Did any of you read the April issue of Peterson's HUNTING? Brice Townsley has an article in there about the "best" propellant in muzzleloading rifles. He came to this conclusion by using a .50 Cal Rolling Block from Knight (no other gun was used). He says that the "BEST" is Pyrodex. How say you?

I have tried all the propellants out there and triple7 is what has worked for me the best over all.

Saying that, I am now a smokeless guy and SR 4759 is my powder of choice in my Savage.

Pyrodex is fading away. It's rough on the bore, as corrosive as black powder. Shoots dirtier than black powder and cakes in the barrel pocket like wet cigarette ashes. Some shooters still swear by it, but not many. The article is probably an attempt at boosting sales.

Of all of the synthetics, Triple 7, Goex Clear Shot( soon to be reintroduced with a new name), and American Spirit are the best.

Jim Shokey's Gold is nothing but the old and failed "Clean Shot" with a new name. A marketing ploy to revive it.

My statement is based on having worked at the Muzzleloading Emporium for about 3 years. In business for 35 years, the owner started shooting BP competition in 1955. Was a world class competitor and won the Canadian National's Pistol competition.

http://www.thegunworks.com/

I have used Black Mag'3 with great results but the company has had a bad time trying to get distribution and is presently not available anywhere that I can find. The new Blackhorn 209 sounds like the best stuff yet but is still not available and apparently will be the most expensive propellant on the market by a long way. I think it is being listed at over $30 a pound (in fact I think it is $30 for something like 14 ounces or less).

I've yet to find anything as accurate out of my muzzleloaders than good old Pyrodex and I've yet to find a 150 grain load that will produce more velocity than three Pyrodex pellets.I haven't had much luck accuracy wise with T7.

DB, this is probably going to shock hell out of you, but I couldn't agree more. I'm an NMLRA instructor and every class seems shocked when I tell them that Pyrodex is more corrosive than regular black powder. I prefer the T7, but that's simply because I'm lazy and like the pellets.

I'm mostly a smokeless Ml'er so I prefer N120 over any of the others in my Savage.
But when I'm forced shoot the T/C I prefer T7 to anything else in the BP sub category.

Pyrodex fading away? That's news to me.
Hodgden makes the best powder as far as I'm concerned. I shoot pyrodex, 777 and 777 mag. All good.

..........wapiti7

quote:

Originally posted by MLKeith:
I have used Black Mag'3 with great results but the company has had a bad time trying to get distribution and is presently not available anywhere that I can find. The new Blackhorn 209 sounds like the best stuff yet but is still not available and apparently will be the most expensive propellant on the market by a long way. I think it is being listed at over $30 a
pound (in fact I think it is $30 for something like 14 ounces or less).

Latest information is $30 for 10 ounces. Ouch!!!

You are corect on the price and the 10oz. This is destined for failure from the start.

quote:

I've yet to find anything as accurate out of my muzzleloaders than good old Pyrodex and I've yet to find a 150 grain load that will produce more velocity than three Pyrodex pellets.I haven't had much luck accuracy wise with T7.

I would like to know why you need 150gr charge in a muzzle loader? The traditional BP charge is 70gr of FF or FFF. It's has killed everything in North America. With anything much over 70gr it's just blowing powder out of the barrel unburned. It simply will not burn fast enough.

The recoil is greatly increased because your pushing added weight out, and in most instances it will actually slow the bullet down. For example, have you ever been swimming and slapped the water with an open hand? What happened? Your hand experienced more resistance from the surface tension of the water, resulting in your hand slowing down. If you do the same thing slowly your hand enters the water with very little resistance. Physics are constant, they never change in relation to the circumstances. When a big fat flat nosed bullet(your open hand)is going fast it slows down faster on impact. If it's moving slower it penetrates with less resistance.

You will get better penetration and better accuracy with a lighter charge. If you don't believe me that's fine. Just telling you the way it is. Unburnt powder serves no purpose.

Muzzle Loaders aren't intended to kill with velocity. They are not a modern smokeless powder center fire rifles firing a high velocity jacketed spitzer bullet. And were not intended to be. They kill with a big ball or bullet and a well placed shot.

You might try spreading an old sheet out on the ground and shoot over it. Then go out and look at the amount of unburnt powder there is.

Oldtimers used to shoot over snow to determine their optimum load. When they were miles from the nearest source of powder they didn't want to waste it.

But for issues of availability I'm completely satisfied with Goex 3F.

DB, if you are shooting an old style caplock or flintlock...some of what you say is true. I get great pleasure from working loasd up with my muzzleloader and seeing just how far I can ethically shoot. In that case, velocity is most definitely your friend and as I'm shooting modern bonded bullets, the same as most guys shoot from high power rifles, I'm pretty sure they are up to the task. I'll guarantee you that penetration increasse with velocity on a bonded/jacketed bullet. So no, I don't believe you.

I respect those that like to carry on the tadition of the old-style muzzleloaders so please respect my opinion to get everything I can out of my modern one. Oh ya, and btw, no need to shoot your muzzleloader over snow anymore to see if it's burning powder, there this fancy electronic gizmo called a chronograph that actually tells you if your velocity increases with more powder and as I said, I've yet to find a load that gives me more velocity than three good old Pyrodex pellets. I can tell you for certainty that 150 grains produces considerably more velocity than 100 grains or even 149 grains for that matter.

Never mind....

There's only one degree of DEAD. And how it got there doesn't matter...

Sheephunterab,
Good stuff. I love shooting my inline. I was a long distance rifle shooter before, so I like to shoot my muzzleloader way out there! Out here in NM, you have a lot of opportunity to do that!

Yes we do in Alberta as well. I do most of my muzzleloader hunting in general rifle season here as we don't have many muzzleloader specific seasons. I've got most of my in-lines dialed in for 200 yards and have one 300 yard project I'm working on.

Blackhorn 209 looks very promising. The is an article on the hp muzzleloading site. Cleaner than 777, less moisture retention and more velocity with equal charge.

It does, but your average muzzleloading hunter wont fork out that much $$. You'll drop $100 on powder with one morning on the bench!

There is nothing like the real thing. Give me real black powder and use the rest for fertilizer. I have used 777, and Pyrodex, and they are a poor substitute for Goex 3f in my Lyman Trade rifle.

777 pellets cost $26 for how many shots? 777 starts sucking moisture instantly when opened. I have seen articles where guys are shooting all day w/o a patch run down the bore. No crud ring, truly non corrosive higher velocity, $37.50 is pricy, but it stores well unlike 777 so you may get two to three times the shelf life. I know some people keep 777 for a couple years, but it absorbs alot of moisture and is not totally reliable for long term storage.

A little more research the cost per shot of 100 gr of buckhorn is cheaper than 777 pellets, and a little more than 777 loose. You can get around 60 shots out of a ten oz bottle of the buckhorn.

Long ago I decided to go with 80 gr of goex 3f.I have used this charge for years,several different guns and many different projectiles.From patched round balls ,to saboted pistol bullets to lead conicals,works well,at least here in MN where the shots are normally short.Last year I took mine at less than 50 yds with a hornandy 325 xtp sabot.Last time I bought powder,I paid $12 a lb.

My kid uses an old side hammer muzzie. He tried sabots, used Pyrodex, Shockey's gold, even some pistol powder recommended to him by an older fellow with a boatload of muzzies. The more he learns, the farther back in time he ends up. He is having a blast with round balls, prelubed patches and black powder. And spending less.

Sabots do not shoot well out of most caplocks because they require a faster twist to the rifling like is found in in-lines.

I couldn't have disagreed more with the article. Just because he recieved the best accuracy in his rifle, doesn't mean it will be the best for the rest of us in our rifles.

The best I've found in my rifles is 777 pellets or loose 777. It gives good velocity and great accuracy without the smelly, dirty, corrosive mess of Black or Pyro. I'll probably never use pyro again. I've got a pound collecting dust year after year and It will probably ne given away at some point. Too many revolutions in the muzzleloading world in the last decade to go backwards.

Good Luck

Reloader

quote:

Of all of the synthetics, Triple 7, Goex Clear Shot( soon to be reintroduced with a new name), and American Spirit are the best.

Goex Clear Shot reintroduced? That stuff is crap.

American Spirit - what IS that?

As of right now I would say Triple 7 for best overall performance, ease of cleanup, and relatively low corrosion rate (usually). But Pyrodex P is an excellent powder - you just have to clean the heck out of things after using it.

And Swiss FFFg is tough to beat.

Blackhorn 209 will be the lazy man's salvation, I guess.

I too prefer T7 loose powder. though i get good accuracy from pyrodex, i get the same from T7 with easier clean up and less smell. this is out of a modern T/C omega and 250gr shockwave bullets. i like to use 110-120 gr of loose powder, i like a little extra velocity for the area i hunt, where longer shots are the norm.

+1 for the loose Triple 7. Most consistent shot to shot accuracy in my CVA mag bolt inline.

I bought a lot of Pyrodex RS on clearance after the season was over. I also got a deal on 777 and it is all I have burned in my Encore. My friend thought I had cut the cheese after I came home in his truck I said no it was my Lyman Great Plains rifle and the Pyrodex RS that stunk like rotten eggs.

I have tried Black Powder 3f and 4f in the past I did not have the knowledge that I do now so I didn’t have much luck with the loading process. It is not readily available here in fact I have no idea where I could buy Real Black Powder none of the sporting good stores have it in stock.

For the most part I like the 777 loose powder the best.

quote:

Originally posted by george roof:
Did any of you read the April issue of Peterson's HUNTING? Brice Townsley has an article in there about the "best" propellant in muzzleloading rifles. He came to this conclusion by using a .50 Cal Rolling Block from Knight (no other gun was used). He says that the "BEST" is Pyrodex. How say you?

I have been using 85grs Goex 2f and 80grs Pyrodex RS pushing 240grs XTP's since 1990 with no need to change....

Pyrodex is far from the best - so who pays the guy?

Pydodex is unstable and degrades with time,
Pyrodex sucks when it's cold
Pyrodex is hideously corrosive after firing and damn hard to clean
Pyrodex is slow

a good quality black - real black - powder has none of these problems.

For most purposes. Goex Exp 2fg or Swiss 1.5fg are generally extremely good choices.

Brent

PS no one pays me.

How can you say Pyrodex is slow.....show me a reccommended load that produces more velocity than three Pyrodex pellets. I've yet to run one across my chrony. How does it degrade? I've chrony's 5 year old Pyro with no loss of velocity. How does it suck when it's cold....it goes bang?

Are you saying that real blackpowder is less corrosive than Pyrodex???

grain for grain, Pdex is slower than any black powder, it sucks humidity like nobody's business and that makes it slower yet. It degrades on the shelf when sits there and goes slower yet. It does not always go bang when it is cold and it takes a hotter (and generally less accurate) priming system to make it go bang if it does at all.

Have you tried black?

Brent

Brent: Have you hunted with black powder in Kansas and if so do you know where I can buy some?

Four Flags in Wichita use to sell it but they went out of business a few years ago, and none of the Gun shops I now have to deal with carry any real black powder only substitutes. I would like to try some in my Lyman Great Planes Rifle 54cal and my TC Encore 50.

Swede, I don't hunt KS anymore unfortunately. I can help you buy it though. You can have it delivered to your door. 25# lots are easiest and most economical, but these guys will sell smaller quantities.
http://www.powderinc.com/

Note that you can mix and match granulations and brands to give a few a try.

Brent

quote:

grain for grain, Pdex is slower than any black powder, it sucks humidity like nobody's business and that makes it slower yet. It degrades on the shelf when sits there and goes slower yet. It does not always go bang when it is cold and it takes a hotter (and generally less accurate) priming system to make it go bang if it does at all.

Have you tried black?

Brent

For over 20 years I've tried black and it still has its place in caplocks and flintlocks but it comes no where close to matching the performance of Pyro pellets in an in-line. Grain for grain....nothing is faster than a Pyro pellet....and as Bryce's testing was done with an inline and the article was about inlines, I think he's right on the money.....do you own a chrony?

Yes, I do - two in fact.

Then you should know that Pyro pellets are indeed the king of speed!

I'll agree that bp burns easier than Pyro and in rifles utilizing #11 or musket caps it is often a better choice but the test gun in Bryce's article was an in-line with 209s.

I have no idea where you got that Pyro performs poorly in cold weather. Caps perform poorly in cold weather and as Pyro is harder to ignite it may cause problems with non 209 guns but with 209 ignition there are absolutely no issues and speed increases as the weather gets colder if anything. And I have no idea where you got the idea that Pyro degrades as it does not. Like bp it is hydroscopic but if stored properly it will produce the same velocities in 10 years as it does today.

I hunt in subzero cold. And Pyrodex doesn't.

If Pyrodex doesn't degrade with time, then why in the world does it shoot slower from one year to the next? With powder from the same can, bullets from the same box, and down the same barrel.

If you think BP is hydroscopic, you are simply wrong. Been there, done the tests. Here is one example
http://personal.adiis.net/tenx/powder_test.html

If you like Pdex, that's fine, but frankly, it sucks for performance, for dependability, for accuracy, and just about anything else. Still, it is your gun so have at it.

Brent

LMAO....I live in sub zero my friend so take my word for it that Pyro works just fine...I've killed loads of critters with it when the mercury was dipping to -40. In fact, at least three months of my season are are in temperatures well below zero.

As I've said, I've run 5 year old Pyro through the chrony and no change in velocity....know countless other shooters that will say the same thing.

I'm not anti bp but for me Pyro goes bang everytime in the cold, doesn't degrade and produces sub MOA groups out of 6 of my in-lines.