... a country where people often don't know right from wrong.

https://apnews.com/article/mex...2308a4989476435c3102

quote:

Originally posted by Bill/Oregon:
... a country where people often don't know right from wrong.

https://apnews.com/article/mex...2308a4989476435c3102

You mean Americans do??

Why the hell do you have to choose between Trump and Biden then?

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by Bill/Oregon:
... a country where people often don't know right from wrong.

https://apnews.com/article/mex...2308a4989476435c3102

You mean Americans do??

Why the hell do you have to choose between Trump and Biden then?

We choose because they are the ones who chose/forced themselves onto the ballot. Of course we are free to choose and write in someone/anyone else including you Saeed. But your point is a valid one.

quote:

Originally posted by ANTELOPEDUNDEE:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by Bill/Oregon:
... a country where people often don't know right from wrong.

https://apnews.com/article/mex...2308a4989476435c3102

You mean Americans do??

Why the hell do you have to choose between Trump and Biden then?

We choose because they are the ones who chose/forced themselves onto the ballot. Of course we are free to choose and write in someone/anyone else including you Saeed. But your point is a valid one.

I do not know, personally, a single American who doesn’t dislike both these idiots!

So why the choice??

Hopefully, when the Mexicans kicked the French out (162 years ago yesterday), they kept a guillotine...


.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by ANTELOPEDUNDEE:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by Bill/Oregon:
... a country where people often don't know right from wrong.

https://apnews.com/article/mex...2308a4989476435c3102

You mean Americans do??

Why the hell do you have to choose between Trump and Biden then?

We choose because they are the ones who chose/forced themselves onto the ballot. Of course we are free to choose and write in someone/anyone else including you Saeed. But your point is a valid one.

I do not know, personally, a single American who doesn’t dislike both these idiots!

So why the choice??

For one the incumbent is almost always the nominee giving them a shot at a second term. trump was impeached twice and was still the 2020 nominee as an incumbent so go figure there. They are all afraid of trump, but of the ones who ran against him apparently none had a better message. It's a sad state of affairs for sure.

quote:

Originally posted by ANTELOPEDUNDEE:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by Bill/Oregon:
... a country where people often don't know right from wrong.

https://apnews.com/article/mex...2308a4989476435c3102

You mean Americans do??

Why the hell do you have to choose between Trump and Biden then?

We choose because they are the ones who chose/forced themselves onto the ballot. Of course we are free to choose and write in someone/anyone else including you Saeed. But your point is a valid one.

Joe Biden won a Primary with the most candidates in modern history, then got 81 million votes, the most, by far, in American history. He also got the highest percentage of the vote by a challenger against an incumbent President since 1932.

Biden wasn't forced on anybody, that's Trump's style.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by ANTELOPEDUNDEE:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by Bill/Oregon:
... a country where people often don't know right from wrong.

https://apnews.com/article/mex...2308a4989476435c3102

You mean Americans do??

Why the hell do you have to choose between Trump and Biden then?

We choose because they are the ones who chose/forced themselves onto the ballot. Of course we are free to choose and write in someone/anyone else including you Saeed. But your point is a valid one.

I do not know, personally, a single American who doesn’t dislike both these idiots!

So why the choice??

The Americans you know "personally" tend to value tax breaks above all else; they "dislike" Trump because he's crude and vulgar but they'll support him, if quietly, to line their pockets.

Someone pointed out that we have murder in the U.S., too, so what's the big deal? Good point. All countries have murder. In Mexico they will murder three guys for their truck tires. In Chicago, they will murder a kid for his Air Jordans. I'd rather go to Mexico, frankly.

quote:

Originally posted by Jefffive:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by ANTELOPEDUNDEE:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by Bill/Oregon:
... a country where people often don't know right from wrong.

https://apnews.com/article/mex...2308a4989476435c3102

You mean Americans do??

Why the hell do you have to choose between Trump and Biden then?

We choose because they are the ones who chose/forced themselves onto the ballot. Of course we are free to choose and write in someone/anyone else including you Saeed. But your point is a valid one.

I do not know, personally, a single American who doesn’t dislike both these idiots!

So why the choice??

The Americans you know "personally" tend to value tax breaks above all else;

Yes taxes are criminal. I will go on record that I hate the IRS.

I guess you don't use any public services then. Don't drive on highways, fly, use public schools, and so on.

Or maybe you think all that stuff comes free.

Guys like you kill me. Laughable.

quote:

Originally posted by RolandtheHeadless:
I guess you don't use any public services then. Don't drive on highways, fly, use public schools, and so on.

Or maybe you think all that stuff comes free.

Guys like you kill me. Laughable.

we've known for decades that we are really underinvesting in infrastructure

quote:

Summary. Federal spending on highways (or, synonymously, roads) totaled $52 billion in 2022

https://www.cbo.gov/publicatio...20capital%20projects.

that's a really interesting link, i suggest at least skimming it

Congress spent more LAST WEEK, totally unfunded, to Ukraine -

quote:

The federal government spends nearly $79 billion annually on primary and secondary education programs.

https://www.newamerica.org/edu...ing/federal-funding/

Public services, most roads, most schools, 50% of highway funds, are funded from local taxes

quote:

Congress spent more LAST WEEK, totally unfunded, to Ukraine -

Now my advice for those who die
Declare the pennies on your eyes

~ George Harrison ~ 1966


.

quote:

Yes taxes are criminal. I will go on record that I hate the IRS.

So..how do you suggest financing the operations of a country?

Do you advocate the nationalization of all businesses and resources? That would be the only alternative.

quote:

Originally posted by Tumbleweed:

quote:

Yes taxes are criminal. I will go on record that I hate the IRS.

So..how do you suggest financing the operations of a country?

Do you advocate the nationalization of all businesses and resources? That would be the only alternative.

Do you know when and how income tax started? worth a google.

Why does it make a difference why and how income tax started? I thought the ancient Egyptians started it.

Other tax systems have been tried or are available. The income tax is the fairest, least regressive means we've tried.

The ultimate answer: you can't get taxes from the poor, i.e., people without money. A government should be practical, not philosophical or idealistic.

Equal taxes from everybody is idealistic.

Okay, so I know this is probably in the realm of "Capt. Obvious", but that's never stopped me before, lol, so...

My bone of contention has always been, and realistically will always be, the waste.

The lack of oversight leading to $1000 toilet seats and left-handed hammers for the Air Force, and shrimp on a treadmill come to mind.

Pork barrel spending, ugh, now there's a pig I'd gladly kick in the gonads.

The whole representation part, that goes back to the Magna Carta.

But how to realistically police this monster that we now have is beyond me.

Maybe we should look in the mirror and admit we've outgrown our britches, that it's not the spoon that's making us fat, but the excess, the excess which ironically could be spent on the social safety net for example. The fact so many Americans are living on the streets today in a nation as great as this, boggles the mind as our gracious host Saeed would say.


.

quote:

Originally posted by RolandtheHeadless:
Why does it make a difference why and how income tax started? I thought the ancient Egyptians started it.

Other tax systems have been tried or are available. The income tax is the fairest, least regressive means we've tried.

The ultimate answer: you can't get taxes from the poor, i.e., people without money. A government should be practical, not philosophical or idealistic.

Equal taxes from everybody is idealistic.

Well, there is a Constitutional Amendment making Income Tax the law of the land. Thus, 2/3rds of the states agreed. These anti-government types need to think about that. I pay a lot in taxes. I would tax stock valuation over a certain amount. We pay property taxes which are based on value assessed.

quote:

Originally posted by Tumbleweed:

quote:

Yes taxes are criminal. I will go on record that I hate the IRS.

So..how do you suggest financing the operations of a country?

Do you advocate the nationalization of all businesses and resources? That would be the only alternative.

It's weird.. i mean, like, the country, with few exceptions, managed just fine on the incomes listed in the Constitution - and the original income tax was only supposed to hit the super rich --

your "only alternative" shows a lack of imagination ..

quote:

Originally posted by RolandtheHeadless:
Why does it make a difference why and how income tax started? I thought the ancient Egyptians started it.

Other tax systems have been tried or are available. The income tax is the fairest, least regressive means we've tried.

The ultimate answer: you can't get taxes from the poor, i.e., people without money. A government should be practical, not philosophical or idealistic.

Equal taxes from everybody is idealistic.

Equal tax RATE, however, is actually fair ...

but, seriously, why should bill gates pay more to be a citizen-free-from-tax-jail more than you?

i am beginning to take the "headless" part seriously

Most of the time those of us who identify as “hard conservative” tell us the world is not fair.

I do not need someone hovering around the poverty line paying more to make it fair.

I would also like to see parents have to save the earned income tax credit they get for their children for their children in some sort of IRA that pays out at 18.

You could pay the tuition to the University of Kentucky if you just saved the tax refund for having kids.

quote:

Originally posted by Thomas "Ty" Beaham:
Okay, so I know this is probably in the realm of "Capt. Obvious", but that's never stopped me before, lol, so...

My bone of contention has always been, and realistically will always be, the waste.

The lack of oversight leading to $1000 toilet seats and left-handed hammers for the Air Force, and shrimp on a treadmill come to mind.

Pork barrel spending, ugh, now there's a pig I'd gladly kick in the gonads.

The whole representation part, that goes back to the Magna Carta.

But how to realistically police this monster that we now have is beyond me.

Maybe we should look in the mirror and admit we've outgrown our britches, that it's not the spoon that's making us fat, but the excess, the excess which ironically could be spent on the social safety net for example. The fact so many Americans are living on the streets today in a nation as great as this, boggles the mind as our gracious host Saeed would say.


.

And how is this any different than a large corporation? Same thing, they start out lean and efficient, then grow into wasteful giants.

We have 330 million people, and have both the largest economy and the largest military in the world. I see waste as inevitable as the sunrise tomorrow. Do I like it? No, but it won't change in our lifetimes.

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:

quote:

Originally posted by RolandtheHeadless:
Why does it make a difference why and how income tax started? I thought the ancient Egyptians started it.

Other tax systems have been tried or are available. The income tax is the fairest, least regressive means we've tried.

The ultimate answer: you can't get taxes from the poor, i.e., people without money. A government should be practical, not philosophical or idealistic.

Equal taxes from everybody is idealistic.

Equal tax RATE, however, is actually fair ...

but, seriously, why should bill gates pay more to be a citizen-free-from-tax-jail more than you?

i am beginning to take the "headless" part seriously

The top tax rate is almost 1/2 of what it was in 1980, the wealthy in this country are doing just fine. Especially when you consider that most do not pay anywhere near the rates that a working person would because most of that wealth is acquired through investments.

I'm not buying the flat tax story anymore than the flat earth story.

quote:

Originally posted by RolandtheHeadless:
Why does it make a difference why and how income tax started? I thought the ancient Egyptians started it.

Other tax systems have been tried or are available. The income tax is the fairest, least regressive means we've tried.

The ultimate answer: you can't get taxes from the poor, i.e., people without money. A government should be practical, not philosophical or idealistic.

Equal taxes from everybody is idealistic.

I have always thought history matters very much but hey im a dreamer. as far as not being able to get taxes from the poor, ok great but dont take more from me. Ive been blessed and I make what many would consider alot of money. at this point im a 50/50 partner with the government. That to me is criminal. But hey Biden says based on annual income im wealthy so lets just run it up my ass. I do concede these are first world problems. I would not care to trade with someone at the poverty line. All I am saying is that maybe Forbes had it right.

Maybe you can explain why ancient Egyptian history, as fascinating as it is, has much to do with the modern US tax system. Yes, history can matter much; but it's often misused or misrepresented.

Republicans always say "don't take more from me," but then they always want more government services and spending. Never do they cut overall spending. The result: we're digging further into debt.

The Dems always want to spend and tax more...but I don't see them pretending otherwise.

The income tax is the fairest, least regressive tax there is?

Ha.

While you can argue fairness, I really don't get how a progressive rate tax is fair.

If everyone paid the same rate, maybe there would be a bit more objection to the free spending ways.

I get that the repubs constantly talk tax cuts but then balk at spending cuts on "their" priorities.

We should decide what is fair... and make it a flat rate. No carve outs because you have kids or get married. No carve outs because you are going along with green energy. No carve outs because you are saving for your retirement. No carve outs because you can hide your income as capital gains. End crony capitalism.

The income tax was initially put in place during the civil war, and ended up being delayed but put into SCOTUS finally and found unconstitutional. They decided that they had to do it anyhow and passed an amendment to do so.

Note that while they used to have a lot more brackets and a lot higher rates... NO ONE paid those top rates. Pretty much everything was able to be either deducted or credited. We have now reduced the brackets, but not increased the income required to be in them.

And $5 from 1,000,000 people is a lot more money that $5,000 from 100 people.

Over half of the citizens of this country have no income tax liability. That's absurd if its about generation of money to pay for the government in a fair manner, or do only the top half get a benefit from the government?

I used to support a flat tax, but no longer believe it's fair. Everyone should have to pay some taxes, to have skin in the game, but a ten percent rate, let's say, would not have equal impact.

A guy making a million a year would pay one-hundred thousand in taxes. Leaving him $900,000 in disposable income.

Someone making $100,000 would pay ten thousand in taxes. Has ninety grand in disposable income.

But someone making just $10,000 would, according to this scheme, pay one grand and have only nine grand to live on.

At some point the disparity in living standard becomes indefensible. One does not need 900k per year to live very well. One does need more than nine grand to live on. My own sense of fairness doesn't accept a flat tax.

quote:

Originally posted by RolandtheHeadless:
I used to support a flat tax, but no longer believe it's fair. Everyone should have to pay some taxes, to have skin in the game, but a ten percent rate, let's say, would not have equal impact.

A guy making a million a year would pay one-hundred thousand in taxes. Leaving him $900,000 in disposable income.

Someone making $100,000 would pay ten thousand in taxes. Has ninety grand in disposable income.

But someone making just $10,000 would, according to this scheme, pay one grand and have only nine grand to live on.

At some point the disparity in living standard becomes indefensible. One does not need 900k per year to live very well. One does need more than nine grand to live on. My own sense of fairness doesn't accept a flat tax.

Why would it be my fault that he is only capable of making $10k? If I earned it legally, why not blow $900k a year if i so choose? I will never understand how flat is anything other than equal.

Fault has nothing to do with it. As I said, it's a matter of practicality, not what you think is fair.

You can't get taxes from people who don't have money.

That means government has to get most taxes from the wealthy and middle class.

quote:

Originally posted by RolandtheHeadless:
Fault has nothing to do with it. As I said, it's a matter of practicality, not what you think is fair.

You can't get taxes from people who don't have money.

That means government has to get most taxes from the wealthy and middle class.

If I cant pay my power bill should they take it from you? Maybe the government needs to live within its means like we all do