Well, I only get to hunt to -25 give or take and the Pdex reliability is long gone before it makes it to even 15 never mind -15.

Stick with your Pdex. It still sucks.

How is the reliability gone in cold weather. I've never had a misfire or hangfire with a 209 despite firing thousands of rounds in extremely cold temperatures. The only thing I've seen when running it over the chrony in frigid temperatures is a slight increase in velocity. I have no idea what you mean when you say the reliability is gone.

I agree that bp is a better choice with guns using caps but have no idea what you mean about reliability in cold weather with a 209 in-line. It goes bang every time with consistent velocities...how can it be any more reliable. Please share your experiences of unreliable Pyrodex in a 209 in-line. You are quite literally be the first person I've ever heard complain about cold weather issues in 209 in-lines.

And as far as efficiency goes, I can get the same velocity with 100 grains of Pyro as I can with 150 grains of Goex. Swiss is slightly better but still not close to the velocity per grain of Pyrodex.

these "old" firearms were designed to be used with black powder and in my opinion that is the best choice of propellant

Swiss Black Powder, then KIK, then Goex. Those are my top three choices for "Best" powder.

I personally shoot 2F and 3F KIK based on price. Swiss is a more powerful powder but at substanial premium in price.

GOEX and KIK are close to the same in power, price is the main difference.

Black Powder is the best powder for Traditional guns.

For my Encore, I tried some clean burning powders and was disapointed. I found my best accuracy with Pyrodex.

This thread interests me for a couple of reasons. I have used Pyrodex for many years as Black powder has become harder to find. I used Goex 3x in the beginning and really liked it, accuracy was great and it was very reliable. Pyrodex gives more shots per pound but definitly is harder to clean out of your rifle. I have arthritus in both shoulders so pushing and pulling a cleaning rod cause me some real pain. It looks like loose 777 will be my next powder test.

rick, www.powderinc.com will ship to your door, quantities as small as 5# and as large as 25# You might give them a try.

Thanks for the link. I have to say I like black powder way better than pyrodex though the latter has served me well.

Most of the guns I burn black powder in were built before any of the substitutes.

I have tried pyrodex and some of the other flavors of black-surrogate.

I prefer Goex FFg
I fiddle with other brands of 'real' blackpowder from time to time, I have a couple of cans of off-brand real black powder I'll be trying out some time soon.

I just don't like the fake stuff.
I don't have any issues with cleanup of real blackpowder, it ignites easily, and my double rifles shoot to regulation very consistently with Goex FFg

--Tinker

What we ae saying here is what Reloader said several posts back. The best powder for your rifle is what works in YOUR RIFLE. It is apparent that some powders work better in some rifles than others. You really have to determine what your rifle likes and what your hunting or shooting conditions are to determine the "best powder". My Omega likes Pyrodex and hates Tripple Seven, loves Black Mag'3. My Whites shoot just about anything. My KRB is too new to determine. My T/C Hawken likes black and Pyrodex. Hopefully my CVA Optima Elite will shoot Blackhorn 209 for hunting.

Brent-

What powder do you run in your Lang 16b double rifle?
I run Goex FFg in both of my 16b double rifles.
What is the regulation load?
What's in your load column?
How does that rifle shoot?


--Tinker

Swiss 1.5 fg or Goex 2fg Exp. But mostly the former. It will take 80 grs at most for regulation using a patched roundball. It does a little bit better though with 75 grs or so (this by weight). It does not like bullets though it has a twist of 54".

I have tried wads but no advantage there.

It shoots into about 2.5-3" at 50 yds Maybe a little better. The left barrel is just titch lower than the right.

Brent

I've got 2 muzzle loaders. Both cap locks. One a sproterized carbine with modern sights and a chrome lined barrel, .54 cal. My other is a lyman Great Plains Rifle I built from a kit 30 years ago, and still hunt with, .50 cal. I have been using Pyrodex for the last few years and am looking for a good synthetic. Here in Oregon inline ml's are not legal during ml season. I've been using double F. I use 100 grains in my .50 and 110 grains in my .54.

What do you guys suggest in my case?

I could not begin to suggest a synthetic powder. But why do you want one? The real thing still works better than any of the others.

Brent

Brent-

I fully agree with you on Real vs Fake blackpowder.

Also, thanks for the information on your Lang.

Couple more questions for you on that rifle.
What does it weigh and what's the barrel length?
What's your roundball weight/size and velocity at regulation?


--Tinker

Guys, I have to wonder at the "real thing outdoes the synthetics"... How can something that is 15% faster, groups as well as it does, is pretty forgiving as far as corrosiveness goes, and is a whale of a lot easier to clean, be less than what the doctor ordered? For my money, unless I have ample opportunity to clean my rifle as soon as it is fired, I am staying away from black. It is just entirely too corrosive. Anyone who took high school chemistry remembers that when sulfur burns it becomes SO2, sulfur dioxide... And SO2 + H2O gives H2SO4 + 02... Sulfuric Acid.

Doubless-

On Black vs Substitute.
There are a few things that keep blackpowder as my only choice for blackpowder guns and rifles.

Pressure and consistency of pressure is the first and foremost issue for me.
Independent pressure barrel tests of numerous brands of black powder and some of the substitutes (always something new there) have shown to me that blackpowder burns with much more consistent pressures than the substitutes.
Some of the substitutes have shown relatively frequent, high pressure spike 'excursions' out of the normal operating range.

Most of the guns I use blackpowder in are exceptionally high condition, similarly high quality, 150+ year old doubles, some of them double rifles. With the double rifles, consistent ignition and pressure are very very important components of a properly regulating load.
Also, I'm just not interested in running powder that's shown to have tendency to give pressure spikes in my cool old double guns and rifles.


Ignition is another issue.
Some of my guns and rifles are flintlocks.
I don't know of a substitute that ignites nearly as easily as blackpowder, not nearly as easily as FFFFg pan primer powder.
My flintlocks run very well on blackpowder, ignition is very fast, and my flintlocks light up consistently in any position, even upside down.


Corrosion...
I'm just not concerned here. I clean all my guns, BP or smokeless, after I shoot them.
Blackpowder cleans up very well with water, and none of my blackpowder guns are pitted from my use and care.
Pyrodex for some time had been 'the' substitute.
The residue from pyrodex will help your guns rust to death too if not cleaned up, and my experience with it is that cleaning it up takes as much time as cleaning blackpowder residue.
On shot to shot barrel cleaning or barrel prep, I haven't found any need to address this issue when my loads are prepared properly. The use of proper patching, wadding, and cards and lubrication where necessary, depending on whether it's a muzzleloader or cartridge gun has always taken care of the issue fouling.
My guns, loaded as I load them, with the lubrication(s) that I use and have used, foul soft. I've taken my double rifles into the field, shot them in the morning, carried them all day, inspected the bores at night, and took them out shooting the next day... without the need to clean, without ever rusting or pitting my bores.

Blackpowder just works very well for me, and it's what the guns I shoot it in were made for.
I don't see the cleanup as an issue, and my guns aren't showing any ill effects from using it.
I might actually be gifted with exceptional luck, but I doubt it. I know scores of other men who run real blackpowder with great success in modern guns and high grade antique doubles like the ones I shoot. I think we're on to something.

I don't have any issues with anyone else using any other substitute powders. I'm not 'against' the other powders either. I just don't recommend them and I don't think they're the best -- especially for my guns or guns like them.

I hope that helps clarify my position on this matter.



--Tinker

I guess my issue is corrosiveness. I also clean all my guns after shooting. Having said that, when I'm out hunting here in the PNW, usually back in the wilderness for a week at a crack, I encounter all kinds of weather, rain snow sleet whatever. It is difficult to clean the guns everyday. If a charge is left in the gun overnight it gets damp and I have to run a cap through it, then another to get ignition.

I just feel that the synthetics are better for my use. i could be wrong. Clean up is never really difficult.

I did screw up recently I went out shooting my kit gun I thought I cleaned it rel well and used bore butter on the barrel i let it in the case in my garrage for a frew weeks. when I went ot checlk it out there was rustr in the barrel. BLASTPHAMY!!!! I have never done that before. I have never left a gun in my garage before. Needless to say I cleaned it up ral good lubed it real well and slipped it in a gun sock for storage. Oh well, it sucks to do dumb things.



I use maxiballs, and buffalo bullets.

My experience with pyrodex is that it is harder to clean up than black powder. I have kept my Black powder firearms loaded with both black and pyrodex for many weeks with not a hint of corrosion. The benefit of pyrodex is only one, more shots per pound. I have never had any problem getting either pyrodex or black powder to go off either. Then again I put a piece of saran wrap under the cap and it is unlikely that moisture will get by either a greased patch or well lubed minie ball.

Jim,
Pyrodex and bore butter are two of the most awful things ever made for muzzleloading and rust prevention. They are, however, better than exactly one other option - that being nothing.

BP is not corrosive at all. The fouling will absorb moisture, so it must be cleaned after firing but the powder is not.

Lots of better things for rust prevention than bore butter. Just about anything is better and I know of no serious shooter that uses it any more.

Brent

Brent-

I've actually had good success with bore butter, never had a gun rust while using it. It worked great as a cartridge wad lube for my 16b double rifles.
I've been fiddling with other homebrewed grease/lube recipes, but from time to time still use bore butter.

Explain the problem with it please.
Also, I'm very much interested in those other numbers from your Lang
-bbl length
-weight
-roundball dia/weight
-regulation velocity

Thanks muchly for your input!



--Tinker

I get rust with bore butter. that's the problem. I don't if I use a decent oil. Anything from Breakfree to NAPA ATF is better.

I agree that bore butter on patches can be good - cloth patches.

The Lang. Well, let's see
It is .635" on the lands. I don't recall the groove diameter. Roundball weight is about 375 I think. Barrels are about 28 to the breech plug face - maybe a quarter inch less. and it weighs 7 lb 14 oz.

Never ran it over the chrony.

Thanks for the further clarification Brent.

Where do you live?
Is it humid there?
Where I live and hunt, I don't see excessive humidity. This might be why I don't see issues with rust in my guns...

I've been plagued on and off with chrono issues.
I have yet to get good velocity data from either of my bore rifles.
Hopefully some day soon, weather and my schedule and my chrono will all get together to create 'that day I find out' M/V of my regulation loads.


--Tinker