The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Guns, Politics, Gunsmithing & Reloading The Political Forum Religion is the greatest scourge humans have ever inflicted on themselvesGo | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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- Countless examples in human history of mass murder, rape, pillaging, and other atrocities committed in the name of religion. Every major religion can claim its share of inhuman acts committed in its name. Religion turns people into monsters. - Throughout history every religious-based government, i.e. theocracy is characterized by oppression and intolerance. - In a dark way, religion twists people, distorts their ethics and morality. For instance, people infected with the religion virus (any of its variants) will judge and demean people who aren't so infected. The infected do good not for its own sake or the sake of humanity, but to avoid eternal punishment from the Magic Man in the sky. - Religion takes an enormous toll on human emotion and relationships. Spouses, even whole families, will divorce each other over religious differences. - Indulging religion costs society a lot of resources, energy, and productivity. Hoping to save their souls, people give enormous amounts of money to institutions that do little more than preach the same mythos the infected have all heard from childhood. Pass the collection plate. Overall, religion hurts humanity more than helps us. My comments apply to all religions, not just one or two. Debate? | ||
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What? You want to deny holy, sacred Catholic priests the right to rape little boys? You want to deny top ranked Mormons the right to accumulate billions of dollars from their tremendously blessed You want to deny Kenneth Copeland and Joel Osteen the right to multiple mansions, private jets and yachts while bilking widows out of their savings? You want Muslim women to run around without bags over them, and deny their male family members the right to behead them? You MONSTER! I’m telling Donald Trump on you, he was sent by God just to clean up scum like you and he knows Jesus’ agenda better than Jesus himself. You’re going straight to hell, son! | |||
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I had a text conversation with a former coworker yesterday. I mentioned that I’m an atheist; something I generally keep to myself. She was shocked. I told her that I try lead a good life and be a good person. She wanted know why. Yes, why I would be a good person without a magic sky fairy to approve. Which is why I generally keep my beliefs to myself. | |||
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Are there absolutes in the world? Where does morality and its basis emanate from? | |||
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God and morality exists outside of organized religion which regardless of the denomination. I see more and more organized religion as power for man’s sake. I always thought that way about Catholicism. When religion can be used by Bluefish without scripture anchor in the New Testament to call gay people “ disgusting perverts” and “fags,” it is little wonder folks have lost faith in the organization of religion in the USA. Protestants are no longer a majority. https://www.pewresearch.org/re...position-of-the-u-s/ | |||
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I think morality originated in necessity. But we are led to believe it was religion that brought it about. Funny thing is, in every religion, there so many contradictions, which ones do you believe? Yesterday I had a visit with a friend I have not see for sometime. He was born a Christian, but he basically does not believe in any religion. Straight forward guy. He said he stopped believing once he realized he could think for himself. And see the past misery of religion. And the misery being brought on totally innocent people today. Whether by nature, or humans. He asks, if there is really was a benevolent god, why is allowing it? | |||
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You've mentioned your son's religion in some detail in this forum so I feel no hesitancy to ask you; what is it about your son you find damnable? You are disappointed in your son why? You find your son lesser because? You've told him so? Your son is aware of your disapproval of him? Sorry, I don't think your boy is the problem. His religion, church, faith generally Religion globally, isn't destructive. Saeed is Muslim so he's less than how? DRG is Jewish so hes less than how? Mother Theresa was Catholic, I go to Mass on Sunday and my six year old is Baptized Catholic, what's our problem? Would you say the Dali Llama and China are/ would be better off Buddhist/ faithful or Communist? M.E. has been cross with his sister and her religion at length, publicly here. My bet would be that M.E's sister genuinely loves him, cares about him, works physically for his well being and wishes/ prays for his every sucess. How is it Saeed as a Muslim isn't a bomber, DRG as a Hebrew isn't what ever they malign them with, and my Catholic six year old isn't a pedophile? We all suspect Doc Lane is a good father and husband, loyal son, and most likely an ethical vet and business man. Assuming Doc Lane is Southern Baptist, he'd actually improve at any of the above if he were an atheist how? Religion is not the problem, it's what folks do with it. Religion wasn't evil, Jim Jones was. religion wasn't evil, Dave Koresh was. How exactly do we espouse the idea that, "guns dont kill people, people kill people!" and then assert that the religious book or writings laying there on the coffee table or pulpit are responsible for mankind's failing rather than mankind being responsible for itself. Who here admires Tumbleweeds snide atheism? Come on now, show of hands! Who here read Tumbleweeds post about and said, " yeah man! I wanna sound just like that guy!" Lofty high browed prose from the Albertan. Roland, id think you wanna see your kid and spouse after this life. If you are not prepared and happy to say adios forever in the next twenty years or so, you may wanna consider some religion. | |||
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Does anyone worship Greek, Roman or Egyptian gods anymore? ~Ann   | |||
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Religion is also a great civilizer of man. Like anything that involves man, it is either elevated or dragged down by the people involved. If you think that evil people would have been any less evil if religion were not involved, I think you would be mistaken. IMO, God gave man free will. Its both his greatest gift and our greatest scourge. | |||
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One of my friends was raised Moslem, married a Boston Irish woman. Their children were raised Catholic; he told me that children need a moral anchor and that was what was at hand. I do not know if he still harbors Islamic beliefs in his own soul. He is a good man, and their children are excellent people. I can't find it on the internet now, but I think I remember reading that a Native American chief said "...I do not know if we all worship the same god, but we all pray to the same Creator...". TomP Our country, right or wrong. When right, to be kept right, when wrong to be put right. Carl Schurz (1829 - 1906) | |||
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Talking about religion is a waste of time. I was raised Southern Baptist. Didn't like it. I like the way Catholics do things. It's more positive. -Every damn thing is your own fault if you are any good. | |||
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The way Catholics deal with little boys??  | |||
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As opposed to talking about politics? | |||
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Politics is the new religion. | |||
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Let's put aside the " Catholic priests did this, Muslims did this arguments for a moment. We are all humans and bring our failures with us. Can anyone honestly argue that a belief in an all seeing GOD that will mete out punishment for our misdeeds is a bad thing? | |||
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The point is he doesn’t! Endless wars, where basically innocents suffer. Natural disasters. Who controls these?? | |||
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Saeed, your reasoning is short term. I wish God's punishment would come quicker as well, but our wishes are trivial when when viewed in the context of eternity. It's like saying that there's no threat of this chemical causing cancer because I was exposed to it last month and I didn't get cancer yet. | |||
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Good point. -Every damn thing is your own fault if you are any good. | |||
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How about religion conflated with politics?  XXX "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis Per my far-right friend: "reality sucks" FYI - if you ID as "conservative" nowadays, Trump owns you. | |||
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This post is a good example of the difference in Reasoning and Rationalizing. At least 788 got one thing right - Saeed is reasoning. This is why the premise of you can't argue with a religious person is true. At least it's difficult because they default to rationalization every time, and mistaken it for reasoning - or logic - or reality - or perhaps critical thinking. Not only do religious people conflate reality with belief, they conflate lots of stuff. Those who can sort it out, can't help them, nor argue entirely on their level, or the flip-side. But it is possible to understand them - through reasoning. I think it's even possible to empathize with them but only if one can keep the shared feelings of empathy separate from reason - different boxes. That's difficult. https://wikidiff.com/rationalization/reason As nouns the difference between rationalization and reason is that rationalization is the process, or result of rationalizing while reason is a cause. As a verb reason is to exercise the rational faculty; to deduce inferences from premises; to perform the process of deduction or of induction; to ratiocinate; to reach conclusions by a systematic comparison of facts. Another: Reasoning is starting from the things you believe, making an argument, and drawing whatever conclusion that argument takes you to. Rationalizing is starting from your conclusion, then figuring out what beliefs you need to have and what arguments you need to make to draw that conclusion. Reasoning is logical thinking. XXX "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis Per my far-right friend: "reality sucks" FYI - if you ID as "conservative" nowadays, Trump owns you. | |||
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An Israeli general said, about, Israeli Jewish terrorists. “You cannot argue with some who thinks he is getting his instructions from God!” | |||
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You can use a hammer and nails to crucify a person or build a house. | |||
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It’s the some corrupted usually politicians and some local church leaders who abuse religion Religion led civilization forward and sometimes thanks to those bad leaders backwards But blaming religions on bad behavior is nuts as opposite, religions preach to people to be good | |||
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If religion didn't control the minds and bodies of people it wouldn't be religion. It's all about control and submission. It's NOT about free will at all. Thus, religion IS bad behavior. XXX "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis Per my far-right friend: "reality sucks" FYI - if you ID as "conservative" nowadays, Trump owns you. | |||
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Its not religion, its intolerance and trying to force others to act how you want. Religion has been a major tool for that, but so has politics. | |||
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The secular constitution and rule of law could be said to be a form of intolerance and trying to force others to do right according to the social contract. It could be deemed a tool. And it involves politics in the Aristotle sense. Next time you see a stop sign, think Aristotle did that.  Or look it up in the Bible.Religion is not the same in its formation, particularly its fomentation; application, affect and effect. XXX "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis Per my far-right friend: "reality sucks" FYI - if you ID as "conservative" nowadays, Trump owns you. | |||
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Religion also does a lot of good and brings a lot off comfort to people the world over. I believe in God, I try to follow Christian principals in the way I treat others and live my life. I have very little tolerance for those who claim to be christian and yet flout its most basic principals using cherry picked lines/verses to justify their actions. | |||
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Okay - religion is both good and bad.  Inform me please as to how the 1/6 seditious insurrectionists, claiming to be patriots, some wrapped in flags and much prayer then and now, reconciles with good? One good question is -- would the event on 1/6 have happened if not for the religious underpinnings? On a scale of 1 to 10, which has resulted in good more often than not - the secular constitution, based on Locke's, Jefferson, and other's philosophy, going back to Aristotle, Plato, Socrates, or the Bible? BTW Aristotle lived 384 BC – 322 BC. "Socrates Socrates is considered by many to be the founding father of Western philosophy—as well as one of the most enigmatic figures of ancient history." "Thales of Miletus was a Greek philosopher and one of the seven sages of antiquity. Aristotle considered him to be the first philosopher and his philosophical predecessor. Today, Thales is widely accepted as the first philosopher in the Western tradition." Aristotle studied all the ancient Greek philosophers, including Plato. "1787 Written in 1787, ratified in 1788, and in operation since 1789, the United States Constitution is the world's longest surviving written charter of government. Its first three words – “We The People” – affirm that the government of the United States exists to serve its citizens." "The Christian Bible has two sections, the Old Testament and the New Testament. The Old Testament is the original Hebrew Bible, the sacred scriptures of the Jewish faith, written at different times between about 1200 and 165 BC. The New Testament books were written by Christians in the first century AD." "How long after Jesus died was the Bible written? Written over the course of almost a century after Jesus' death, the four gospels of the New Testament, though they tell the same story, reflect very different ideas and concerns. A period of forty years separates the death of Jesus from the writing of the first gospel." "5th century The Muratorian Canon, which is believed to date to 200 A.D., is the earliest compilation of canonical texts resembling the New Testament. It was not until the 5th century that all the different Christian churches came to a basic agreement on Biblical canon." "Who decided the chapters of the Bible? Chapters and verses of the Bible - Wikipedia Cardinal Hugo de Sancto Caro is often given credit for first dividing the Latin Vulgate into chapters in the real sense, but it is the arrangement of his contemporary and fellow cardinal Stephen Langton who in 1205 created the chapter divisions which are used today." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...ons_and_translations Bible versions and translations XXX "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis Per my far-right friend: "reality sucks" FYI - if you ID as "conservative" nowadays, Trump owns you. | |||
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Thats an interesting question Kabob. I think with or without religion involved, 1/6 would have happened. Man was bred to fight/defend/retaliate from the beginning of time. Resources are finite, even now. The pagans in many places gave Rome all it could handle on numerous occasions. They were collections of family units, with no central religion or affinity to anyone but the clan. Yet, they rose up against a common threat they saw in Rome, even with the advantages Rome brought with them. I look at things from the prism of a warrior, as I myself am not religious, nor look down on anyone's declared religion. | |||
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Interesting. I don't look down on religion itself, just the effect it has on the mind, and the consequences of human relation to it. "Religion" has been a significant factor in human essence since practically the first human. And they say Neanderthals had religion of sorts. It would be contradictory, as a humanist, to reject religion as a significant part of being human. It is what it is. The existence of religion and all the associated stuff is reality. What they believe is not reality. It's purely belief that can't be proven or disproven, and for the most part independent of facts and reason. XXX "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis Per my far-right friend: "reality sucks" FYI - if you ID as "conservative" nowadays, Trump owns you. | |||
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The effect it has on the mind is also the good thing. There are a large number of people who were headed, or already on dark paths, who used religion to make themselves into better people. That is nothing to put down, and am happy for them. I politely tell the ones that want to "read" to me, no thanks. I have never had one be persistent about it after a "no". I'm also a bit intimidating looking when I scowl, so they get the message. | |||
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That’s why I’m somewhat bemused when people quote verses from the bible, the specific wording used to justify a view or course of action. Not only was it written 100+ years after the death of Jesus, much of it much more, but it’s been translated several times. | |||
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I dont know that intended to declare them the same. But at their worst they are very similar. Think the crusades and stalins reign. The end result is a loss of humanity and an abundance of atrocity, which ever you choose. Comparing that with stop signs seems a little bit facetious. | |||
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No idea about other religions. But in mine, we have religious people who cover the whole spectrum of behavior. There ones I would trust with my life. And there are ones I would rather never see or hear them. | |||
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Amen! And only man could make the wrong choice. That should be a life lesson for all who want to follow the way of “man.” ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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IMO, very good discussion. BTW, religion is a choice. For some, once down the rabbit hole, there's no escape. Some say it's a matter of indoctrination, but it still falls in the concept of choice. Free will is associated, but religion and free will are on different pillars or poles. They pull energy one from the other. As the religious pillar grows, free will diminishes, and vice versa. It's an inverse relationship. The way of man includes religion, and those religious ways vary by denomination, sect, type, etc., and degree, and even in infinite individual choices. There is no flip-side to the ways of man. Religious, atheist, agnostic, etc. are all ways of man. Even condemning one religion compared to another, or saying one is the true religion, is also ways of man. XXX "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis Per my far-right friend: "reality sucks" FYI - if you ID as "conservative" nowadays, Trump owns you. | |||
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Don’t disagree at all. Hence, the reason I rarely look to or rely on “man” for guidance and dislike being governed by Godless law. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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remember that rationalism, humanism, and even atheism can be interchangeable with "religion" - zealots tend to make a mess things, regardless of the robes of their "priests" #dumptrump opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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I partially agree especially the part about zealots. Yes those words or concepts can be interchanged and often are, But such is wrong, IMO. Nationalism and humanism are not religions, unless the meaning and definition of "religion" is distorted beyond involving a deity or the supernatural as in God or gods, and worship thereof. XXX "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis Per my far-right friend: "reality sucks" FYI - if you ID as "conservative" nowadays, Trump owns you. | |||
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that's sort of like saying a tesla and a pinto aren't the same thing/function - they are sort of anti each other, but they fit the same mission statement to solve a problem, for literally the same reasons/rationale -- pollute less, get from a to z #dumptrump opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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