One Of America’s Priciest Green Boondoggles May Be Going Offline After Sucking Up Subsidies And Incinerating Birds

Story by Nick Pope

One of the most expensive green energy projects ever undertaken in American history looks like it is now on borrowed time after eating up massive amounts of taxpayer dollars and killing thousands of birds.

Pacific Gas and Electric (PG&E) — a major utility company — announced in January that it is terminating power purchase contracts with the owners of Southwestern California’s Ivanpah Solar Power facility, a massive and unique solar project that received hundreds of millions of subsidy dollars as it launched in 2014. Just over a decade after it started operations, the facility appears to be headed toward its demise after killing thousands of birds because it could not provide the utility sufficiently cheap energy.

The Los Angeles Times reported in 2016 that the Ivanpah project killed an average of 6,000 birds each year, with some of the unlucky creatures colliding with the development’s 40-story towers and others being incinerated instantly upon flying through concentrated sunlight while chasing prey. The project received tax breaks, a $1.6 billion loan guarantee from the Obama Department of Energy (DOE) and a further $535 million subsidy from the Obama Department of Transportation (DOT), but it failed to reach advertised power output levels, according to analysis by Benjamin Zycher, an energy-focused senior fellow at the American Enterprise Institute (AEI).

More here: https://www.msn.com/en-us/news...ng-birds/ar-AA1ylZen

Non fossil fuel generation here is greater than 50%, inc nuclear it was pushing 60% I think. It wanders about a bit as we have quite a high proportion of wind generation. I really can't see the point of solar at our latitude and Im supposed tidal isn't used more as we have quite a lot of that.

A few years ago, I stopped in at the Ivanpah facility, just out of curiosity. I asked if they had some literature on the project or information they shared with the public, because I was interested. A security guy more or less told me to eff off. I resisted the urge to give him a kick in the nuts and got back into my truck. When people are pissing away government money, they are often a little defensive. Bill

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Leeper:
A few years ago, I stopped in at the Ivanpah facility, just out of curiosity. I asked if they had some literature on the project or information they shared with the public, because I was interested. A security guy more or less told me to eff off. I resisted the urge to give him a kick in the nuts and got back into my truck. When people are pissing away government money, they are often a little defensive. Bill

Wow. No excuse for that, after all you're paying for it.

So far I still think if we want to get rid of fossil fuels, at least for a lot of energy needs, we need to go back to well built nuclear reactors.

I do like solar for running small things around my farm but one needs a pretty big array to run stuff like water pumps/wells, water heaters, average household needs, etc.

Just more stupid WOKE ideology. Dumb democrats Obama, John Kerry, O’Biden wasting billions of dollars without any science or financial analysis.
John Kerry should be given a life sentence in Guantanamo.

quote:

Originally posted by Aspen Hill Adventures:
So far I still think if we want to get rid of fossil fuels, at least for a lot of energy needs, we need to go back to well built nuclear reactors.

I do like solar for running small things around my farm but one needs a pretty big array to run stuff like water pumps/wells, water heaters, average household needs, etc.

There are places in Wyoming where windmills on water wells are being replaced with solar panels. These are Trump voters by and large, they are doing it because it makes sense from a cash-in-the-bank viewpoint. I am in favor of this, it makes antelope water holes less visible to other out-of-state hunters.

There is one interesting one where vegetation is fenced to leave better cover for birds. Antelope can get through the fence, not so easy for cows.

I idly wonder if Ivanpah might be repurposed as a deep-space antenna that can be pointed at microwave emitters.

I agree. So much waste. These pet projects are mostly garbage that never amount to anything but wasted money.

A well pump windmill needs a handful of grease very couple years and maybe a 5 year to tune up the works, lifespan? Who knows,50 years? And if a blade is damaged it can be field made/rebuilt with common maintenance tools... and one glance from miles away with binos will tell you if it's working

Solar panels degrade, every year, to the point of uselessness and batteries need to be replaced

Of course hit-and-miss motors will run basically forever

quote:

Originally posted by TomP:

quote:

Originally posted by Aspen Hill Adventures:
So far I still think if we want to get rid of fossil fuels, at least for a lot of energy needs, we need to go back to well built nuclear reactors.

I do like solar for running small things around my farm but one needs a pretty big array to run stuff like water pumps/wells, water heaters, average household needs, etc.

There are places in Wyoming where windmills on water wells are being replaced with solar panels. These are Trump voters by and large, they are doing it because it makes sense from a cash-in-the-bank viewpoint. I am in favor of this, it makes antelope water holes less visible to other out-of-state hunters.

There is one interesting one where vegetation is fenced to leave better cover for birds. Antelope can get through the fence, not so easy for cows.

I idly wonder if Ivanpah might be repurposed as a deep-space antenna that can be pointed at microwave emitters.

I am unsure as to what kind of well pumps those are. I do know my solar system for emergency power loss (grid) will run stuff like my freezers and lights but don't have enough juice to start the well pumps. I do have a gas generator for those should I need to run water.

Time & tech wait for nobody. Your personal opinions are irrelevant. Cars will never replace horses, men will never fly, etc. The stupid is off the charts.

quote:

Originally posted by wymple:
Time & tech wait for nobody. Your personal opinions are irrelevant. Cars will never replace horses, men will never fly, etc. The stupid is off the charts.

Pymple, as usual, your personal opinions contribute nothing useful.

quote:

Originally posted by Aspen Hill Adventures:
I agree. So much waste. These pet projects are mostly garbage that never amount to anything but wasted money.

Research and exploration is expensive.

NASA doesn't come cheap, nor does our Department of Energy and it's nuke work.
Columbus had to be financed by a queen.

Sitting in the same place doing the same thing, depending on the same old same old doesn't scream advancement to me.

quote:

Originally posted by Aspen Hill Adventures:

quote:

Originally posted by wymple:
Time & tech wait for nobody. Your personal opinions are irrelevant. Cars will never replace horses, men will never fly, etc. The stupid is off the charts.

Pymple, as usual, your personal opinions contribute nothing useful.

Ann
Most of his food comes from fast food, per his own statements.. he might be one of those people that thinks food comes from a grocery store

quote:

Originally posted by wymple:
Time & tech wait for nobody. Your personal opinions are irrelevant. Cars will never replace horses, men will never fly, etc. The stupid is off the charts.

Said no one on this forum, ever... but elections have consequences... follow your own advice

When my well pump fails (as it inevitably will) I'm considering replacing it with a solar powered DC pump; this in combination with a 4000 gallon storage tank up on the hill. Cost will be a factor. Bill.

I don’t think the wind/solar/tidal “green” technologies are really effective and truly sustainable or ecologically friendly.

Solar has a place, but the cost to make it is way higher than the energy it puts out in its lifetime.

Is it a useful adjunct? Absolutely. It’s only even approaching economically viable in the west when tax subsidies are used, or for very low yield use in remote locations.

Wind? Again a loser when net energy required to make and emplace it is compared to what it puts out.

Tidal has some potential for not being at the whim of the weather, but still I doubt it would be a net producer compared to what it would take to build it.

Carbon based energy generally has lower cost up front and does take less energy to make and run than it produces- but at a cost of depletion of resources and pollution.

Nuclear, either fission or fusion, are the most capable of generating more than it takes to build and run, and comparatively makes very little pollution or waste. It’s very expensive (we have yet to even build a sustaining fusion reactor) but they do have a frightening risk of severity of bad outcome if something wrong does happen.

I’m not against solar- it’s very useful and affordable in some situations, but it’s not capable of powering society- at least until we can make orbital arrays and transfer the power to where it needs to go.

Wind is similar, but even less capable than solar.

Tidal I’m unfamiliar with any successful significant use.

Fusion is purely theoretical at this point.

Fission is potentially workable, but the people are unwilling to go there. The greenies are not supportive of a workable method if it involves nuclear power.

Until you solve this, bloviating about EV’s or carbon pollution is just so much political hot air.

Fission would be GREAT if we used salt reactors that fail safe/cold - rather than using 60 year old approaches-- we know better now

quote:

Originally posted by Scott King:

quote:

Originally posted by Aspen Hill Adventures:
I agree. So much waste. These pet projects are mostly garbage that never amount to anything but wasted money.

Research and exploration is expensive.

NASA doesn't come cheap, nor does our Department of Energy and it's nuke work.
Columbus had to be financed by a queen.

Sitting in the same place doing the same thing, depending on the same old same old doesn't scream advancement to me.

Agreed except... Our govt has shown over and over to fund some pretty bad stuff that is clearly a huge waste of money. Look at that speed rail for California as an example. I would have expected a better choice would have been to enlarge our rural interstate system rather than a limited rail system. We rely heavily on OTR trucking for goods to be transported and semis are piled up on the same two lanes built in the 1950's-60's. Senseless.

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Leeper:
When my well pump fails (as it inevitably will) I'm considering replacing it with a solar powered DC pump; this in combination with a 4000 gallon storage tank up on the hill. Cost will be a factor. Bill.

Indeed! These are expensive as are traditional well pumps but again, easier to use if you can afford the transformation and handle the maintenance. I love solar for the most part but those panels do break down quickly. I know better technology will eventually come along.

Solyndra

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:

quote:

Originally posted by Aspen Hill Adventures:

quote:

Originally posted by wymple:
Time & tech wait for nobody. Your personal opinions are irrelevant. Cars will never replace horses, men will never fly, etc. The stupid is off the charts.

Pymple, as usual, your personal opinions contribute nothing useful.

Ann
Most of his food comes from fast food, per his own statements.. he might be one of those people that thinks food comes from a grocery store

I have seen his comments on his food choices. I have not commented on his choices because it's his choice plus I really do not want to engage in conversation with such a rude and nasty person. I try hard to be polite and avoid him but he seems to want to engage in nastiness and often to the point of being a stalker. I could certainly reply in kind but I elect not to. He's one of (several) the most unlikable people here who has absolutely nothing to contribute other than to go out of the way to be rude. I don't understand it and hope it catches up to him someday.

Ann,
there's a few that seem to come after you, the only known active female poster in this forum, pretty hot and heavy - AND make sexist comments about it - close enough is certainly one of them -- i would say he's ring leader, but i doubt he could lead a circle ... well, nevermind

Can we just run few extension cords from Sun to Earth?

quote:

Originally posted by M.Shy:
Can we just run few extension cords from Sun to Earth?

sure, though i just did the math, 93M milles, *5280 in feet, /1000 to get to known weight of 0 gauge wire (318# per k) and divided by 2000 -- results in 200,040 tons --

I don't think even elon could get that into space in one go

quote:

Originally posted by M.Shy:
Can we just run few extension cords from Sun to Earth?

Sounds like a Trump proposal.

quote:

Originally posted by Aspen Hill Adventures:

quote:

Originally posted by TomP:

quote:

Originally posted by Aspen Hill Adventures:
So far I still think if we want to get rid of fossil fuels, at least for a lot of energy needs, we need to go back to well built nuclear reactors.

I do like solar for running small things around my farm but one needs a pretty big array to run stuff like water pumps/wells, water heaters, average household needs, etc.

There are places in Wyoming where windmills on water wells are being replaced with solar panels. These are Trump voters by and large, they are doing it because it makes sense from a cash-in-the-bank viewpoint. I am in favor of this, it makes antelope water holes less visible to other out-of-state hunters.

There is one interesting one where vegetation is fenced to leave better cover for birds. Antelope can get through the fence, not so easy for cows.

I idly wonder if Ivanpah might be repurposed as a deep-space antenna that can be pointed at microwave emitters.

I am unsure as to what kind of well pumps those are. I do know my solar system for emergency power loss (grid) will run stuff like my freezers and lights but don't have enough juice to start the well pumps. I do have a gas generator for those should I need to run water.

I was not around for the installation, so don't have details. They were existing wells with windmills before (handy for climbing up to see where a lung-shot antelope fell in the sage). The panels thenselves are sizeable (absent-mindedly did not take pictures of the back-panel data). I am going to guess that they are not high-volume pumps; windmills of the usual Jacobs size do not produce a lot of power and they have all day to fill a stock tank.

At least two of them are on BLM land, so the model numbers should be public record. The Pinedale G&F office can probably point to data, they are the ones who told us about the science experiment with the birds.

It’s very simple. When you can manufacture green energy equipment/structures/machinery using green energy you have something. Yes we need research and development, but not large installations. We’re not there yet.

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
Solyndra

'Nuff said!

quote:

Originally posted by tomahawker:
It’s very simple. When you can manufacture green energy equipment/structures/machinery using green energy you have something. Yes we need research and development, but not large installations. We’re not there yet.

And green materials

quote:

Originally posted by M.Shy:

quote:

Originally posted by tomahawker:
It’s very simple. When you can manufacture green energy equipment/structures/machinery using green energy you have something. Yes we need research and development, but not large installations. We’re not there yet.

And green materials

I have to agree- but that said, someday in the future this will happen!

quote:

Originally posted by Aspen Hill Adventures:

quote:

Originally posted by M.Shy:

quote:

Originally posted by tomahawker:
It’s very simple. When you can manufacture green energy equipment/structures/machinery using green energy you have something. Yes we need research and development, but not large installations. We’re not there yet.

And green materials

I have to agree- but that said, someday in the future this will happen!

Wow. I'm sorta impressed.

The way I'm reading this "logic" is circular defeat.

How are we gonna get "there" if we can't recognize the problem and take the leap?

We have a super-rich guy, appointed, anointed, unelected, sticking his foot in the door of politics, who could tackle this problem and solutions, yet he dreams of inhabiting Mars, and owning the USA.

And he's cheered.

Go figure.

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:

quote:

Originally posted by M.Shy:
Can we just run few extension cords from Sun to Earth?

sure, though i just did the math, 93M milles, *5280 in feet, /1000 to get to known weight of 0 gauge wire (318# per k) and divided by 2000 -- results in 200,040 tons --

I don't think even elon could get that into space in one go

Don't forget voltage drop Jeff.

quote:

Originally posted by Aspen Hill Adventures:

quote:

Originally posted by M.Shy:

quote:

Originally posted by tomahawker:
It’s very simple. When you can manufacture green energy equipment/structures/machinery using green energy you have something. Yes we need research and development, but not large installations. We’re not there yet.

And green materials

I have to agree- but that said, someday in the future this will happen!

I hope so! And when it makes fiscal and environmental sense I will be heavily on board.

BTW, I have been interested in and done some research on a solar powered well for off grid.

I plan to make it happen on my rural property.

So far, from what I know, it doesn't seem that complicated.

I think the first step is find a well digger familiar with this.

quote:

Originally posted by JTEX:

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:

quote:

Originally posted by M.Shy:
Can we just run few extension cords from Sun to Earth?

sure, though i just did the math, 93M milles, *5280 in feet, /1000 to get to known weight of 0 gauge wire (318# per k) and divided by 2000 -- results in 200,040 tons --

I don't think even elon could get that into space in one go

Don't forget voltage drop Jeff.

Jim,
i suppressed LOTS of things -- like gravity, torsion, assumed rigidity, ignored that space is bending in at least 3 directions, orbital variance -- ignored that #0 wire can't lift 200,000 tons

oh, and voltage drop... simply because i would have had to look up the formula, electricity (i am a low voltage guy, though) isn't my skill.... but materials? THEM i can figure out

quote:

Originally posted by Magine Enigam:
BTW, I have been interested in and done some research on a solar powered well for off grid.

I plan to make it happen on my rural property.

So far, from what I know, it doesn't seem that complicated.

I think the first step is find a well digger familiar with this.

There are lots of choices for these. I believe you can replace what you have as a grid powered pump with one of these in the same bore hole. You need to mind how deep you need to be to collect and pump water with the size pump needed- If you have a high vs low water table.

https://www.amazon.com/s?k=sol...b_sb_ss_ts-doa-p_5_8

quote:

Originally posted by wymple:
Time & tech wait for nobody. Your personal opinions are irrelevant.
Cars will never replace horses, men will never fly, etc.
The stupid is off the charts.

And Wyoming Trump voters will disdain wind and solar...

David Criswell wrote a paper awhile back proposing solar power based on the moon, built with material from lunar regolith. The beginning of the paper details resources necessary for a 20-terawatt world economy based on terrestrial power and why we don't have them. One of them was the volume of fresh water necessary for cooling reactors, a topic familiar in middle eastern countries.

quote:

Originally posted by Aspen Hill Adventures:

quote:

Originally posted by Magine Enigam:
BTW, I have been interested in and done some research on a solar powered well for off grid.

I plan to make it happen on my rural property.

So far, from what I know, it doesn't seem that complicated.

I think the first step is find a well digger familiar with this.

There are lots of choices for these. I believe you can replace what you have as a grid powered pump with one of these in the same bore hole. You need to mind how deep you need to be to collect and pump water with the size pump needed- If you have a high vs low water table.

https://www.amazon.com/s?k=sol...b_sb_ss_ts-doa-p_5_8

WOW, Ann. Thanks for the info.

My first cousin is interested in this too. He's interested enough to help me with this project. He's good at figuring stuff like this out.

I had a guy over today to explain the project and consult, and potentially hire him. My first impression was that he didn't listen well. He would probably say the same about me, but I'm the one paying. We'll see.

I'm not well informed enough to comment.

I have no idea about the efficiency of it but I drive out to West Texas/Lubbock area regularly and there are a lot of the big windmill farms out there with windmills spinning like crazy because the wind does blow. Not just talking a couple of windmills....huge farms of them as far as the eye can see.

I dunno, it seems like some folks are making it work.

You bring up another thought.

Remember, I'm in the early learning stage with the water well, pump system thing.

The windmill well appears to be all mechanical

There is such a thing as wind power turbines which produce electricity. The electricity could be used to maintain a 12 to 48 volt DC battery bank with proper controller. And with inverter, DC to AC, power the pump in the well.

Solar panels also produce electricity which maintains the battery bank.

Once the water is in the storage holding tank (open for livestock, closed for household) it seems to me it's just a matter of pressurizing the tank for flow.

Here's a couple of videos:

https://youtu.be/iF0TcV4hw-E?si=Z6uIWuwshfk8krWs
How a Windmill Pumps Water

https://youtu.be/0dPahioJUzk?si=-b5_JNCN8b0n33Ui
DIY HOME-MADE WINDMILL. WATER PUMPING

Here's one example. There has to be others:
https://youtu.be/oppeu9fJzl4?si=HJUZxuXid-br486L
VEVOR Wind Turbine Generator will charge 12v or 24 v batteries