quote:

Originally posted by lavaca:
Sitting here listening to Nikki Hailey talk about abortion. I'm conservative, but a bit different. As a conservative, I think the government ought to keep out of your business.

So, while I'm Catholic, although not a very good one if you count how often I've been to mass lately, I'm opposed to abortion. But it's not up to the government to tell everyone whether they are or are not able to get an abortion.

That's a decision every person has to make and it's between them and God.

I thought that was called the separation of Church and State.

Now my stance is probably going to piss off just about everybody, but there it is.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
Who advocates for the speechless? The life of a child always deserves the benefit of the doubt.

quote:

Originally posted by Mike Mitchell:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
Who advocates for the speechless? The life of a child always deserves the benefit of the doubt.

Apparently, you think you do.

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Originally posted by nute:
Abortion should be the absolute last resort. But to make it that you need to provide the resources and education to those most likely to resort to it, the poor, minorities and the poorly educated.

Just declaring that something is illegal doesn’t get rid of it, you need to make the other options easier or more attractive.

I wonder how many of those in government would vote for extra funding for education about and access to contraception in inner city schools in minority areas, or for that matter increases in funding for child social services to help kids from dead beat parents.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by Mike Mitchell:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
Who advocates for the speechless? The life of a child always deserves the benefit of the doubt.

Apparently, you think you do.

I do. And I sleep well at night knowing I do.

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Originally posted by LHeym500:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by Mike Mitchell:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
Who advocates for the speechless? The life of a child always deserves the benefit of the doubt.

Apparently, you think you do.

I do. And I sleep well at night knowing I do.

Proves nothing.

quote:

Originally posted by Jefffive:
I am absolutely against abortion.

Every possible alternative, from sex education to contraception to streamlined adoption should be available.

Abortion should be as rare as we can possibly make it, but in the final analysis it should and must be the choice of the woman involved, not the government.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by Jefffive:
I am absolutely against abortion.

Every possible alternative, from sex education to contraception to streamlined adoption should be available.

Abortion should be as rare as we can possibly make it, but in the final analysis it should and must be the choice of the woman involved, not the government.

Excellent post Jeff. Credit where credit is due.

I will just say I differ slightly in that the speechless need an advocate.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by Jefffive:
I am absolutely against abortion.

Every possible alternative, from sex education to contraception to streamlined adoption should be available.

Abortion should be as rare as we can possibly make it, but in the final analysis it should and must be the choice of the woman involved, not the government.

Excellent post Jeff. Credit where credit is due.

I will just say I differ slightly in that the speechless need an advocate.

So do you support the current Texas law?

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by Jefffive:
I am absolutely against abortion.

Every possible alternative, from sex education to contraception to streamlined adoption should be available.

Abortion should be as rare as we can possibly make it, but in the final analysis it should and must be the choice of the woman involved, not the government.

Excellent post Jeff. Credit where credit is due.

I will just say I differ slightly in that the speechless need an advocate.

So do you support the current Texas law?

I like it better than before but it needs refinement.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by Jefffive:
I am absolutely against abortion.

Every possible alternative, from sex education to contraception to streamlined adoption should be available.

Abortion should be as rare as we can possibly make it, but in the final analysis it should and must be the choice of the woman involved, not the government.

Excellent post Jeff. Credit where credit is due.

I will just say I differ slightly in that the speechless need an advocate.

So do you support the current Texas law?

I like it better than before but it needs refinement.

. . . do you believe "in the final analysis it should and must be the choice of the woman involved, not the government"?

quote:

Originally posted by Jefffive:
I am absolutely against abortion.

Every possible alternative, from sex education to contraception to streamlined adoption should be available.

Abortion should be as rare as we can possibly make it, but in the final analysis it should and must be the choice of the woman involved, not the government.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
So Jeff had a great post except for the bottom line that you happen to disagree with . . . you're a piece of work.

quote:

I am absolutely against abortion. Every possible alternative, from sex education to contraception to streamlined adoption should be available. Abortion should be as rare as we can possibly make it, but in the final analysis it should and must be the choice of the woman involved, not the government.

quote:

Originally posted by bluefish:
And why does father get a say in his child’s life after his son is born but not before? There is a logical disconnect to these arguments.

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Originally posted by bluefish:
That is not a response nor does it solve the logical inconsistency of the argument.

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Originally posted by Jefffive:

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Originally posted by bluefish:
That is not a response nor does it solve the logical inconsistency of the argument.

It's not a child pre-birth, it's an embryo or a fetus, depending on the stage of the pregnancy.

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Originally posted by crbutler:
Abortion is wrong.

Telling the mother what she can/cannot do to herself is wrong.

Two wrongs don't make a right.

Trying to write a perfect abortion law is pretty much impossible.

I have no issue with killing, lord knows. But the folks who are pro abortion are going through an awful lot of mental gymnastics to try and say we are not killing. You are. Admit it and say the mother's choice overrides the infants. Make the woman sign an affidavit that she understands that an abortion is killing and she wishes to do it.

That should solve the moral end of it, she took responsibility for her decision and it was not some deception that this was not a living creature.

Abortion isn't going to stop. We owe it to the women involved that it isn't going to be wholly unregulated and they end up dying from a relatively modest procedure.

I do get that after some point it is necessary to say its no longer quite the simple procedure, and if the baby is capable of living on its own without professional medical assistance, it needs to be tried under the same laws as self defense use of force, IMO.

quote:

Originally posted by bluefish:

quote:

Originally posted by Jefffive:

quote:

Originally posted by bluefish:
That is not a response nor does it solve the logical inconsistency of the argument.

It's not a child pre-birth, it's an embryo or a fetus, depending on the stage of the pregnancy.

Again, this statement is a logical fallacy. An unborn child whether embryo or fetus is still a human with all the traits it shall grow up with. Embryo, fetus, child, juvenile, and adult or all names for stages of development of any human being. But make no mistake it is human.

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Originally posted by bluefish:
And?
It is also the father’s child.

quote:

Originally posted by bluefish:
Are you telling us the father has no rights which attach until birth? Why then is it in jurisdictions where the law can attach criminal liability for killing a woman and an unborn child the father can file a civil suit for wrongful death for both parties then?

Again your logical argument simply has no merit.

quote:

Originally posted by bluefish:
Then why should a woman be able to be impregnated by a man and not let him have a say so? Without the man’s contribution there would be no pregnancy. They play they pay.
So, if she gets pregnant and doesn’t want it but he does too bad. But if she gets pregnant and wants it but he doesn’t then he has to potentially pony up for 18 years. No counterargument has been posited which contains a logical consistency throughout it.

quote:

Originally posted by bluefish:
The word salad offered nothing to the discussion. The fact is your side cannot make a logical, cogent argument on this point period. So, it would be received if it were at least discussed in honest terms. The fact is regardless of what stage of development we are examining, we are talking about a person. Your side wants to have a legal framework in place where killing that person comes without legal jeopardy. That is a discussion which can be had. So simply be honest and call it what it is and then argument for or against may ensue.