I tried to explain this to you with case law in the original thread.

A child so young by Common Law and Statutory Law does not permit children so young to be prosecuted juvenile system or adult.

We need a Federal Law requiring responsible precautions be taken to secure firearms with children in the home.

https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2023/0...o-charges/index.html

That is why, as I highlighted on the old thread, why the press release spoke of services for the child and not punishment.

It use to be in KY that any crime committed by a juve over 12 that used a firearm in a crime hit sent to adult Court.
JY changed that in 2020 to remove that mandatory language and made transfer up to the Judge.

The Legislatures across the United States are lessening and extending Grace to minors of all ages.

I cannot transfer a 17 year old to Circuit Court for 2nd Degree Carjacking bc it is a Class C Felony, and a Class C alone does not qualify for transfer.

Guess how long he can serve in Juve detention-2 months because he turns 18 in 2 months. After 2 months, the KY Supreme Court has ruled a juvenile who she’s out of Juve detention cannot serve time in adult custody.

I agree w the principles of not permitting 6 year olds to be charged. However, I needed to vent about the system as a whole.

You are not going to be able to pass a meaningful law to secure firearms in a home with children anymore than you can pass a meaningful law to secure cars, knives, rat poison or a boat.

You can incentivize. Encourage the NRA to return to public education, public health and public safety with gun safety/ gun security programs. Make buying gun safes and gun locks a tax deduction like a child credit. The list goes on.

Punishing an adult after the fact for the missuse or accident of a little kid with a gun is retarded stupid.

I may not be able to get the votes, but I could write a meaningful law.

This is not an accident. It is very much a preventable event. Even with reasonable precautions some is going to happen. That we must accept, but to leave no requirement to secure allowing unfettered acres to firearms by juvenile la is asking for this.

Kids commit crime with guns and suicides with guns from mom and dad.

quote:

Originally posted by Scott King:
You are not going to be able to pass a meaningful law to secure firearms in a home with children anymore than you can pass a meaningful law to secure cars, knives, rat poison or a boat.

You can incentivize. Encourage the NRA to return to public education, public health and public safety with gun safety/ gun security programs. Make buying gun safes and gun locks a tax deduction like a child credit. The list goes on.

Punishing an adult after the fact for the missuse or accident of a little kid with a gun is retarded stupid.

Well said! We do t need any more knee kerk , feel good laws!!!!


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We do not need people leaving guns unsecured around children.

quote:

Originally posted by JTEX:

quote:

Originally posted by Scott King:
You are not going to be able to pass a meaningful law to secure firearms in a home with children anymore than you can pass a meaningful law to secure cars, knives, rat poison or a boat.

You can incentivize. Encourage the NRA to return to public education, public health and public safety with gun safety/ gun security programs. Make buying gun safes and gun locks a tax deduction like a child credit. The list goes on.

Punishing an adult after the fact for the missuse or accident of a little kid with a gun is retarded stupid.

Well said! We do t need any more knee kerk , feel good laws!!!!


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It's already the law in Texas.

Texas Penal Code Sec. 46.13:

A person commits an offense if a child gains access to a readily dischargeable firearm and the person with criminal negligence: failed to secure the firearm; or. left the firearm in a place to which the person knew or should have known the child would gain access.

+1 LHeym500.

If you leave your firearms unsecured regardless if there are children in the mix you are acting irresponsibly.

Imagine coming home with your family after an evening out at the movies and being shot by
an intruder, with your own gun...


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Texas’ law makes sense.

But passing a law requiring a guy like me who’s most likely irresponsible accessor to a firearm is a Labrador retriever makes little sense. A bedside gun in a drawer that you lock up if you have company is logical. Demanding that I buy a mini safe for safety reasons is silly- and if someone breaks in and uses the gun it’s not my legal responsibility (the front door is locked and the dog is there…)

For the record, most of my guns are locked away and unloaded, but the defense pieces are loaded- an unloaded gun is just a bad club.

Writing the law to inconvenience the folks it doesn’t really apply to to try and make it easier to charge the negligent seems improper.

I would restrict the law to those with minor children in the home. Want to leave your guns and ammo accessible to children? So be it. However, you do so at your own peril. Dais minor uses the firearm on self and others, you bought criminal liability.

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:
I would restrict the law to those with minor children in the home. Want to leave your guns and ammo accessible to children? So be it. However, you do so at your own peril. Dais minor uses the firearm on self and others, you bought criminal liability.

Unfortunately the folks writing these bills have an agenda different than reducing accidental shootings by kids.

Frankly, a buddy of mine when I was in grade school and I went to each others houses regularly.

My folks let me keep my gun in my closet, and my dad kept his in his closet…

The only time my guns came out was when we went shooting/hunting or to clean them.

My buddy’s dad had a fancy gun safe.

My buddy had figured out the combination well before he was supposedly allowed access (actually, once his dad gave him the combination he quit doing this)

We would take out his gun collection, look at it, and dry fire them all the time. (Of course his collection was much more interesting than my family’s- he had pistols and war bringbacks and the holy of Holies, a Garand with a bayonet! I don’t know how many times we loaded it just to hear the ping the thing made when the clip went out… with live ammo… dumb. No one ever got shot or the gun pointed at people, but still not smart.

A lockable storage isn’t necessarily going to prevent access.

The goal is making firearms harder to own and put more roadblocks in place. Not to have responsibility and training.

Government is not bad. This need addressed nationally.

We have a Congress. It is their jobs to write and pass legislation permitted by the Constitution, the Amendments, and Fed Caselaw.

They is the way it works.

quote:

Originally posted by Thomas "Ty" Beaham:
+1 LHeym500.

If you leave your firearms unsecured regardless if there are children in the mix you are acting irresponsibly.

Imagine coming home with your family after an evening out at the movies and being shot by
an intruder, with your own gun...


.

But a new law will make no difference, that's the point.

I locked up all mine a while ago. I can't stand the idea of an accident in my home. Laws have nothing to do with my motivation.

Yes it would. It would ace parents on notice to secure firearms or face criminal sanction. This, insuring less firearms are used by children to commit crimes and suicide.

Kids get guns from home.

If Laws have nothing to do w motivation. Why do you pay taxes, or a 200 hundred other things you do or don’t do.

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:
Yes it would. It would ace parents on notice to secure firearms or face criminal sanction. This, insuring less firearms are used by children to commit crimes and suicide.

Kids get guns from home.

If Laws have nothing to do w motivation. Why do you pay taxes, or a 200 hundred other things you do or don’t do.

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/homicide.htm

Come on Man.

Being illegal stops murder?

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:
I would restrict the law to those with minor children in the home. Want to leave your guns and ammo accessible to children? So be it. However, you do so at your own peril. Dais minor uses the firearm on self and others, you bought criminal liability.

Unfortunately the folks writing these bills have an agenda different than reducing accidental shootings by kids.

Frankly, a buddy of mine when I was in grade school and I went to each others houses regularly.

My folks let me keep my gun in my closet, and my dad kept his in his closet…

The only time my guns came out was when we went shooting/hunting or to clean them.

My buddy’s dad had a fancy gun safe.

My buddy had figured out the combination well before he was supposedly allowed access (actually, once his dad gave him the combination he quit doing this)

We would take out his gun collection, look at it, and dry fire them all the time. (Of course his collection was much more interesting than my family’s- he had pistols and war bringbacks and the holy of Holies, a Garand with a bayonet! I don’t know how many times we loaded it just to hear the ping the thing made when the clip went out… with live ammo… dumb. No one ever got shot or the gun pointed at people, but still not smart.

A lockable storage isn’t necessarily going to prevent access.

The goal is making firearms harder to own and put more roadblocks in place. Not to have responsibility and training.

Thank you kindly for sharing. I could tell similar.

We live in a world of risks. We can’t write a law to mitigate every risk in life. And even if we could…who in Sam Hill would want to live in such a world.

Give me freedom and I will accept the risks.

quote:

Originally posted by Scott King:

quote:

Originally posted by Thomas "Ty" Beaham:
+1 LHeym500.

If you leave your firearms unsecured regardless if there are children in the mix you are acting irresponsibly.

Imagine coming home with your family after an evening out at the movies and being shot by
an intruder, with your own gun...


.

But a new law will make no difference, that's the point.

I locked up all mine a while ago. I can't stand the idea of an accident in my home. Laws have nothing to do with my motivation.

Yes Scott, i understand this discussion in part revolves around new laws.

I should have made myself clear, in that I was replying directly to LHeym500's post immediately preceeding mine, in which he stated only, "We do not need people leaving guns unsecured around children."

I agreed, and it appears we can all agree on that.

But, I was speaking strictly in terms of personal responsibility, and offered a plausible scenario that had nothing to do with accidents or suicide, in which the lack of responsible firearms ownership could cost you, or a loved one their life.

I won't speak for anyone else, but I'm not sure how I could live with myself for the rest of my life knowing I cost my Grandmother or Granddaughter their life because I was either lackadaisical,
too lazy to take 60 seconds to move that side arm from my bedstand to the safe before we left the house for the movie theater, or too trusting in the ability of my dog to protect my bedstand while we were out.


.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:
I would restrict the law to those with minor children in the home. Want to leave your guns and ammo accessible to children? So be it. However, you do so at your own peril. Dais minor uses the firearm on self and others, you bought criminal liability.

Unfortunately the folks writing these bills have an agenda different than reducing accidental shootings by kids.

Frankly, a buddy of mine when I was in grade school and I went to each others houses regularly.

My folks let me keep my gun in my closet, and my dad kept his in his closet…

The only time my guns came out was when we went shooting/hunting or to clean them.

My buddy’s dad had a fancy gun safe.

My buddy had figured out the combination well before he was supposedly allowed access (actually, once his dad gave him the combination he quit doing this)

We would take out his gun collection, look at it, and dry fire them all the time. (Of course his collection was much more interesting than my family’s- he had pistols and war bringbacks and the holy of Holies, a Garand with a bayonet! I don’t know how many times we loaded it just to hear the ping the thing made when the clip went out… with live ammo… dumb. No one ever got shot or the gun pointed at people, but still not smart.

A lockable storage isn’t necessarily going to prevent access.

The goal is making firearms harder to own and put more roadblocks in place. Not to have responsibility and training.

Thank you kindly for sharing. I could tell similar.

We live in a world of risks. We can’t write a law to mitigate every risk in life. And even if we could…who in Sam Hill would want to live in such a world.

Give me freedom and I will accept the risks.

Requiring parents to take reasonable precautions is a marginal burden compared to the risk. Hardly, trying to remove all risk from life.

quote:

Originally posted by Thomas "Ty" Beaham:

quote:

Originally posted by Scott King:

quote:

Originally posted by Thomas "Ty" Beaham:
+1 LHeym500.

If you leave your firearms unsecured regardless if there are children in the mix you are acting irresponsibly.

Imagine coming home with your family after an evening out at the movies and being shot by
an intruder, with your own gun...


.

But a new law will make no difference, that's the point.

I locked up all mine a while ago. I can't stand the idea of an accident in my home. Laws have nothing to do with my motivation.

Yes Scott, i understand this discussion in part revolves around new laws.

I should have made myself clear, in that I was replying directly to LHeym500's post immediately preceeding mine, in which he stated only, that, "We do not need people leaving guns unsecured around children."

I agreed, and it appears we can all agree on that.

But, I was speaking strictly in terms of personal responsibility, and offered a plausible scenario that had nothing to do with accidents or suicide, in which the lack of responsible firearms ownership could cost you, or a loved one their life.

I won't speak for anyone else, but I'm not sure how I could live with myself for the rest of my life knowing I cost my Grandmother or Granddaughter their life because I was either lackadaisical,
too lazy to take 60 seconds to move that side arm from my bedstand to the safe before we left the house for the movie theater, or too trusting in the ability of my dog to protect my bedstand.


.

Just what you mentioned is enough to give us wrinkles and gray hair. If my daughter dies at my hand, unintentionally or not, I go with her.

Heym is the problem. "There otta be a law!!!".

Otta be a law gave us The Patriot Act, Faith Based Initiative and Obamacare.

Otta be a law gave us The Assault Weapons Ban, Prohibition and the ATF.

What we "otta ", is give Americans the encouragement and incentive to do the right thing. We otta use a carrot and not a stick. Tobacco and soft drink consumption is way down nationally because Americans were led to understand that they both are killers.

Gun safety and security is easy to promote, demonstrate, encourage, and assist.

How big a dick do you really have to be to think that punishing the parent of the child that did something monstrous with a gun will make things better? The parent isn't already in Hell? Their life or week can get any worse?

Vaccines don't have to be criminalized. The demonstrable good and value of vaccination can be demonstrated and the parents line up their babies for the shots. I did with mine.

That's how it works, that's what works.

Considering we are a nation of laws and despite what you say laws affect your behavior, I stay on what I have said.

You can not legislate personal responsibility, and personal responsibility is the keystone.

Without it, societally we're back to the stone age. Laws or no laws.


.

We legislate personal responsibility all the time. That is called capability.

There ought to be a law is why in KY killing children intentionally is about to be death penalty eligible. Currently, the max sentence is 25-life parole eligible.

Glad to have a little something to do with that.

Don’t do x or loss tote civil liberties, fines, and/or incarnation.

Personal responsibility is about all we legislate.

A good example is you text, drive, and kill someone you just bought yourself a homicide conviction. Or drunk driving.

We legislate personal responsibility all the time. We also should do so.

Hard to fathom that, that crime isn't already death penalty eligible...

Nice work young man! Kudos.


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It was not. Death Penalty has to meet exigent circumstances to satisfy the Fed Supreme Court )one of many things). States get to define exigent circumstances. I am sure a state could go too far in defining exigent circumstances. Louisiana did in allowing death for rape without homicide.

To kill me, a public official, was an exigent circumstance. However, a child was not.

KY still has a state court imposed moratorium on death penalty. I am actually opposed to the death penalty. Yet, if we are going to have the statute children need to be in the list.

Until this outa be a law, I could not look at a parent of a murdered child and tell them, “ This murder will never get parole.” Now, they qualify for death or real life.

Oh, and Dems voted for it too.

Non-partisan.

As it should be. Again, kudos.


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Another example of us legislating personal responsibility is child support.

A 1/4 of my jail population is due to non/payment of child support. In KY the prosecutor’s office brings child support enforcement when the child is getting state benefits. The state recoups that money from the child support.

quote:

KY killing children intentionally is about to be death penalty eligible.

How about the ones who are over 60 days old securely living in their mothers womb?

quote:

Originally posted by Scott King:

quote:

Originally posted by Thomas "Ty" Beaham:
+1 LHeym500.

If you leave your firearms unsecured regardless if there are children in the mix you are acting irresponsibly.

Imagine coming home with your family after an evening out at the movies and being shot by
an intruder, with your own gun...


.

But a new law will make no difference, that's the point.

I locked up all mine a while ago. I can't stand the idea of an accident in my home. Laws have nothing to do with my motivation.

This is correct...the only people likely to comply with such a law are those that secure their firearms from children already. When I had kids in the house, I locked up the bedside table Glock in the safe every single morning. Not because of the laws here in Texas but because I was concerned about one of my kids finding the weapon. Same reason I never stored or carried a weapon with one in the chamber. I figured neither of my kids could operate the slide if they somehow got their hands on the weapon. I actually used my Browning H-Power as the bedside pistol for years for that reason.....it was the hardest to cycle. It's also why I would never keep any sort of loaded revolver around. I didn't want a weapon that all you had to do was pull the trigger.

The point is that if you're not already thinking about how to ensure that your children don't get ahold of your loaded weapon, a law isn't going to solve that problem.

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:
Another example of us legislating personal responsibility is child support.

A 1/4 of my jail population is due to non/payment of child support. In KY the prosecutor’s office brings child support enforcement when the child is getting state benefits. The state recoups that money from the child support.

Personal responsibility in this example began before conception.

If you can't feed 'em, don't breed 'em.

Do we legislate abstinence?

Do we legislate mandatory contraceptives? Because THAT is the preventative measure.

Sterilization is obviously the next logical step after mandatory contraceptives, yes?

Would you be good with that?

I guess we will have to agree to disagree regarding personal responsibility.


.

I just prefer to teach my kids, responsibility, gun safety, gun handling technique, and marksmanship.

We live in the country and sometimes my 13 yo need his .22 rifle or .410 shotgun when doing chore work.

Me too.

I also taught them to put tools back where they belong when they were done using them.

Number one, so you will know exactly where they are the next time you need them.
Personal experience dictates I may need them in a hurry.

And, number two, because if you leave tools laying around, somebody or something might get hurt or damaged.


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