Dog shooter, I only speak one language: English. And I speak it very well and spell it just as well. You may buffalo some people with chips of wisdom about primitive weapons, but the person you want to play word games with is me. I know that a dictionary reports "usage" and does not in any way portray word origin. How else do you think a certain segment of our society can be gay without being happy?

quote:

Originally posted by p dog shooter:
Gee Reloader I guess for a PRIMITIVE WEAPON we should go back to wheellocks or what maybe match locks.

Primitive Pertaining to the beginning or origin;frist; Earliest;primary 2 Resembling the manners or style of long ago. old faqshioned;simple; plain

I guess it back to rocks and sticks if you really want primitive.

So George how primitive do you want the frist inlines designs are well over 200 years old.

George look in the dictionary for the meaning of substitute. One said to put in place of another. The other said to replace with another or a replacement for.

So I guess smokeless powder is just as good as a substitute, replacement or what ever you want to call it.

Muzzle loaders are still exempt from bureaucratic BS. No FFL needed to buy a savage and many others. Most states have no buying requirements also.

Why does one company bring a product out when another does not because they think they can make money on it.

p dog shooter, if you look at most of the DNR definitions of black powder substitute you will find they say black powder or black powder substitute and NOT SMOKELESS.

If you want to get technical, yes smokeless could be called a substitute, but you are just playing on words to make it fit your criteria.

Is this really worth getting in a war of wits????

Smokeless powder is the ORIGINAL substitute for black powder.

If it is legal to use a BP sub than Smokeless is no different than any other sub. Most folks just don't have a rig that's strong enough to use it therefore, they don't.

I'll say it again, A man w/ a loaded out Encore shooting 250 SSTs over 150grns 777 is absloutely in no way different than a man that uses 5744 etc in a rigged out Savage. It is absolutely absurd to say there's a big difference between the two. BOTH LOAD FROM THE MUZZLE AND BOTH SHOOT ONE TIME. THEREFORE, THEY ARE BOTH MUZZLE LOADING RIFLES PERIOD.

It's not rocket science.

If the law in your state specifically says "No Smokeless..." then don't use it BUT, if it says BP subs are permited than use what ever you please. I personally prefer to use the ORIGINAL BP sub, Smokeless

I still hunt w/ my other MLers and 777 or Pyrodex and as I said they are just the same, bp subs.

I bet you all will really have a heart attack over Mississippi's new primitive season. They are now allowing old carts such as 45-70 in single shot rifles

Have a Good One

Reloader

quote:

Originally posted by Reloader:
Smokeless powder is the ORIGINAL substitute for black powder.

If it is legal to use a BP sub than Smokeless is no different than any other sub. Most folks just don't have a rig that's strong enough to use it therefore, they don't.

I'll say it again, A man w/ a loaded out Encore shooting 250 SSTs over 150grns 777 is absloutely in no way different than a man that uses 5744 etc in a rigged out Savage. It is absolutely absurd to say there's a big difference between the two. BOTH LOAD FROM THE MUZZLE AND BOTH SHOOT ONE TIME. THEREFORE, THEY ARE BOTH MUZZLE LOADING RIFLES PERIOD.

It's not rocket science.

If the law in your state specifically says "No Smokeless..." then don't use it BUT, if it says BP subs are permited than use what ever you please. I personally prefer to use the ORIGINAL BP sub, Smokeless

I still hunt w/ my other MLers and 777 or Pyrodex and as I said they are just the same, bp subs.

I bet you all will really have a heart attack over Mississippi's new primitive season. They are now allowing old carts such as 45-70 in single shot rifles

Have a Good One

Reloader

Hell I think they should do away with all primitive season and just let us use what ever we want, but still keep the same seasons open.
Primitive season in reality no longer applies in "most" States, with inline's, using 150 gr. of triple 7 and smokeless powder, why not a single shot rifle using cartridges.

I do all aspect of hunting, Bow, handgun, muzzleloader and rifle.

Reloader, now YOU are playing with your ass. Obviously you have no concepts of the chemical reactions in this discussion. Black powder is a class A explosive while black powder substitutes are listed as "propellants". The substitutes are NOT explosives but they still fail to burn at the rates of smokeless powder. You, too, are trying to play with words and the last thing the modern muzzleloader shooter needs is some shithouse lawyer trying to interpret words to meet his own narrow desires. Before ANY OF YOU listen to this crap about smokeless powder being a SUBSTITUTE for black powder, you'd better be very versed on what your game laws read and exactly what the intent of them implies. Smokeless powder was never EVER a black powder "substitute". It REPLACED black powder just like refined gasoline replace coal oil and kerosene. Only ONE commercially marketed firearm sold today is made to withstand the pressures of smokeless powder, and all of the big names involved in muzzleloading have avoided that fine line like a plague. Contrary to what the two Einsteins here would have you believe, MOST states are very picky about the confines of muzzleloading firearms. Many of them still don't allow telescopic sights and some of them don't allow the 209 based primer systems. Pennsylvania just recently began allowing guns that weren't flintlock. There's always someone wanting to "push the envelope". Jails are full of them, but a fine should be the last of anyone's worries.

quote:

Hell I think they should do away with all primitive season and just let us use what ever we want, but still keep the same seasons open.
Primitive season in reality no longer applies in "most" States, with inline's, using 150 gr. of triple 7 and smokeless powder, why not a single shot rifle using cartridges.

I agree Redhawk1, Muzzleloading has become so modernized there's really no point in having a special season for MLing. They should just do away w/ the special season and allow everyone to hunt w/ the weapon of their choice wheter it be a Bow, Flinter, Inline, CF, etc... Today's MLers are just as effective as rifles under most circumstances.


Reloader

George, you sure do mention playing w/ folks rear ends quite a bit.

Your ridiculous unfactual post pretty much takes the cake. You clearly don't know as much on the subject as you thought.

By the way, There are many custom builders building smokless Mlers and barrels and marketing them so you can't just waste all of your insults on Savage . There are some quite fine Smokless Mlers being put out and you can buy smokless Mler barrels for just about any of the break open MLers on the market. Guess they are all idiots too

Ya'll have a good one.

Reloader

Thank you for pointing out the "unfactual" remarks that I made. What part of the ONLY commercially marketed muzzleloader that uses smokeless powder weren't you able to comprehend? Anyone COULD make such a firearm,but NO ONE IS MARKETING IT COMMERCIALLY. The rest of the "unfactual" information is dead on. If you continue to push this bullshit about smokeless powder being a "substitute" for black powder, you'd better be ready to speak to the reverse. If you can substitute smokeless for blackpowder, YOUR definition implies that you can substitute black for smokeless. Wanna tell me what the muzzle velocities of a .45-70 loaded with a black powder load and paper patched bullet compares with the same weight bullet propelled by smokeless powder? You wanna put 70 grains of smokeless in the .45-70? I'll sell tickets if you want to try. Even the new replica's shooting black powder cartridges have to use compressed loads to get anywhere near the velocities they need to break targets. The old cowboy shows were rather factual in tables and doors stopping bullets shot with black powder. The old .36 Navy with a maximum load will not penetrate 1/4 inch plywood at 35 yards. I do hope you're more careful at reloading than you are at muzzleloader.

Another pointless unfactual post.

George, you make absolutely no sense whatsoever.

You clearly don't understand the burn rate characteristics of smokeless powder. Do you even realize that smokeless loads from a Savage w/ many of today's smokeless powders produce less pressure than BP Look at the pressure curve studies which compare each.

What part of substitute do you not understand.

Some folks are like talking to a wall.

Reloader

Here's you a couple of sites to view and sharpen your views and understanding of smokeless Mling:
http://www.chuckhawks.com/about_smokeless_muzzleloading.htm
http://www.smokelessmuzzleloading.com/
http://www.chuckhawks.com/smokeless_powder_muzzleloading.htm
http://www.chuckhawks.com/interview_ball.htm
http://www.badbullmuzzleloaders.com/html/index.html

Just to name a few...

Actually my wall has a lot more going for it than you do. First off, "unfactual" is a contrived word, so that sort of puts a damper on subsequent arguments with me. Neither are my post "erroneous" which is the proper word. As I said, you're playing with yourself on wordplay.

You don't know me from Adam and have absolutely no clue as to what I know versus what some website host might put on the internet. I've taught hunter education for decades and a ritual part of it is to show the burn rates of both powders and discuss the dangers of mixing powders, even within their burn groupings. What you continue to ignore is that any search search engine on your hallowed internet will lead the most rank beginner in muzzleloading to this site. When it does, it gets your garbage about smokeless powder being a sufficient "substitute" without any clue of the dangers and repercussions inherent with that remark on face value. EVERYONE who visits here may not understand the moot point you're trying to push. In 50 years of shooting, I've seen ramrods fly down range, bullets put in before powder, using cigarette lighters to ignite flash pans, heating a breechplug for removal without removing or inerting the charge and even one idiot who mixed up his shotgun powder with his black powder. You can be as irresponsible as you like, but you must accept responsibility for trying to influence opinion that could easily get someone killed. To you, it's just a matter of "unfactual" word play, but to the neophyte, it could easily be a death sentence. That's exactly WHY all the mainstream firearms makers stay away from your ERRONEOUS reasoning and wordplay. They also don't try to compete with Savage as that would certainly be a step backwards.

George, you just confirmed my assesment that you are a hard-headed idiot that will not allow himself to learn any more.

Reloader

You're absolutely correct in that last remark. Since you've missed everything else in this post, let me share a bit of philosophy that you undoubtedly have never been exposed to: "The qualities we most dislike in others are usually those same qualities that we, ourselves, possess." Redhawk tells me I'm a legend in my own mind. Sounds like you must be too.

Reloader, let it go. It is like arguing with a drunk...you don't get anywhere and you just agitate the drunk.

I, for one, am glad I live in a state where the regulation is:

quote:

Legal muzzleloading rifle for deer (early season) - muzzleloading rifles and muskets that have open or peep sights, including fiber optic sights, that do not magnify the target, project visible light, or electronically amplify visible or infrared light, that can be loaded only through the front of the firing chamber with separate components and that fire a bullet of .39 inches in diameter or larger.

Who cares if the powder is black, green, blue, or any substitute, or replacement, thereof. The effect is the same.

As to George's credibility, he writes:

quote:

I only speak one language: English. And I speak it very well and spell it just as well.

just shortly after he types:

quote:

scintilla of intelligence ("forward thinking")

when intelligence has nothing to do with forward thinking and:

quote:

they infringed on a "gray are"

What is a "gray are"...maybe a new spelling of something we don't know. Or maybe:

quote:

Now Savage wants to snort HMR powder in muzzleloaders.

Whom is HMR powder? Or how about:

quote:

boatpaddle

Not a word in any dictionary I could find. And how about:

quote:

Triple Seven is the only one that doesn't contain sulfur (the main culprit in corrosion).

He doesn't know much about black powder substitutes if he has never heard of Black Mag3, or Pinnacle, or Shockey's Gold.

So we have learned a lot about both his intellect and credibility. Me thinks his only language is not English, but bad English.

As Bugs Bunny said, "What a Maroon!"

And, no I don't own a Savage ML.

quote:

Originally posted by george roof:
p dog shooter, you know you sound like the type of guy who makes "natural selection" proud. Many states expressly prohibit the use of smokeless powder during any special muzzleloader seasons. Savage was playing with it's ass when it designed that gun. Their sales were tanking and they needed an "edge". What they have yet to come to terms with, however, is the guys like you who think, "well, if it takes "x" amount of grains to shoot good, maybe I should add a couple more to make it shoot better." Those are the ones we find in the obituaries. If you want to play with muzzleloaders, stick with black powder or the substitutes. Why don't you write Savage and ask them how many reports of guns blowing up they have on their books. Course, it's ALWAYS the shooter's fault for being stupid and stupid should hurt. By the same token, "aiding and abetting" should hurt too.

Is this the "Christmas Spirit"?
Shame on you, George, for being such a potty-mouth. Be quiet, or I'll put you back in the suitcase.

We can all find credible facts, if we bother to do a simple amount of research. Ignorance is anyone's choice.

For years, blackpowder was just called "gunpowder." The notion of "blackpowder" is a modern development.

Pyrodex was sold for years as the "Smokeless Muzzleloading Propellant," printed on every can.

According to the DOT and the BATFE, the Federal entities that decide such matters: Triple Se7en, Black Mag 3, American Pioneer, etc., etc., are all smokeless powders.

Your theory that the ".30-30" was EVER a black powder cartidge is negligent-- it was originally released as a smokeless powder cartridge only. The black powder cartridge you are confusing it with is the .30 WCF.

As to the Savage 10ML-II, it has the safest track record of ANY muzzleloader ever made. No one has EVER been injured by shooting a Savage. Not one person, ever. Not a new idea: the Savage has been in continuous production for 7 years. The original patent holder, Henry Ball, is a good friend of mine. He will be happy to educate you if you elect to be educated.

George, have you considered how shotguns work? For the last 100 years: 209 primer, smokeless powder, wad (sabot) projectile. An old idea. That is exactly what you have in a Savage 10ML-II. What is mysterious?

On many boxes of shotshells you still see "3 drams equivalent" printed right on the box. A long time ago, it was decided that 3 drams of blackpowder pushes an 1-1/8 oz. load in a 12 ga. 1200 fps. That terminology, how ever dated, is still printed on shotshell boxes today. "Drams" is a measurement of blackpowder: not smokeless.

Of course "substitute" is not a trick "Bill Clinton-esque" word, it simply means used in place of.

Smokeless powder is a blackpowder substitute in original black powder cartridges, such as the .45-70 Government. Any competent reloading manual ("Richard Lee's Modern Reloading") makes this clear. The story of using smokeless powder as a blackpowder substitute, on the basis of safer to manufacture, store, handle, and use it documented in great detail in "Hatcher's Notebook," a classic and standard reference work.

Only in muzzleloading could a pellet be called "powder." Many muzzleloaders have never ever measured or used "powder" at all.

After all this time, a few folks wonder why Savage has no competition. Simple: the heart of the 10ML-II, the breechplug, is patented IP-- it is protected, and Savage defends their property.

The Magnificent Savage Breechplug

Barnes Bullets tests their bullets in Savage 10ML-II's. MMP sabots tests their sabots in Savages and other smokeless muzzleloaders. Accurate Arms powder company tests their powders in Savage 10ML-II barrels. Every credible firearms publication today has tested and reviewed the Savage 10ML-II from Layne Simpson in the Shooting Times to Ralph Lermayer in Outdoor Life without hitches.

The Savage 10ML-II is stronger than any common center-fire, withstanding over 129,000 PSI in destructive tests: all models. It is built with a 300% safety factor-- more than any other muzzleloader ever made, more than any shotgun, handgun, or centerfire rifle.

No heavy, .45 caliber projectile is comparable to the old .30-06, or a .270 Winchester-- not even remotely close. Big bores are not particularly flat shooters. That was not the reason for the Savage 10ML-II.

The reason for the Savage 10ML-II is safety, accuracy, and non-corrosive propellants that are not only economical, but do not rot your barrel or destroy your vision.

Savage CEO Ron Coburn is not an individual that does not have a passion for hunting himself. He has, and still hunts with a Savage 10ML-II. Savage muzzleloaders, like their centerfires, are made with great care and pride in Westfield, Mass. Accuracy, safety, and value run through the Savage line. It is no coincidence they are so successful, and successful they clearly are: they continue to be successful by providing value and quality every day, every year.

Savage Arms has never attacked other companies, or belittled any hunting preferences. From day one, they have always published Pyrodex, etc., loads for their muzzleloader. The versatility of the rifle is there, and is the individual's choice to make.

If you want to make smoke, have at it: load your 10ML-II up with Black Mag 3, and you still have the only fully sealed action muzzleloader ever made, with the highest level of safety, the best trigger ever put on a muzzleloader, and the greatest out-of-the-box accuracy.

1-1/2 in. 100 yard groups is the promise that comes with every Savage 10ML-II made: not much can live on the difference.

Merry Christmas.

Well, we have a few more legends in their own minds joining the fray. Larry, I apologize for the misspellings. Oftentimes my fingers type faster that my mind and I skip keys or these rented fingers find a wrong spot. I'm content with that and if that's the only thing you have to refute my statements, you're a mentally challenged as Reloader.

Randy, your arguments are just as devoid of content. I routinely shoot 1.5 inche groups off a rest at 100 yards with my T/C Encore using 3 Triple Seven pellets. Your point is? Don't speak to me about "Clintonesque" play on words. If a substitute can work one way, by definition it is also interchangeable the other way. To imply that a shot cup and a sabot (sa BOW, BTW) are one in the same really reeks of "ignorance". The word comes from your French "friends" and in no way assimilates what a shot cup does. And neither of you touched the idea of the internet surfers who come on here and read your heralds about using smokeless powder in muzzleloaders. What's with that? Truth hurting a bit there? And Randy, if you honestly believe that Pyrodex is a "smokeless" powder, I'm going to start wondering what else you've been smoking. Back in the 1950, Carter's made Little Liver Pills that would cure all of your ails according to the label on that container. And you're not ever going to change my opinion of Savage producing POS firearms. And you're right, they probaby wouldn't make a good boat PADDLE.

A wise man has the ability to change his mind; a fool never does.

Randy. Reloader and like minds I guess George is the expert we have all wanted to be.

Unlike like the ones who have put forth facts and logical arguments.

Unlike others of us who are certified NRA, Law enforcement firearms instructors, ceritifed armorers for 4 major firearm companys, who have been reloading for more then 40 years, NRA life members ect.

Yep George the Taxidermist is the expert we all wanted to be.

Personal attacks always same to work well when one can not make the case for your point of veiw.

I guess it is easy to excuse one self for fat fingers but not others.

For me I well injoy my savage ML as much as my other savage rifles which have proven to be some of the most accurate of the dozens I own.

I guess I well load for it with the same care I load the other 50 calibers I load for.

I haven't blown up any other rifles I own so I well not worry about blowing up a savage muzzle loader.

When I shoot my first rounds with it I well enjoy not having to clean up a black powder mess.

P dog, what part of "reloading" has anything to do with "MUZZLELOADING"?? I could really care if you were J. Edgar Hoover, muzzleloaders weren't used by the FBI so where would that expertise come from. I was probably building custom muzzleloading "Lancaster" rifles while you were in high school, but along those same lines, "Big Whoop". I am a certified by the National Muzzle Loading Rifle Association as a master instructor - another Big Whoop.

And Randy, you flunk Philosophy 101. It probably sounds good to your legions but a truly wise man never changes his mind unless he finds facts that refute his previous beliefs. You ain't there yet.

This thread was a friendly one until one post. It is obvious when that happened. I am not responsible for a charisma bypass operation that was an obvious success.

When the topic is muzzleloading propellants, and you have no contribution to make it means only that you just have no contribution to make.



Sometimes it works.

Some times Randy it works some times it doesn't.

I'm not experienced in BP firearms, except by shooting a few that belong to friends.

That said...., I learned more about the Savage MLs in this thread - while you all were defending them - than in any other thread I've ever read.
---

It rarely bothers me for people to disagree with my thoughts, because I often learn something from them that I'm not aware of - as long as the dicussion remains civil. Certainly don't intend my comments as a Sermon to anyone in this thread.

Just wanted to say Thank You to all of you for providing information I could learn from.

Randy, where did you get that can? Graybeard?

quote:

Originally posted by concho:
I used them all and T-7 3/F is the best ! Go back a few pages and read about Jim Shockeys Garbage American Powder !

I'm not sure why you called this stuff garbage. I, for one, have used pyrodex, triple 7, and the American Pioneer. I have not tried the shockey gold stuff, but what I can tell you is American Pioneer is not garbage.

In 3 MLs it is SUPERIOR to Triple 7. My current Knight shoots 3" groups at 200 yards. When I tried T7, I couldn't get ANY bullet to group worth a shit at 200. 7" groups were the best I could get.

Not only that, you have to be carefull with T7 and your cleaning. this stuff creates a burn ring where the bullet is seated, and in many bbls it is hard to get rid of. So I guess that garbage comment goes both ways.

I haven't used T7 again, and haven't bothered trying it since American Pioneer was so much more superior in my rifle. My brother, on the other hand, used some of my left over T7 and the 245 grain Barnes bullet and he is also getting 3" groups at 200 yards in his new ML, which is a Traditions.

Moreover, my velocity is higher with the American Pioneer.

Doc, the crud ring has been all but eliminated by using the ML primers or .410 shotgun primers. Still, it exists. It's very easly removed by sticking a toothpick in your primer hole and filling the barrel with Windex. Let it set for 20 minutes, pour it out, run 2 dry patches and it will be spotless. Run a lubed patch with Bore Butter or light machine oil and your barrel will shine like new. Best way to clean ANY charcoal burner.

Windex? Cool. Thanks for the tip!

I actually have used Kroil after cleaning without ill effect. Any opinion?

Never tried it. I know Windex breaks down the chemistry of oxidized sulfer without damaging the steel in the barrel. Have to plead ignorance about other ways. (When I made Lancasters, I did learn very quickly that soaking them in boiling soapy water in a plastic bathtub would get you a permanent tub ring and on your wife's permanent shit list. I had to get a new wife to end that stigma. LOL)

quote:

Originally posted by george roof:
Never tried it. I know Windex breaks down the chemistry of oxidized sulfer without damaging the steel in the barrel.

Too bad that there's no sulfur in Triple 7 !!!!Triple 7 is a "sulfurless" black powder substitute.It is based on gluconic acid.The other subs like APP and Shockey's Gold are based on citric acid, also sulphurless.

Hey George, That Windex you are using - is it the one with the Ammonia-D in it or the Original Windex?

I remember a guy older than me(which makes him REAL old) that used a combination of Murphy's Oil Soap, Original Windex and Rubbing Alcohol to clean his barrel "between shots". He was shooting Patched Round Balls with Pyrodex before these other BP-subs hit the market.

I only use the Windex with Vinegar, it is now called Multi purpose Windex. It is the clear liquid.

I have been using it for years with great success in my muzzleloader's as well as my Shiloh Sharps that I shoot BP cartridges.

Bowhntr, I didn't mean to imply Windex was ONLY for sulfer based propellants. It works for ALL of them. I use regular Windex or in a bind, simple windshield washer fluid. At the end of the season, however, I don't care what I've been using, it's time to dismantle the firearm and REALLY clean it.

quote:

Originally posted by george roof:
At the end of the season, however, I don't care what I've been using, it's time to dismantle the firearm and REALLY clean it.

Oh, absolutely, that is a must.

I use "Touch of Glass" from the dollar store. It contains ammonia and really breaks up the Triple 7 "Crud ring" with just one wet patch. I saturate a bunch of patches with it and keep them in a ziploc bag. When at the range, I follow every shot with a wet patch, then 2 dry ones, using both sides. When I get home, I take out the breech plug, use some more wet and dry patches followed by an oiled patch. I then clean and lube the breech plug and I'm good to go. So far, this system has been working well with my Triple 7.

quote:

Originally posted by bowhuntrrl:
I use "Touch of Glass" from the dollar store. It contains ammonia and really breaks up the Triple 7 "Crud ring" with just one wet patch. I saturate a bunch of patches with it and keep them in a ziploc back. When at the range, I follow every shot with a wet patch, then 2 dry ones, using both sides. When I get home, I take out the breech plug, use some more wet and dry patches followed by an oiled patch. I then clean and lube the breech plug and I'm good to go. So far, this system has been working well with my Triple 7.

ammonia is corrosive. That is why I use the Windex with Vinegar.

ammonia is corrosive but if it is wiped away quick and followed by dry patches and then oil, do you think the bore will be ok?

quote:

Originally posted by Doc:
ammonia is corrosive but if it is wiped away quick and followed by dry patches and then oil, do you think the bore will be ok?

It sure would be OK, I just worry if I was to miss an area with oil. If the Windex got into the action or an area that was missed. Just a caution I guess.

Good point. I use a lot of oil anyway, so I'd be surprised if I missed a spot. I oil heavily, then push a dry to get most so as to lean a film only.

quote:

originally posted by Redhawk
ammonia is corrosive. That is why I use the Windex with Vinegar.

What, you don't think vinegar is just as corrosive ?? Vinegar is acidic. All the best copper solvents and barrel cleaners have ammonia as a main ingredient.

quote:

Originally posted by bowhuntrrl:

quote:

originally posted by Redhawk
ammonia is corrosive. That is why I use the Windex with Vinegar.

What, you don't think vinegar is just as corrosive ?? Vinegar is acidic. All the best copper solvents and barrel cleaners have ammonia as a main ingredient.

Look at the percent of Vinegar in the product. Yes any acidic compound is corrosive, but if diluted is not as harmful. The solvents you are talking about have a high ammonia content.

Hell eye drops have a acid in them, but they don't burn your eyes out. It is in the amount that it is diluted that makes the difference. But thank you for the chemistry lesson.

quote:

Originally posted by nordrseta:

quote:

I guess for a PRIMITIVE WEAPON we should go back to wheellocks or what maybe match locks.

I know a fella who hunts with a 10 ga matchlock smoothbore who thinks flintlocks and rifling is for sissies. No, I didn't bother asking his opinion of smokeless powder inlines. Bottomline, we need all the lawful hunters we can get into the woods - during all the different seasons - or we lose it all in another generation or two...

I am going to take my Encore out this afternoon,place two "50 cal." 777 pellets in it,and put a .45 cal saboted Hornady 300 gn. bullet on top of that. I will put a 209 primer made for muzzleloaders in it and if I see a deer,I will shoot (at) it.

I would be shooting smokeless powder if I had the correct barrel for my Encore to do so.

If someone comes out with something better and more efficient,I will use that. I will never shoot black powder in my Encore. That to me is like putting leaded gasoline in my vehicle,I don't need to. I use unleaded. It is more modern.

Shame on the person who created "smokeless" powder,or a substitute. Why would someone want to improve on black powder? And then actually USE it! Not to mention develop a gun that would be DESIGNED to use it.

Do people really think that the evolution of firearms has to stop at a certain point in time to feel "comfortable" about using them,or their propellants? It is a tool for Christ's sake!

Think of where you'd be on the battlefield with your outdated firearms.

Merry Christmas and I want a Pro Hunter with the stock that absorbs 40% of recoil on it,and yes folks,it is PLASTIC!

Smallfish, nice tantrum. Sounds like me, but the argument falls apart when I go ARCHERY hunting. It's not that anyone wants to thwart progress, it's that we revisit these issues to give us a better appreciation of what we have versus what our ancestors had. Every sport has its purists and I can appreciate them. The only point I was trying to make was that if we continue pushing the envelope WITHIN THE CONFINES of muzzleloading, some pencildick politician is going to try to make a law against us.