quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
Except no one was defrauded.

quote:

Originally posted by Mike Mitchell:

quote:

Originally posted by Tumbleweed:
I see there’s already a “go fund me” to bail his sorry ass out. His power to sway weak minds truly astounds me.

Yup. And, it's up to almost $45,000.00 Let's see, counting the prejudgment interest....only $434,955,000.00 to go.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
. . . then you SHOULD know that in any major financing the lenders are relying in material part on a variety of third party sources of information, audited financials as well as extensive representations and warranties by the borrower. They are NOT independently verifying each representation by the borrower. That is why states and the feds have laws to protect lenders in situations where they are defrauded by the affirmative actions of a borrower . . . like Trump. Why do you think Trump and members of his syndicate lied in the first place? Might it have been because they were seeking the most favorable borrowing terms possible? Or maybe it was just for shits and giggles.

quote:

Originally posted by Mike Mitchell:
And? He just gets a pass for what, in Texas and every other state in the union, is a crime?

Section 37.101 - Fraudulent Filing of Financing Statement (a) A person commits an offense if the person knowingly presents for filing or causes to be presented for filing a financing statement that the person knows: (1) is forged; (2) contains a material false statement; or (3) is groundless.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
. . . the new GOP. Lying is okay. It is the responsibility of everyone the liar deals with to figure out they are a liar. Sheesh.

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
. . . then you SHOULD know that in any major financing the lenders are relying in material part on a variety of third party sources of information, audited financials as well as extensive representations and warranties by the borrower. They are NOT independently verifying each representation by the borrower. That is why states and the feds have laws to protect lenders in situations where they are defrauded by the affirmative actions of a borrower . . . like Trump. Why do you think Trump and members of his syndicate lied in the first place? Might it have been because they were seeking the most favorable borrowing terms possible? Or maybe it was just for shits and giggles.

THIS is the kind of sh!t that gives M&A teams nightmares
https://www.cfodive.com/news/h...a%20Reuters%20report.

Dude, having been on most aspects of loans, CDOs, MBS, M&A, and even going public/IPO.. , we do NOT rely on statements from the other side - that @#$@#$ ended with the S&L debacle.

Every document and statement from "the other side" is considered FALSE - because who knows what basis they used to value
(in the US)
Book value - always decreases from time of purchase due to depreciation
Market value - there's a seller's option and a buyer's option, in bespoke assets
appraised value - by whom and for what purpose - I am fairly sure we both disagree with Montgomery county's tax appraisal of our homes, and when purchased, probably were NOT "surprised" to find that the lender's appraisal vs the seller's appraisal vs the tax appraisal were widely divergent - which one "wins" when calculating the LTV? the bank's, 100% of the time -- and ZERO of those include a condition inspection

A lender and a buyer AGREEING on a value is the buyer accepting the lender's valuation, and then agreeing to the cost of the loan (interest) it's a remarkably simple transaction, at heart - the bank says what the property is worth, what the cost of the loan is, and the buyer accepts, or "buys points", which, again, is a cost of the loan.

If the banks agreed to the terms, and the buyer pays back the loan on those terms, where the bank has the majority of the power, how are they hurt --

but wait, there's more --

There wasn't a SINGLE lender that said "trump ripped us off" .. as related to this case - Not a single EVP/MD is going to stand up in court and say a glorified slumlord duped them -- not ONE. There wasn't a single "victim" taking the stand, projecting their loss to the world, demanding repayment - nope, weird ...

Could the banks of stated tougher terms? Sure, they could have, and made the cost of the loan higher -- but the next bank down the street would have priced the loan lower than the that bank, fighting to win the loan, and the buyer could select the lower cost loan...

but, hey, why should I bother typing this -- goto www.leandingtree.com and enter your details, and see 3 to 20 banks competing for your loan, all with different T&Cs, and if your select a lender, and complete their application process, and you agree to THEIR terms, and pay them back, not a single lender would complain

the lenders set the terms of the loan, aka, the cost of the loan, and the buyer can accept/negotiate-then-accept those terms.

i find it dang hard to accept that there's fraud when the defrauded set the terms of the agreement and accepted full payment

"caveat emptor" does cut both ways

quote:

Engoron pointed out that Trump, then a real estate mogul, "gave up the right to use Mar-a-Lago for any purpose other than as a social club" by agreeing to a "Deed of Conservation and Preservation" in 1995.

Seven years later, the order noted Trump also "granted a conservation easement to the National Trust for Historic Preservation." Engeron wrote that the agreement placed limits on further alterations to the property, including being able to subdivide the land for "any purpose," among them building single-family homes. That agreement also restricted the interior renovations that could be necessary to boost its value in a future sale.

Trump agreed to the restrictions, the judge wrote in order to "significantly lower property taxes on Mar-a-Lago."

When preparing the valuations on Mar-a-Lago, however, the "premise" was that the compound "could be sold as a private residence to an individual," even "as a single-family residence," regardless of "the deeded prohibitions against such use in perpetuity."

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
Mike, Mike,
you both know that I am 100% correct in the long post.

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
Mike, Mike,
you both know that I am 100% correct in the long post. MM, I don't know your practice, but I assume it's not fiserv or M&A --

a "loan" is a purchase - it has T&Cs, and the "Street" (a collection of banks) have different pricing and risk models, as well as internal cost of funds - they "price the deal" that contains the risk model as well as desired rate of return, which is expressed as interest. Ask 5 different big banks for a big loan, and you will get 5 different term sheets - the basic levers being interest rate and length of contract.

You two both hold JDs, which make you esteemed in your field. Among other things, i have a finance MBA, and have worked in banking/fiserv for a good part, approaching 1/2 of my working years, and it's been the more recent half

Do people lie about their assets? everyday - in fact, in the loan above (assuming it's real property to a corporation) , due to depreciation, the building is worth LESS on day 2 of the deal, according to book value, than the day it was purchased - this is GAAP. PPE depreciation

Frankly, the judge in NEW YORK trying to state as fact his opinion of the value of Mar a Lago is lunacy - he's not qualified as an appraiser in NY (i am assuming) and certainly not in FLA - his opinion on the value of a thing, in financial terms, has no basis other than his opinion


Trump was likely OFFERED a range of loans to purchase (for every loan), and selected his favorite. DB pulling the plug post j6 is of no relevance to loans made prior to 12/31/20 - zero, zip, nada, that pretty lame revisionist action

Ya'll wanna get on a zoom call and talk this out?

Hmm, tell me, where is the $354million going? is it going to the "victims" (who can't express a loss basis their own paper) or to the state?

quote:

Originally posted by ANTELOPEDUNDEE:

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
Mike, Mike,
you both know that I am 100% correct in the long post. MM, I don't know your practice, but I assume it's not fiserv or M&A --

a "loan" is a purchase - it has T&Cs, and the "Street" (a collection of banks) have different pricing and risk models, as well as internal cost of funds - they "price the deal" that contains the risk model as well as desired rate of return, which is expressed as interest. Ask 5 different big banks for a big loan, and you will get 5 different term sheets - the basic levers being interest rate and length of contract.

You two both hold JDs, which make you esteemed in your field. Among other things, i have a finance MBA, and have worked in banking/fiserv for a good part, approaching 1/2 of my working years, and it's been the more recent half

Do people lie about their assets? everyday - in fact, in the loan above (assuming it's real property to a corporation) , due to depreciation, the building is worth LESS on day 2 of the deal, according to book value, than the day it was purchased - this is GAAP. PPE depreciation

Frankly, the judge in NEW YORK trying to state as fact his opinion of the value of Mar a Lago is lunacy - he's not qualified as an appraiser in NY (i am assuming) and certainly not in FLA - his opinion on the value of a thing, in financial terms, has no basis other than his opinion


Trump was likely OFFERED a range of loans to purchase (for every loan), and selected his favorite. DB pulling the plug post j6 is of no relevance to loans made prior to 12/31/20 - zero, zip, nada, that pretty lame revisionist action

Ya'll wanna get on a zoom call and talk this out?

Hmm, tell me, where is the $354million going? is it going to the "victims" (who can't express a loss basis their own paper) or to the state?

If it was that cut and dried then he couldn't find an attorney to properly make his case? Must be more to the story. I don't think fines go to "victims".

quote:

Originally posted by jdollar:
I’m still amazed that people here want to defend/deflect the verdict. Trump is a convicted fraudster and sex offender. Simple as that.

quote:

Originally posted by jdollar:
I’m still amazed that people here want to defend/deflect the verdict. Trump is a convicted fraudster and sex offender. Simple as that.

quote:

Originally posted by Jefffive:

quote:

Originally posted by ANTELOPEDUNDEE:

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
Mike, Mike,
you both know that I am 100% correct in the long post. MM, I don't know your practice, but I assume it's not fiserv or M&A --

a "loan" is a purchase - it has T&Cs, and the "Street" (a collection of banks) have different pricing and risk models, as well as internal cost of funds - they "price the deal" that contains the risk model as well as desired rate of return, which is expressed as interest. Ask 5 different big banks for a big loan, and you will get 5 different term sheets - the basic levers being interest rate and length of contract.

You two both hold JDs, which make you esteemed in your field. Among other things, i have a finance MBA, and have worked in banking/fiserv for a good part, approaching 1/2 of my working years, and it's been the more recent half

Do people lie about their assets? everyday - in fact, in the loan above (assuming it's real property to a corporation) , due to depreciation, the building is worth LESS on day 2 of the deal, according to book value, than the day it was purchased - this is GAAP. PPE depreciation

Frankly, the judge in NEW YORK trying to state as fact his opinion of the value of Mar a Lago is lunacy - he's not qualified as an appraiser in NY (i am assuming) and certainly not in FLA - his opinion on the value of a thing, in financial terms, has no basis other than his opinion


Trump was likely OFFERED a range of loans to purchase (for every loan), and selected his favorite. DB pulling the plug post j6 is of no relevance to loans made prior to 12/31/20 - zero, zip, nada, that pretty lame revisionist action

Ya'll wanna get on a zoom call and talk this out?

Hmm, tell me, where is the $354million going? is it going to the "victims" (who can't express a loss basis their own paper) or to the state?

If it was that cut and dried then he couldn't find an attorney to properly make his case? Must be more to the story. I don't think fines go to "victims".

These aren't "fines", they are "disgorgements" of "ill-gotten gains", disgorgement is just too long for a Title.

quote:

Originally posted by ANTELOPEDUNDEE:

quote:

Originally posted by Jefffive:

quote:

Originally posted by ANTELOPEDUNDEE:

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
Mike, Mike,
you both know that I am 100% correct in the long post. MM, I don't know your practice, but I assume it's not fiserv or M&A --

a "loan" is a purchase - it has T&Cs, and the "Street" (a collection of banks) have different pricing and risk models, as well as internal cost of funds - they "price the deal" that contains the risk model as well as desired rate of return, which is expressed as interest. Ask 5 different big banks for a big loan, and you will get 5 different term sheets - the basic levers being interest rate and length of contract.

You two both hold JDs, which make you esteemed in your field. Among other things, i have a finance MBA, and have worked in banking/fiserv for a good part, approaching 1/2 of my working years, and it's been the more recent half

Do people lie about their assets? everyday - in fact, in the loan above (assuming it's real property to a corporation) , due to depreciation, the building is worth LESS on day 2 of the deal, according to book value, than the day it was purchased - this is GAAP. PPE depreciation

Frankly, the judge in NEW YORK trying to state as fact his opinion of the value of Mar a Lago is lunacy - he's not qualified as an appraiser in NY (i am assuming) and certainly not in FLA - his opinion on the value of a thing, in financial terms, has no basis other than his opinion


Trump was likely OFFERED a range of loans to purchase (for every loan), and selected his favorite. DB pulling the plug post j6 is of no relevance to loans made prior to 12/31/20 - zero, zip, nada, that pretty lame revisionist action

Ya'll wanna get on a zoom call and talk this out?

Hmm, tell me, where is the $354million going? is it going to the "victims" (who can't express a loss basis their own paper) or to the state?

If it was that cut and dried then he couldn't find an attorney to properly make his case? Must be more to the story. I don't think fines go to "victims".

These aren't "fines", they are "disgorgements" of "ill-gotten gains", disgorgement is just too long for a Title.

Of course. I expect that the NY jurisdiction collecting them will decide where they go. Are disgorgements dischargeable by bankruptcy?

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
If you seriously are interested in educating yourself as opposed to simply relying on Fox News snippets you might start by actually reading the judge's order in the case.

Engoron Order in NY Fraud Case

quote:

Originally posted by Timan:

It would be interesting to know specifically which Trump owned properties were used as collateral to secure loans . . .

. . . Not a single word from anyone on how much was borrowed or the actual market value of collateral . . .

quote:

Originally posted by Timan:
It would be interesting to know specifically which Trump owned properties were used as collateral
to secure loans.
That smirking weasel of a NY judge has Mara-largo at 18 million. There's probably people even on this
site that would break a sweat running with cash in hand if they thought for a second they could by it
for 18 million. What about all the other properties Trump owns or at least has title to that are mortgaged.

18 million on Mara-Largo is likely a low appraisal as appraisal and market values almost always have a very
wide margin. If appraisal and market value where the same amount two things would happen immediately.
1. Far, far fewer people would actually qualify for a mortgage.
2. Real state investing would become very UN-interesting as no margin would exist.

Not a single word from anyone on how much was borrowed or the actual market value of collateral.
Furthermore, in the end, all loans with interest repaid in full.

Trump has been persecuted in one form or another since he took office and this will continue.
One thing this says for sure is, political outsiders not welcome with extreme prejudice.

If you think for even one single second that world politics are conducted on a fair and level playing
field then you truly are a complete and total idiot with no understanding whatsoever of what humanity
is capable of and then lengths that will be gone to in order eliminate any and all rival competition.
Especially those who threaten to upset the apple cart and "drain the swamp".

There has been no true political leadership in this country for years at this point or true and responsible
governance to go along with it.

It's basically one big power struggle conducted by the self important elected.
Yes, the elected all start out with the best intentions, but once in office reality sets in and they either
tow the party line without question or they are out the door ASAP.

Name one piece of legislation or executive order the current administration has implemented that has had a
positive outcome to be beneficial to anyone other than themselves.

Name a Presidential candidate that does not have a couple thousand skeletons in the closet at this point in
American history.

It's very interesting how Joe Biden all along has had a hands-off approach to all of Hunter Bidens overseas business
dealings in China, Ukraine.
How exactly does a guy like Hunter Biden become as wealthy as he is. A multi million dollar home in Hollywood, several
expensive cars and god knows what else, all the while lying on 4473 forms to get a transfer.

The entire thing is FUBAR!! and the American taxpayer is getting played.....AND HARD!!!

quote:

Originally posted by Jefffive:

quote:

Originally posted by Timan:
It would be interesting to know specifically which Trump owned properties were used as collateral
to secure loans.
That smirking weasel of a NY judge has Mara-largo at 18 million. There's probably people even on this
site that would break a sweat running with cash in hand if they thought for a second they could by it
for 18 million. What about all the other properties Trump owns or at least has title to that are mortgaged.

18 million on Mara-Largo is likely a low appraisal as appraisal and market values almost always have a very
wide margin. If appraisal and market value where the same amount two things would happen immediately.
1. Far, far fewer people would actually qualify for a mortgage.
2. Real state investing would become very UN-interesting as no margin would exist.

Not a single word from anyone on how much was borrowed or the actual market value of collateral.
Furthermore, in the end, all loans with interest repaid in full.

Trump has been persecuted in one form or another since he took office and this will continue.
One thing this says for sure is, political outsiders not welcome with extreme prejudice.

If you think for even one single second that world politics are conducted on a fair and level playing
field then you truly are a complete and total idiot with no understanding whatsoever of what humanity
is capable of and then lengths that will be gone to in order eliminate any and all rival competition.
Especially those who threaten to upset the apple cart and "drain the swamp".

There has been no true political leadership in this country for years at this point or true and responsible
governance to go along with it.

It's basically one big power struggle conducted by the self important elected.
Yes, the elected all start out with the best intentions, but once in office reality sets in and they either
tow the party line without question or they are out the door ASAP.

Name one piece of legislation or executive order the current administration has implemented that has had a
positive outcome to be beneficial to anyone other than themselves.

Name a Presidential candidate that does not have a couple thousand skeletons in the closet at this point in
American history.

It's very interesting how Joe Biden all along has had a hands-off approach to all of Hunter Bidens overseas business
dealings in China, Ukraine.
How exactly does a guy like Hunter Biden become as wealthy as he is. A multi million dollar home in Hollywood, several
expensive cars and god knows what else, all the while lying on 4473 forms to get a transfer.

The entire thing is FUBAR!! and the American taxpayer is getting played.....AND HARD!!!

Mar-A-Lago is severely restricted as to the uses to which it can be put, Trump signed a very restrictive deed for tax purposes limiting it to use as a "social club" and also signed an easement, again for tax purposes, that forbids substantial changes to the building. All those restrictions would convey to any buyer. He can only reside there because he's listed as an employee.

It cannot be sold as a residence.

The $18 million is the tax appraisal, which should be recalculated based on the documents filed with the Court in New York.

Property tax on $1 billion would probably be higher than on $18 million...

quote:

Originally posted by ANTELOPEDUNDEE:

quote:

Originally posted by Jefffive:

quote:

Originally posted by Timan:
It would be interesting to know specifically which Trump owned properties were used as collateral
to secure loans.
That smirking weasel of a NY judge has Mara-largo at 18 million. There's probably people even on this
site that would break a sweat running with cash in hand if they thought for a second they could by it
for 18 million. What about all the other properties Trump owns or at least has title to that are mortgaged.

18 million on Mara-Largo is likely a low appraisal as appraisal and market values almost always have a very
wide margin. If appraisal and market value where the same amount two things would happen immediately.
1. Far, far fewer people would actually qualify for a mortgage.
2. Real state investing would become very UN-interesting as no margin would exist.

Not a single word from anyone on how much was borrowed or the actual market value of collateral.
Furthermore, in the end, all loans with interest repaid in full.

Trump has been persecuted in one form or another since he took office and this will continue.
One thing this says for sure is, political outsiders not welcome with extreme prejudice.

If you think for even one single second that world politics are conducted on a fair and level playing
field then you truly are a complete and total idiot with no understanding whatsoever of what humanity
is capable of and then lengths that will be gone to in order eliminate any and all rival competition.
Especially those who threaten to upset the apple cart and "drain the swamp".

There has been no true political leadership in this country for years at this point or true and responsible
governance to go along with it.

It's basically one big power struggle conducted by the self important elected.
Yes, the elected all start out with the best intentions, but once in office reality sets in and they either
tow the party line without question or they are out the door ASAP.

Name one piece of legislation or executive order the current administration has implemented that has had a
positive outcome to be beneficial to anyone other than themselves.

Name a Presidential candidate that does not have a couple thousand skeletons in the closet at this point in
American history.

It's very interesting how Joe Biden all along has had a hands-off approach to all of Hunter Bidens overseas business
dealings in China, Ukraine.
How exactly does a guy like Hunter Biden become as wealthy as he is. A multi million dollar home in Hollywood, several
expensive cars and god knows what else, all the while lying on 4473 forms to get a transfer.

The entire thing is FUBAR!! and the American taxpayer is getting played.....AND HARD!!!

Mar-A-Lago is severely restricted as to the uses to which it can be put, Trump signed a very restrictive deed for tax purposes limiting it to use as a "social club" and also signed an easement, again for tax purposes, that forbids substantial changes to the building. All those restrictions would convey to any buyer. He can only reside there because he's listed as an employee.

It cannot be sold as a residence.

The $18 million is the tax appraisal, which should be recalculated based on the documents filed with the Court in New York.

Property tax on $1 billion would probably be higher than on $18 million...

Is it possible to undo the dirty deed?

quote:

Originally posted by ANTELOPEDUNDEE:

quote:

Originally posted by Jefffive:

quote:

Originally posted by Timan:
It would be interesting to know specifically which Trump owned properties were used as collateral
to secure loans.
That smirking weasel of a NY judge has Mara-largo at 18 million. There's probably people even on this
site that would break a sweat running with cash in hand if they thought for a second they could by it
for 18 million. What about all the other properties Trump owns or at least has title to that are mortgaged.

18 million on Mara-Largo is likely a low appraisal as appraisal and market values almost always have a very
wide margin. If appraisal and market value where the same amount two things would happen immediately.
1. Far, far fewer people would actually qualify for a mortgage.
2. Real state investing would become very UN-interesting as no margin would exist.

Not a single word from anyone on how much was borrowed or the actual market value of collateral.
Furthermore, in the end, all loans with interest repaid in full.

Trump has been persecuted in one form or another since he took office and this will continue.
One thing this says for sure is, political outsiders not welcome with extreme prejudice.

If you think for even one single second that world politics are conducted on a fair and level playing
field then you truly are a complete and total idiot with no understanding whatsoever of what humanity
is capable of and then lengths that will be gone to in order eliminate any and all rival competition.
Especially those who threaten to upset the apple cart and "drain the swamp".

There has been no true political leadership in this country for years at this point or true and responsible
governance to go along with it.

It's basically one big power struggle conducted by the self important elected.
Yes, the elected all start out with the best intentions, but once in office reality sets in and they either
tow the party line without question or they are out the door ASAP.

Name one piece of legislation or executive order the current administration has implemented that has had a
positive outcome to be beneficial to anyone other than themselves.

Name a Presidential candidate that does not have a couple thousand skeletons in the closet at this point in
American history.

It's very interesting how Joe Biden all along has had a hands-off approach to all of Hunter Bidens overseas business
dealings in China, Ukraine.
How exactly does a guy like Hunter Biden become as wealthy as he is. A multi million dollar home in Hollywood, several
expensive cars and god knows what else, all the while lying on 4473 forms to get a transfer.

The entire thing is FUBAR!! and the American taxpayer is getting played.....AND HARD!!!

Mar-A-Lago is severely restricted as to the uses to which it can be put, Trump signed a very restrictive deed for tax purposes limiting it to use as a "social club" and also signed an easement, again for tax purposes, that forbids substantial changes to the building. All those restrictions would convey to any buyer. He can only reside there because he's listed as an employee.

It cannot be sold as a residence.

The $18 million is the tax appraisal, which should be recalculated based on the documents filed with the Court in New York.

Property tax on $1 billion would probably be higher than on $18 million...

Is it possible to undo the dirty deed?

quote:

Originally posted by lavaca:
That judgment will never stand. The entire prosecution was a joke and judge was incredibly biased. And I'm not. This was a Democrat arranged politically fiasco.

quote:

Originally posted by Mike Mitchell:
It's like everything else with trump. The cult never lets facts get in the way of their worship of the cult leader.

Lavaca is a lawyer. Maybe he can explain to all of us why he states that the "prosecution was a joke and the judge was incredibly biased."

If the prosecution and the judge got it wrong, I'd be interested in hearing what facts and evidence support that assertion.