'Nuff said QUOTE: All right. The last time someone started explaining to me how he liked the "challenge and all "about hunting with a muzzleloader I asked him what he used. He said a Knight. I gave him the Eastwood remark"Don't piss down My neck and tell me it's raining!" They have a bolt action prime from the back, a lot have modern scopes... aw forget it , I'm gettin' ""pissed again!!!!!!"" REQUOTE: I do not like inlines or what they have come to represent, or anything,****anybody**** or animal that has been shot with them, in the name of "muzzleloading".'Nuff said What half did I miss?? You are pissed, and crying because somebody else is not doing it your way. THAT makes you an elitist snob. The hunting world would be better off without that kind of attitude. | |||
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I really don't care if people don't do it "my way" as you put it, because it is not my way. It is the rules and regulations set out by the different states, provinces and the Boone and crockett club that people are trying to get around that bugs me. As far as the world being better off without me because I am an elitist snob, that is your opinion, and you are entitled to it. Good hunting to you, I wish you no ill. catnthehat | |||
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Quote: Never said the world would be better off without you, Just that kind of attitude. We hunters have to stick together, in spite of our differences. What you hunt with, and what I hunt with, is of no consequence. Getting mad at your fellow hunter helps the sport little. In Michigan, the anti's were trying to pit the bait hunters against the dog hunters. Lucky for us, it didn't work. Again, we need each other to keep this sport alive. Our attitudes can kill us quick. | |||
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As for the original questions; Great stuff? Not really. Just another gimmick. I don't use the pyrodex because it is just as corrosive as BP. I don't use pellets because I have seen them burning outside the barrel, and I get poor accuracy. I prefer loose 777. Another way to cheat? If enough people cared, they would change the rules. How does the flintlock rifle or smoothbore shooter compete? I have seen scopes on flintlocks. A good shot can kill a deer with a roundball at some impressive ranges. The smoothbore shooter is handicapping himself badly- his choice. Do I care. Not that much. My best buck with a muzzle loader was killed at 20 feet, with a sidehammer loaded with a roundball. I killed my best buck ever with an open sighted .357 pistol at 20 yards. I don't think the choice of weapon mattered at all. | |||
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Hobie, I too hunted some of these early BP seasons, and you are right, there is a lot of variation in the laws depending on the location. Perhaps that is as it should be, local regulation perhaps can be influenced by the local hunter population better than doing it at a federal level. Responding to the local population may in fact advance the cause of hunting in most locations. What you say is right, it seems that every effort is made to find a way to be within the letter of the law, while bending the heck out of it. I am not against a "primitive" season, but it seems that everywhere it has been tried, some method of bringing "modern" levels of performance to the "primitive" season happens. A true "primitive" season would need to be defined by the hunter group desirous of participating, and lets be honest, there is no real money for enforcement. If the "primitive" season were defined as true blackpowder only, patched round ball only, single shot, loaded from the muzzle, using a replica firearm only, with open metallic sights, I would be OK with that. The various MFG groups would have a field day bending the heck out of that, also. I'm not sure there is enough support to make it work. Some locations do make it work, where there is support, but at a federal level, I doubt it would gain enough interest, except by the "benders", to become reality. | |||
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Quote: That is an excellent point. However, I can't help but feel it is unfortunate that so many are so enamoured of simply getting additional time/opportunity to kill rather than enjoy a unique experience. Quote: Pennsylvania did that better than any other state but the industry (?) with in-line hunters are making "progress" with the legislature and game commission. I think that 2003 was the first year that the "modern" muzzleloaders were permitted, although only during the early hunt. I'd also like to point out that some variation is needed in the different locations. Bag limits due to local populations, methodology affected by local traditions (hunting deer with dogs is an excellent example of this), and weapons limited in order to limit "stray shot" damage, are all valid considerations. However, an example of inanity is the VA regulation prohibiting smoothbores for the ML season. They are allowed during the regular season. Why? What earthly reason can they have for that? I can't tell you, no game manager here can explain it to me. Your point on enforcement is well taken here as I know several shooters who used to hunt with smoothbores (like my Bess) until the rules were carefully read to them. They thought they were in compliance and being the ethical people they are would not continue to violate the regulations/law, just because they could. | |||
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Quote: Hang in there, 8mm. It's a tough go, and seems there is nothing fair about having such a disease. My wife was diagnosed in '83 with chronic progressive MS, and is still going. She fights it every day -- some days it does get her down, but her attitude has kept her going, and she keeps getting back up on her feet. It's a big drag, but does not have to be a death sentence, UNLESS YOU let it be. | |||
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Quote: Alright Wilma Whiner Hobie, how would you like a taste of your own medicine? I don't believe smoothbores should be allowed for any kind of hunting in any season. Their disfunctionality in accuracy helped the British to lose, and us to win, the Revolutionary War. They are just too primitive to be used on deer, elk, hogs, or any other big game animal. I really like that term, "too primitive". Thank God you "purists" don't own the Iowa legislature! Thank God you are so powerless in most other states! Thank God you are becoming fewer and fewer in numbers! Here in Iowa, it is called "Muzzleloading Season". Perhaps that is what it should be called in every state, and just end such stupid debates as this one. If I want to take my Lyman .54 sidelock out to hunt with, I can. If I want to take my Encore 209x50 out to hunt with, I can. One limits me, the other extends my accurate/effective range 100yds. Either way, I don't "whine" because someone is using something else, and I'm not going to give the ML10-II hunter a bunch of $hit because he may have me outgunned!!! I can STILL outhunt most of them! Thank God you "purists" are a dying breed. My POS CVA Hawkins 1-60 twist .50 will stay on the wall, just where it is the most effective, eye candy.  | |||
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Thanks for the thought, DannoBoone. I don't remember being taught or thinking that life was supposed to be fair, and it hasn't let me down yet!!  Best to your wife, OK?Back on topic, I really have little problem with primitive seasons, if the hunter knows the limits of what he is hunting with and hunts accordingly. Many hunters will not do that, and that is the crux of the problems with these seasons. I have used my BP during conventional rifle season successfully, but have also had deer shot out from under my sights by hunters shooting less than primitive loads during the primitive season. If there is to be a primitive season, keep it primitive, that is all I ask. As I noted before, there is little enforcement of this, most of the enforcement is self-enforcement, and that is OK for the individual that does so, it would be nice if everyone did that. A lot don't. | |||
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Quote: If I could find some purists to vote for, I damn sure would. Quote: Just so ya'll know, here in Iowa the "Muzzleloading Season" also includes .357 Hlackhawk revolvers, .44 Mag Contenders, and any other straightwall cartridge handgun of any action type with any sort of sights. Same season, same permit, same tag. Shows how much we know about vocabulary here in Iowa when it comes to "Muzzleloading Season" Brent | |||
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Quote:Quote: | |||
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Inlines were invented over 100 years ago and conicals were used in the civil war. | |||
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Dang, ya know, you're almost right. I stand corrected. Handguns were muzzleloaders in at least the first season they did this and maybe others as well, but not this past year. Live and learn. I'm still lookin' for purists to vote for however. Brent | |||
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It is a shame that people look down upon others methods of taking game. As long as it is fair chase, who cares. I have killed deer w/ old muskets, inlines, bows, pistols, and centerfires; every time it was a challenge and I cant say that any are that hard to get game w/. When I hunt w/ a bow or a musket I hunt in thick places where shots are close. It is easy to shoot a deer w/ a bow if he is right ubder your tree. Just as it is easy to kill one w/ a musket at 50 yards. The centerfires go to the long range areas. Each weapon has its place but, some are much more effective. If you call yourself a hunter, you owe it to the game you persue to make the kill as quick and painless as possible. W/ bows and old muskets you have not done that. You cant look down on a man that shot a deer w/ an inline at 100 yards, he killed quickly and effectively. Now you can look down upon a man that attempted to kill a deer at 100 yards w/ a small patched round ball and he just wounded the animal for a slow, crucial death. Now, tell me that you look down upon a inline hunter. You shoot your close shots and I will take my Savage ML10 II and shoot them at 250 all day long. I have no problem w/ the way you hunt, you shouldn't have a problem w/ mine. Reloader | |||
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Quote: I got this new muzzleloader that I mounted on my camera-equipped RC plane and I control it with a joy stick from my computer at home while I hunt all over your land. Surely, you don't have any problem with that do you? Brent | |||
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Jeeez, is this still going on? Quote: That is just stupid! You are now using idiotic arguments to prove stupid points. | |||
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Quote: It's really difficult for me to not come right out and call you a liar. Only ML handguns were EVER allowed in Iowa. The .357's and .44's were only EVER allowed during the shotgun seasons. NEVER were CF handguns allowed as, or considered muzzleloaders. Even the liberal dammocrats in the legislature were and are smarter than that. They are at least intelligent enough to get dummies like you to vote for them. | |||
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Reloader - How do you like your M10-II? My Encore with a custom barrel is a pretty darned good shooter, but in no cross-wind or no wind conditions, it can take a few seconds after the shot to see the condition of the deer. It certainly would be nice to see the immediate reaction, and the M10 would be just the ticket for that!!! I'm eyeballing the stainless M10 with the laminated stock and Accu trigger. Randy Wakeman has a link to getting a pillar bedding job, but it's a couple hundred more. If I do end up getting one, it should be the last front stuffer I'll ever need. What do you think? Brent - It would be much more feasible for you to send the R/C plane over my property. After all, I'm a LOT closer than Reloader, and you wouldn't be crossing state lines, therefore fewer laws would be broken, and your jail time would be less. | |||
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ML seasons are allowed calculating for the reduced harvest due to single shot & reduced range. Also allowing them in shotgun areas is based on their reduced performance compared to centerfire rifle. I've nothing against magnum ML but if their development continues unchecked game laws will be changed sooner or later because of it. | |||
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Guys, I heard all the discussions on long bow versus compound, fingers versus release but all the advances in archery have not increased the kill distance more then a few yards. Now we have muzzle loaders that shoot 200 yds. I don't care who uses them because I will kill as many or more deer with traditional and be happy. I hunt deer not just go out to shoot deer. Here is what I see happening; I come from Ohio where high powers were not legal for deer but you could use a muzzle loader instead of a shotgun because the range was limited and safer then high powers. More of the country will move to shotguns as population grows, I forsee the states outlawing long range muzzle loaders in shotgun areas. This might rub the wrong way and they will just ban all muzzle loaders period from these places. It is something to think about as making these things shoot farther might eventually be the downfall of our whole sport. In fact the county I live in might move to shotguns very soon. I want to stay with my patch and ball and revolvers and worry they will outlaw them also. I don't care what a man wants to hunt with or how far he thinks he has to shoot. I have no problem getting 10 to 50 yds from deer because I hunt them. It takes very little to kill a deer but we have guys here that just have to use 7mm and 300 magnums on those 50 yd shots. Guess what, they lose a lot of deer and when they do get one, it is hamburger. I found 2 deer last season that the "hunter" left lay because they were blown up too bad. Both were right under tree stands so I know they just didn't want to mess with them. I see no reason anyone needs to shoot at a deer from 200 yds with a front stuffer when all he has to do is learn to hunt first, shoot last. Of course most guys with inlines shoot less then 50 yds anyway. Most guys want the ability for the gun to fire when wet or plugged a little. If a flint doesn't flash or a cap goes POP you are supposed to shrug your shoulders and wish the deer well. Part of the game, but some fellas can't stand defeat. Like I said, if you have an inline and like them, go ahead and use them. I will never run anyone down for this. But maybe you should stop and think of what it might do in the long run to our hunting areas when houses get too close together and the open land shrinks. | |||
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Quote: A joke-- if you are using pellets, they go in before the sabot anyway, all out of the same speed loader. There is no time savings. A whitetail can cover a lot of ground in the time it takes for this; there is little substitute for a good "first shot." | |||
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Reloader I've seen ML II data for the 250 SST to 2800 fps +.....wow that's up in 375 H&H territory. Even saw one load where they put a 45 cal sabot in a 50 and shoot RedHots to 3000+!! | |||
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