Greets fm CO
I would like to hear about your experiences with various Black Powder subs. I have used only Black powder before. I currently have a bottle of Triple Seven but am interested in all. Thanks Ray

I used them all and T-7 3/F is the best ! Go back a few pages and read about Jim Shockeys Garbage American Powder ! I use only 3/F in all my muzzleloaders & cartridge guns !

I have tried them all also. I will only use triple 7 loose powder in my muzzleloader's.
I got my best accuracy with triple 7.

Triple 7 loose powder has worked great for me. Excellent accuracy, higher velocities than other subs and easy to clean. If using sabots be sure to spit patch between shots. I have the 25ACP breech plug, but I still get a little crud ring just ahead of the plug. Since this is where the next powder charge would sit and the sabot would be above it, you wouldn't have to worry about it in a hunting follow-up shot scenario. I use ffg but am going to try fffg next. Good luck.

I have tried both Triple 7 and Pyrodex. I found accuracy and velocity to be equal in my TC Encore Katadin. I find the T & to be a little cleaner.

With Pyrodex, compress the load a little but with 777, just seat to the powder without any compression.

I use the cleanest burning BP sub on the market period

My Black powder Sub is IMR Sr4759

Hardly fouls the bore and you only have to clean about every 30-50 rounds. Heck, you could just clean once a year if you wanted .

WARNING!!!!!! The above load info should only be attempted in a Savage ML10 Smokeless MLer and SHOULD NOT be used in any other MLer on the Market.

Good Luck

Reloader

quote:

Originally posted by Reloader:
I use the cleanest burning BP sub on the market period

My Black powder Sub is IMR Sr4759

Hardly fouls the bore and you only have to clean about every 30-50 rounds. Heck, you could just clean once a year if you wanted .

WARNING!!!!!! The above load info should only be attempted in a Savage ML10 Smokeless MLer and SHOULD NOT be used in any other MLer on the Market.

Good Luck

Reloader

Me2!

I've used 777, pyrodex, American pioneer, etc. 777 has worked the best out of everything i've tried. I got the least fouling, and easiest cleanup with it as opposed to the others. i use the pelletized form in my Omega with no problems. If you're shooting an inline, the pellet will work fine. If it's a caplock, use the loose powder.

gd

Black Mag'3 is without a doubt the only high performance substitute that I will use. Even Randy found the latest BM3 to be superior to any of the others. As to how to get it read below:
BM3 is presently only sold factory direct. You can call (407) 682-4742 and if you order 12 pounds the price with shipping and hazmat fee is just about $25 per pound.

If you want to use blackpowder, why use a substitute? I never understood this.

If you must use a substitute, generic smokeless, pick-your-number, all seem to work well.

Seems like a solution to a problem that just doesn't exist. But to each his own I guess.

Brent

$25 a pound???? Holy smokes, I could not shoot at all at those prices. I get Swiss BP for $15 and Goex for $10 and some others for a lot less.
I get smokeless for way less then that and get a lot more shots out of a can.

quote:

$25 a pound???? Holy smokes,

I want to try the Black Mag, but the HazMat fee is enough to stop me. I have never had an issue with Pyrodex Pellets and I don't have to worry about a crud ring, or the primers I use.

Loose 777 powder works great in my .45 caliber CVA bolt inline. I use Rem 57* primers. Cabela's 180gr extended range sabots with QT polymer tips. 2650fps. Very consistant velocity readings on the chrono and accurate.

Onefunzr2 And what is the amount of Trip 7 3F you use to get such velocities in your 45 CVA ?

125 grains by volume.

I thank You Funzer2

Realoader do they recommend any other powders for the savage I in the process of buying one.

What bullets and sabots to you recommend for one.

I would be belive smokeless powders were the first black powder Subs.

Isn't true that all black powder cartridges can use smokeless instead of black powder.

I see no place in the law that say's one has to use a black powder SUB.

That one has to load volume to volume.

I would say if your rifle can use both when you use smokeless in stead of black you are using a black powder Sub.

It would make a interisting court case. I am sure one could confuse a jury rather quickly when you brought up all the differant powders.

Then throw in something like bulk smokeless that was a direct SUB for black.

Iam sure a found a can of it at some gun show at some time.

Pdogshooter, some states like mine list specific bp substitutes that are allowable. I imagine other states may differ.

Why would you want to deliberately try to circumvent the rules anyway?

Brent

When the rules are unclear and not pecise.

And there are better ways of getting the job done I prefer to go the better way.

quote:

Originally posted by p dog shooter:
I would say if your rifle can use both when you use smokeless in stead of black you are using a black powder Sub.

It would make a interisting court case. I am sure one could confuse a jury rather quickly when you brought up all the differant powders.

Yep, a fella might confuse a jury so much the DNR would adopt the old Pennsylvania definition: roundball flintlock with open sights using only real blackpowder. Wouldn't that be grand?

quote:

Yep, a fella might confuse a jury so much the DNR would adopt the old Pennsylvania definition: roundball flintlock with open sights using only real blackpowder. Wouldn't that be grand?

Actually the specifics were:

A single patched round ball.
Only flintlock ignition.
Only buckhorn or open 'v' sights. (no ghost ring or aperture)

No stipulation on using only real blackpowder. However, I don't think you can light off a frizzen pan of SUB with the sparks from a flint.

quote:

Originally posted by MLKeith:
Black Mag'3 is without a doubt the only high performance substitute that I will use. Even Randy found the latest BM3 to be superior to any of the others.

Even Randy?

Yes, the current BM3 is fabulous product.

Consistent, clean, low corrosivity, no swabbing between shots, easy ignition, etc., etc. It is the best smokey ML propellant I've ever used.

quote:

Originally posted by onefunzr2:

quote:

Yep, a fella might confuse a jury so much the DNR would adopt the old Pennsylvania definition: roundball flintlock with open sights using only real blackpowder

Actually the specifics were:

A single patched round ball.
Only flintlock ignition.
Only buckhorn or open 'v' sights. (no ghost ring or aperture)

No stipulation on using only real blackpowder. However, I don't think you can light off a frizzen pan of SUB with the sparks from a flint.

Thankyou for the clarification, and I imagine the rule predated the subs as well. So, did folks in PA ever bring home any venison with such crude implements?

Or maybe the DNR would realize that it is stuip to try and regulate the type of powder one uses when there are so many types that well work.

Or they could go like MO. did and allow any single shot rifle 45 cal or larger. I hear single shot 45-70's are hot sellers down there.

Originally the Pennsylvania rules were as follows
Flintlock only
patched round ball OR CONICAL
Open sights OR PEEP/SIGHTS
I used a TC Hawken, shooting a 370 grain maxi-ball/90 grains FFFg to kill several deer. The rifle was equiped with a TC tang sight and globe front with interchangeable blades. It will shoot 2" groups all day at 100 yards. The buckskinners whined until the Game Commision outlawed the peep sights and the conical bullets. Today, you can shoot a conical/sabot in the late season, but scopes or peep sights are not still not legal. During the early October doe season, anything goes, including my Savage. Stoney

With TS the first shot from a clean, dry barrel has always been right in the group (no errant fouling shot). Does BM3 also have this benefit?

quote:

Realoader do they recommend any other powders for the savage I in the process of buying one.

What bullets and sabots to you recommend for one.

Yes, they recommend several others in the owners manual.

I would personally only advise someone that just bought one to use VVn110, IMR SR4759, or AA5744. The 110 will give you the best velocity of the three w/ the best pressure curve as well. I would suggest V110 if available as a 1st choice and Imr4759 as a second.

When shooting 250s I'd start w/ 41-42g of 4759 and work up to 43g. Start w/ 40g of 110 and work up to 42-43g.

Bullets:

Hard to beat Hornady 250 grn SST w/ supplied sabots for accuracy, flat trajectory, and performance on whitetails. The tip of the ram rod must be modified to load the 250 SSTs.(PM me for info on that) or you could buy one of the add-on ramrod adaptor to lod pointy bullets. I prefer to just modify the tip myself.

If you want to save a buck and don't intend to shoot past 125-150 you may want to look into the HDY .452 250 grn XTPs, You can buy them at reloading sources and then just buy high pressure sabots from MMP.

The win 209 primers work well in the ML10 as well.

Remember to wrap teflon tape around the threads of the Breech Plug and the threads & head of the vent liner. Once you tighten the vent liner you can cut off the excess tape w/ a razor.(make sure you have no tape covering the ends of the vent liner)

Good Luck

Reloader

quote:

So, did folks in PA ever bring home any venison with such crude implements?

Nope. They all died out and the state was re-populated by folks from New York and New Jersey.

p dog shooter, you know you sound like the type of guy who makes "natural selection" proud. Many states expressly prohibit the use of smokeless powder during any special muzzleloader seasons. Savage was playing with it's ass when it designed that gun. Their sales were tanking and they needed an "edge". What they have yet to come to terms with, however, is the guys like you who think, "well, if it takes "x" amount of grains to shoot good, maybe I should add a couple more to make it shoot better." Those are the ones we find in the obituaries. If you want to play with muzzleloaders, stick with black powder or the substitutes. Why don't you write Savage and ask them how many reports of guns blowing up they have on their books. Course, it's ALWAYS the shooter's fault for being stupid and stupid should hurt. By the same token, "aiding and abetting" should hurt too.

quote:

Originally posted by johnu:
With TS the first shot from a clean, dry barrel has always been right in the group (no errant fouling shot). Does BM3 also have this benefit?

Depends on the rifle but my Omega seems to land the first out of a clean barrel less than an inch off from the following "fouled barrel" shots at the 80 yard mark. There is a little deviation but not much.

quote:

Originally posted by RandyWakeman:

quote:

Originally posted by MLKeith:
Black Mag'3 is without a doubt the only high performance substitute that I will use. Even Randy found the latest BM3 to be superior to any of the others.

Even Randy?

Yes, the current BM3 is fabulous product.

Consistent, clean, low corrosivity, no swabbing between shots, easy ignition, etc., etc. It is the best smokey ML propellant I've ever used.

Thanks for not making me a liar. I wish the stuff was cheaper and easier to get but it is the only powder that will shoot that clean in my Stainless Omega.

George roof many states do not.

Personaly I think savage is very forward thinking.

There is no reason not to make a modren muzzle loader to take smokeless powder.
Unless your worried about the BATF,making a infearior product, or stuip people doing stuip things. Then I guess one should out law all reloading ect.

Reloading them safely is no differant then reloading any cartridge safely.

Do you over load?

If your too stuip to understand the differant between blk powder, smokeless powder and the diffrant burn rates of smokeless powder. You should keep on buying factory ammo where you can have others do your thinking for you.

quote:

Why don't you write Savage and ask them how many reports of guns blowing up they have on their books. Course, it's ALWAYS the shooter's fault for being stupid and stupid should hurt. By the same token, "aiding and abetting" should hurt too.

George, You are sorely mistaken w/ that observation on the Savage. There is only one acount I know of when a Savage blew. That rifle had over 5000 rounds through it, most of which were over Savage recommended loads. The event was quite questionable as well.

There are more Sako CFs that have blown than that and there are piles of accounts of diff MLers blowing w/ BP and Subs . I've even heard of TC blowing from improper loads.

AS long as the Savage is used as intructed by Savage it is very safe and in fact is the strongest factory produced Mler on the market.

If you are going to flame a poster for using a Savage then you need to flame any MLer in the world that uses BP subs. Pyrodex, 777, BM3, AP etc. are all BP subs just as smokeless is. If it's not real BP, it's a sub.

There are many states that allow smokeless Mlers and when it comes right down to it they are much more humane in most instances. I've shot deer w/ old Muskets and round balls and I know exactly how ineffective they can be. Sure they will kill deer and have for 100s of years but most folks that use them have wounded piles of animals w/ them as well. I can think of many times where my hunting buddies and I shot animals w/ patched round balls and the deer ran a long way w/ hardly any blood trail. The new inlines, sabot bullet technology, and new BP subs have made MLer much more lethal and effective.

Hunting w/ a Savage and smokeless is no different than hunting w/ any other inline on the market. A man w/ a fully loaded TC encore loading 150 grns of 777 under a saboted SST is no different than a man w/ a fully loaded Savage ML10 loading his w/ the same bullet/sabot and AA5744, both load there rifle the exact same way (from the Muzzle ), both have equally effective ranges, and both only get one shot at the game.

I own several Mlers and I like to hunt w/ all of them including the Savage. Hunting w/ the Savage is no different than hunting w/ my Disc extreme or CVA Appollo. I simply choose the Savage mostly because it's the only MLer I've ever owned that can shoot sub MOA groups as well as not having to clean the dang thing all of the time.

Geez, I thought this was the "black powder" portion of the forum and "NO" I don't reload. I have enough hobbies and I'm not anal about performance. I do, HOWEVER, have a dear friend who reloads and who is anal, so that helps.

As for Savage, had it any scintilla of intelligence ("forward thinking") it wouldn't have played with it's ass on this one. If you need to be a reloader to use one effectively,then that should have been your FIRST CLUE that it's not for the average guy out there. Secondly, they infringed on a "gray are" that BATF watches too closely already. Muzzleloaders were always exempt from the bureaucratic BS until T/C started with interchangeable barrels. Now Savage wants to snort HMR powder in muzzleloaders. Give me a break. The quintessential essence of muzzleloading was that it was a PRIMITIVE WEAPON. What part of that first word aren't you guys capable of understanding. I wouldn't buy anything Savage makes unless I was in need of a boatpaddle anyway, and if it's so "forward thinking", why hasn't T/C, Remington, or Browning jumped on it. DUH???

quote:

Geez, I thought this was the "black powder" portion of the forum

Hey George, this is the "MuzzleLoading Big Game Hunting" forum.

Here is the Link for the "Black Powder" Forum:Black Powder

We don't speak of our Savages there when refering to smokeless but, in this forum if you load it from the muzzle anything goes .


Have a Good One

Reloader

Reloader, that was a nice try. Terrible analogy, but still a nice try. The .30-30 originally meant a 30 caliber projectile loaded over a brass case containing 30 grains of BLACK POWDER. The .45-70? Same difference. The .25-20? Not a single one of them loaded from the muzzle and they used black powder. Today the .30-30 and the .45-70 CAN be loaded with black powder or with a paper patched bullet, but usually one thinks of them as modern cartridges. "Muzzleloading" was coined to describe the powder propellant as much as anything else. Dog shooter even tried to take the leap that the first black powder substitute was smokeless powder (WRONG! It was actually a REPLACEMENT for black powder.) But from your reply, is it save to assume that if I hunt houseflies with a potato gun, I should post it here?

Gee Reloader I guess for a PRIMITIVE WEAPON we should go back to wheellocks or what maybe match locks.

Primitive Pertaining to the beginning or origin;frist; Earliest;primary 2 Resembling the manners or style of long ago. old faqshioned;simple; plain

I guess it back to rocks and sticks if you really want primitive.

So George how primitive do you want the frist inlines designs are well over 200 years old.

George look in the dictionary for the meaning of substitute. One said to put in place of another. The other said to replace with another or a replacement for.

So I guess smokeless powder is just as good as a substitute, replacement or what ever you want to call it.

Muzzle loaders are still exempt from bureaucratic BS. No FFL needed to buy a savage and many others. Most states have no buying requirements also.

Why does one company bring a product out when another does not because they think they can make money on it.

quote:

I guess for a PRIMITIVE WEAPON we should go back to wheellocks or what maybe match locks.

I know a fella who hunts with a 10 ga matchlock smoothbore who thinks flintlocks and rifling is for sissies. No, I didn't bother asking his opinion of smokeless powder inlines. Bottomline, we need all the lawful hunters we can get into the woods - during all the different seasons - or we lose it all in another generation or two...