quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
https://www.instagram.com/reel...hid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==

When he claims that the 1 million, maybe 1.2 the Barbary pirates enslaved were more than the 10,000,000 while slavery was legal in the U.S. you can quit listening.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
https://www.pbs.org/wnet/afric...es-landed-in-the-us/

The keyword being "directly", the majority were first landed in the Carribean, plus there was considerable reproduction over 300+ years.

To illustrate just how big a lie this is, consider that the Census for 1860 showed a slave population of 3,953,762.

C'mon, Dr. Easter, is ANY of the crap you claim to believe founded on actual fact or is it all lies and delusions?

When Great Britain, Mexico, and France has already banned slavery; just bc slavery existed does not mean the US Chattel Slavery of the 19th Century was justifiable.

No amount of historical they did it will ever justify the Antebellum South the rebelled primarily to maintain slavery. That is a historical fact.

You can go read the primary source material from actual secessionist that I have already posted. It was a slaver’s rebellion.

You condemn yourself out of your own mouth.

The highest number of slaves in U.S. is considered to be 4,000,000
The U.S. was far far behind the Spainish in total number of slaves

Spain Abolished Slavery in 1811. That included the Spanish Colonies. Cuba defied this. The Southern States wanted to bring Cuba into the Union as they had done w Texas.


Again, your justification fails.

Ultimately, it’s in history books and that’s that
Everyone can get over it and just treat it as simple history
I would never feel guilty about that or for that matter about anything in history before my time
History is time for reflection and maybe hopefully learning from it

quote:

Originally posted by Bivoj:
Ultimately, it’s in history books and that’s that
Everyone can get over it and just treat it as simple history
I would never feel guilty about that or for that matter about anything in history before my time
History is time for reflection and maybe hopefully learning from it

But we are being asked to accept "history" from a proven liar. When you just make up crap to advance a narrative without regard for fact that's not "history".

quote:

Originally posted by Bivoj:
Ultimately, it’s in history books and that’s that
Everyone can get over it and just treat it as simple history
I would never feel guilty about that or for that matter about anything in history before my time
History is time for reflection and maybe hopefully learning from it

I wonder if you would tell that to a Jew about the Holocaust.

Also, who needs to get over it are the Confederate sympathizers who are trying to justify and normalize the “Lost Cause.”

Hyem if you statement was directed at me, I meant no fucking justification just stating facts. Also there is numerous reports that slavery in New World Spainish colonies continured well after 1811.

Just so everyone is clear I am not pro slavery, lol

So, are the majority here, on the political forum, in favor of reparations? If I identify as a conservative, does that mean I have to be pro-slavery? If I identify as anti-slavery, does that mean I have to be in favor of reparations, or even worse, a liberal? If I think we need to just get over what happened 150 years, does that mean I'm a right wing extremist? Life these days is so complicated. Regards, Bill.

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Leeper:
So, are the majority here, on the political forum, in favor of reparations? If I identify as a conservative, does that mean I have to be pro-slavery? If I identify as anti-slavery, does that mean I have to be in favor of reparations, or even worse, a liberal? If I think we need to just get over what happened 150 years, does that mean I'm a right wing extremist? Life these days is so complicated. Regards, Bill.

Sigh...do reparations ever end? What is the end point, the goal toward which we work. How do reparations contribute to that goal?

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Leeper:
So, are the majority here, on the political forum, in favor of reparations? If I identify as a conservative, does that mean I have to be pro-slavery? If I identify as anti-slavery, does that mean I have to be in favor of reparations, or even worse, a liberal? If I think we need to just get over what happened 150 years, does that mean I'm a right wing extremist? Life these days is so complicated. Regards, Bill.

I know of no proposed reparations plan I would support. Probably a heartfelt National acknowledgement of the wrong and an apology is as good as it gets.

There HAS been built-in systematic implicit and explicit bias from top to bottom in our government and society that needs cleaning up, but we haven't really been smart about that, either.

I supported Race Based Affirmative Action as a better option than reparations. Reparations failed in CA. I do not see it as a viable polo currently.

Classes in public school have drastically failed in telling the true wrong of Slavery, Black Codes that followed, and then Jim Crowe.

I was thought the “States’ Rights Myth” up to to College. I was never thought about the Tulsa Race Massacre. I was not taught about Black Codes until law school.

quote:

Originally posted by MLindsay:
Hyem if you statement was directed at me, I meant no fucking justification just stating facts. Also there is numerous reports that slavery in New World Spainish colonies continured well after 1811.

Just so everyone is clear I am not pro slavery, lol

It is an undisputed fact the Spain banned Slavery in its colonies in 1811. Cuba resisted. Other colonies may have as well. What cannot be argued is the other major Nation States had ended Slavery. The acts of Arab, Barbours, Middle East/African Slavery trade is not going to justify, mitigate, nor explain away Southern Chattel Slavery.

The Confederate Leadership knew the Constitution, the Declaration of Independence, liberal morality was anthesis to Slavery. They knew that slavery not expending into new territories that would become states would see a Federal Government move to end Slavery. They said so at the time. They rebelled to prevent that. It is a great thing they lost. Other then the loss of life to break this, the loss was not to be mourned.

Finally, the teaching of what caused our Civil War, how states sought to prevent engagement in citizens ship to African Americans post war, and violence to keep African Americans in place needs to be taught long and loud.

When you compare another Nation State’s slavery to the US practice with he implication being the YS Practice was not extreme or less then, you are justifying.

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Leeper:
So, are the majority here, on the political forum, in favor of reparations? If I identify as a conservative, does that mean I have to be pro-slavery? If I identify as anti-slavery, does that mean I have to be in favor of reparations, or even worse, a liberal? If I think we need to just get over what happened 150 years, does that mean I'm a right wing extremist? Life these days is so complicated. Regards, Bill.

I guess it is a sign of the times. Folks seem to want to think of the world in binary terms. It is either black or white. Shades of gray confuse and frustrate them. Of course, slavery was an abomination and any suggestion that it was somehow not has bad as it was because some good may have come out of isolated cases, is just nonsense. On the flip side, reparations are just as nonsensical. History happens. Shit happens. That does not make people born generations later responsible for what happened. It is almost like if one concept is bad, some people want to paint the other concept as good. Can't both concepts be wrong? We see this displayed on this forum daily. Trump is bad so anyone believing that must believe that Biden is good, or Trump is good so anyone believing that must believe that Biden is bad. I happen to believe that both are worthless . . . just like I believe that both slavery and reparations are worthless.

quote:

Originally posted by Jefffive:

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Leeper:
So, are the majority here, on the political forum, in favor of reparations? If I identify as a conservative, does that mean I have to be pro-slavery? If I identify as anti-slavery, does that mean I have to be in favor of reparations, or even worse, a liberal? If I think we need to just get over what happened 150 years, does that mean I'm a right wing extremist? Life these days is so complicated. Regards, Bill.

I know of no proposed reparations plan I would support. Probably a heartfelt National acknowledgement of the wrong and an apology is as good as it gets.

There HAS been built-in systematic implicit and explicit bias from top to bottom in our government and society that needs cleaning up, but we haven't really been smart about that, either.

I think the US has made an effort for sure. We have MLK Day, Juneteenth, Black History Month...

These are all good things and are made better on how 'we' use them. The focus should be positive of the achievements and struggles of those in our past. I would include the indigenous peoples who do not seem to share the same celebrations.

True, no one alive now had participated in slavery or taking land from indigenous, etc. The country still needs to heal. Not sure if it ever will even though so much time has passed.

quote:

Originally posted by Aspen Hill Adventures:

quote:

Originally posted by Jefffive:

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Leeper:
So, are the majority here, on the political forum, in favor of reparations? If I identify as a conservative, does that mean I have to be pro-slavery? If I identify as anti-slavery, does that mean I have to be in favor of reparations, or even worse, a liberal? If I think we need to just get over what happened 150 years, does that mean I'm a right wing extremist? Life these days is so complicated. Regards, Bill.

I know of no proposed reparations plan I would support. Probably a heartfelt National acknowledgement of the wrong and an apology is as good as it gets.

There HAS been built-in systematic implicit and explicit bias from top to bottom in our government and society that needs cleaning up, but we haven't really been smart about that, either.

I think the US has made an effort for sure. We have MLK Day, Juneteenth, Black History Month...

These are all good things and are made better on how 'we' use them. The focus should be positive of the achievements and struggles of those in our past. I would include the indigenous peoples who do not seem to share the same celebrations.

True, no one alive now had participated in slavery or taking land from indigenous, etc. The country still needs to heal. Not sure if it ever will even though so much time has passed.

You are talking about largely meaningless, symbolic bullshit, I'm talking about the fact that a Black American cannot borrow capital on the same basis as a white one given identical financials, that a house represented as owned by a black man will appraise for 40% less than the same exact house in the same location represented as having a white owner, that a Black Citizen's interaction with any police officer is far more likely to be negative than a white one and, if found guilty of identical crimes the black will get a longer sentence, pretty much every time.

Having a truck full of Bubba's flying Confederate flags yelling insults out at you is probably more tolerable than knowing every day your daughter is trying to learn math and science at a school funded and staffed below the one most of the white kids moved to with the vouchers paid for with the tax money taken away from everybody's schools to subsidize the well-off.

Than why didnt our black president, Biden, or Obo before him, and the dem house and senate changed things when they could?
So much of this is because, " this is the way it has always been"
Contributions means the tax money goes where the doners want it to go, whether D or R. And that is not to boosting schools.

quote:

Originally posted by theback40:
Than why didnt our black president, Biden, or Obo before him, and the dem house and senate changed things when they could?
So much of this is because, " this is the way it has always been"
Contributions means the tax money goes where the doners want it to go, whether D or R. And that is not to boosting schools.

I can tell you have never paid any attention to who has proposed banking laws that would help, and who opposed them, or who has pushed for and passed private school vouchers in Florida that can be used to pay for a trip to DisneyWorld, and who opposed it, or who is fighting hard to keep the black folks in North Florida from being able to vote together to elect somebody who represents them..

You see, there has been ONE political party that has for the last 60 years or so tried to make things a little bit closer to "fair" for everybody, and there's another political party who has done everything possible to keep that from happening.

Let's see if you can figure out who's who.

You keep telling yourself that.

quote:

Originally posted by theback40:
You keep telling yourself that.

A masterful retort that disproves every point I made...

I am still unsure what President Obama did to even out lending practices or other important legislation that was passed to help blacks in America

quote:

Originally posted by MLindsay:
I am still unsure what President Obama did to even out lending practices or other important legislation that was passed to help blacks in America

In his 8 years Obama had a Democratic House and a filibuster-proof Senate at the same time for, insert drumroll here,...

4 months. He passed and signed Obamacare.

Jeff,
both parties have bills that would pass with ease if they were stand alone. But, they attatch shit that the other side flat out oppose. They dont care, it's about looking good for their individual party. And to use against the opposition.
You are old and blind to it, I know.
I vote beyond party. I no longer care about the "greater good" there is no such thing. Both parties have shown they cant be trusted.
I now choose who "claim" and I use that word with a great deal of scepticism, will do me and my business/ way of life the least harm.

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:
I supported Race Based Affirmative Action as a better option than reparations. Reparations failed in CA. I do not see it as a viable polo currently.

Classes in public school have drastically failed in telling the true wrong of Slavery, Black Codes that followed, and then Jim Crowe.

I was thought the “States’ Rights Myth” up to to College. I was never thought about the Tulsa Race Massacre. I was not taught about Black Codes until law school.

So you admit to supporting a racist policy. Terrific. You are a racist congratulations.

I admit to supporting race based affirmative action in college admissions as a counter to the decades of racism faced by African Americans. Racism that is still institutional. See the Alabama racists gerrymandering.

So racial discrimination now to make up for past racial discrimination. Got it. That makes you a racist pal. In fact that is the very definition of the term.

I have always considered myself right in the middle of any political way of thinking and Bluefish comment is the right assessment for Heym
Repay evil with evil…wow Heym, for lawyer, that’s simply nuts

quote:

Originally posted by Jefffive:

quote:

Originally posted by Bivoj:
Ultimately, it’s in history books and that’s that
Everyone can get over it and just treat it as simple history
I would never feel guilty about that or for that matter about anything in history before my time
History is time for reflection and maybe hopefully learning from it

But we are being asked to accept "history" from a proven liar. When you just make up crap to advance a narrative without regard for fact that's not "history".

Jeff,
There was no lie told. Sowell was comparing the number of slaves initially brought to North America (-340,000) to the number of slaves taken by the Barbary Pirates (1.2 M).

quote:

Originally posted by MLindsay:
Hyem if you statement was directed at me, I meant no fucking justification just stating facts. Also there is numerous reports that slavery in New World Spainish colonies continured well after 1811.

Just so everyone is clear I am not pro slavery, lol

Of course not Mike…only Joshua would come to such an absurd assumption.

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Leeper:
So, are the majority here, on the political forum, in favor of reparations? If I identify as a conservative, does that mean I have to be pro-slavery? If I identify as anti-slavery, does that mean I have to be in favor of reparations, or even worse, a liberal? If I think we need to just get over what happened 150 years, does that mean I'm a right wing extremist? Life these days is so complicated. Regards, Bill.

Great post

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Leeper:
So, are the majority here, on the political forum, in favor of reparations? If I identify as a conservative, does that mean I have to be pro-slavery? If I identify as anti-slavery, does that mean I have to be in favor of reparations, or even worse, a liberal? If I think we need to just get over what happened 150 years, does that mean I'm a right wing extremist? Life these days is so complicated. Regards, Bill.

I guess it is a sign of the times. Folks seem to want to think of the world in binary terms. It is either black or white. Shades of gray confuse and frustrate them. Of course, slavery was an abomination and any suggestion that it was somehow not has bad as it was because some good may have come out of isolated cases, is just nonsense. On the flip side, reparations are just as nonsensical. History happens. Shit happens. That does not make people born generations later responsible for what happened. It is almost like if one concept is bad, some people want to paint the other concept as good. Can't both concepts be wrong? We see this displayed on this forum daily. Trump is bad so anyone believing that must believe that Biden is good, or Trump is good so anyone believing that must believe that Biden is bad. I happen to believe that both are worthless . . . just like I believe that both slavery and reparations are worthless.

I can agree with the vast majority of that.

quote:

Of course, slavery was an abomination……… On the flip side, reparations are just as nonsensical. History happens. Shit happens. That does not make people born generations later responsible for what happened.

This^^^was the point Sowell was making in his overall interview. It can be watched on a youtube video but it is long.

quote:

Originally posted by Aspen Hill Adventures:

quote:

Originally posted by Jefffive:

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Leeper:
So, are the majority here, on the political forum, in favor of reparations? If I identify as a conservative, does that mean I have to be pro-slavery? If I identify as anti-slavery, does that mean I have to be in favor of reparations, or even worse, a liberal? If I think we need to just get over what happened 150 years, does that mean I'm a right wing extremist? Life these days is so complicated. Regards, Bill.

I know of no proposed reparations plan I would support. Probably a heartfelt National acknowledgement of the wrong and an apology is as good as it gets.

There HAS been built-in systematic implicit and explicit bias from top to bottom in our government and society that needs cleaning up, but we haven't really been smart about that, either.

I think the US has made an effort for sure. We have MLK Day, Juneteenth, Black History Month...

These are all good things and are made better on how 'we' use them. The focus should be positive of the achievements and struggles of those in our past. I would include the indigenous peoples who do not seem to share the same celebrations.

True, no one alive now had participated in slavery or taking land from indigenous, etc. The country still needs to heal. Not sure if it ever will even though so much time has passed.

It almost gets there…then a politician “picks the scab” to garner votes.

quote:

Originally posted by bluefish:
So racial discrimination now to make up for past racial discrimination. Got it. That makes you a racist pal. In fact that is the very definition of the term.

100%!

Until we get away from race as a criteria for anything…racism will continue.

quote:

Originally posted by Aspen Hill Adventures:
I think the US has made an effort for sure. We have MLK Day, Juneteenth, Black History Month...

These are all good things and are made better on how 'we' use them. The focus should be positive of the achievements and struggles of those in our past. I would include the indigenous peoples who do not seem to share the same celebrations.

True, no one alive now had participated in slavery or taking land from indigenous, etc. The country still needs to heal. Not sure if it ever will even though so much time has passed.

These things are lipstick on a pig, for the most part. We jammed Lincoln's birthday onto George Washington's to make room for MLK Day, which seemed a little desperate. I don't know if we're going to give up another holiday to make room for Juneteenth (interesting that the spell checker doesn't flag Juneteenth). Maybe not, if automation continues to reduce the number of hours needed to feed everyone.

I do not see an end to race-consciousness in my lifetime, or a merging of cultures to the extent that it becomes universal.

We mostly live apart in suburbia anyway, so our usual habits in that space have room for apartheid.
In this neighborhood, the important color is green...

quote:

Originally posted by TomP:

quote:

Originally posted by Aspen Hill Adventures:
I think the US has made an effort for sure. We have MLK Day, Juneteenth, Black History Month...

These are all good things and are made better on how 'we' use them. The focus should be positive of the achievements and struggles of those in our past. I would include the indigenous peoples who do not seem to share the same celebrations.

True, no one alive now had participated in slavery or taking land from indigenous, etc. The country still needs to heal. Not sure if it ever will even though so much time has passed.

These things are lipstick on a pig, for the most part. We jammed Lincoln's birthday onto George Washington's to make room for MLK Day, which seemed a little desperate. I don't know if we're going to give up another holiday to make room for Juneteenth (interesting that the spell checker doesn't flag Juneteenth). Maybe not, if automation continues to reduce the number of hours needed to feed everyone.

I do not see an end to race-consciousness in my lifetime, or a merging of cultures to the extent that it becomes universal.

We mostly live apart in suburbia anyway, so our usual habits in that space have room for apartheid.
In this neighborhood, the important color is green...

I remain convinced that any attempt to impose race neutrality on a culture or society is doomed to fail, but that doesn't affect our responsibility to recognize and correct racial bias built into our governments and its rules and rulings.