I do appreciate some of Trumps recklessness.

On the border and with immigration we've been going the wrong direction for decades. The Mexican border should never have been allowed to spiral as it has. I love Latin America and every single Latin American in it, but the lack of order and process is intolerable, not to mention the illegal goods coming across. I think Trump pushing the limits, judges and courts is a good thing. Yes, where trump is wrong or acting illegally I think he should be firmly corrected, but I'm glad he's testing boundaries that haven't been tested for generations.

I'm dead against beating on our allies, but I read today we're sparring with China and I've got a grin on my face. Again, we've been at a disadvantage with China for decades and I like seeing a pushback from my side. I say push hard on China, cheap shot them when we can.

Don't often see logic posted on this Forum..Goodjob!

So the illegal deportation of a man to a prison he should not be in, is moving the right way on the border.

I state no.

I'll send a hanky for you to twist

US citizens are wrongly convicted all the time and sent to prison. Sad but true. You’re aware of this. It’s an imperfect system. We don’t stop prosecuting law breakers. Now where were we?

i suggest to leave that thread to the trump supporters and cult followers of the supreme leader to see in 4 years what their excuses will be ...

quote:

Originally posted by Duane Wiebe (CG&R):
I'll send a hanky for you to twist

Law and order only matters when it is your issue at hand, otherwise let the lawlessness continue. Win at all costs, the ends justify the means, the new GOP.

quote:

Originally posted by tomahawker:
US citizens are wrongly convicted all the time and sent to prison. Sad but true. You’re aware of this. It’s an imperfect system. We don’t stop prosecuting law breakers. Now where were we?

Trying to get it right, not just get it done. For some of us the ends do not justify the means.

... i will make you happy i believe that all us citizen are pro trumps as they are not getting rid off him you just did see the analogy ... prove me wrong lol

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Bertram:

quote:

Originally posted by tomahawker:
US citizens are wrongly convicted all the time and sent to prison. Sad but true. You’re aware of this. It’s an imperfect system. We don’t stop prosecuting law breakers. Now where were we?

Trying to get it right, not just get it done. For some of us the ends do not justify the means.

And when due process is violated as on this case, we void the verdict.

quote:

Originally posted by tomahawker:
US citizens are wrongly convicted all the time and sent to prison. Sad but true. You’re aware of this. It’s an imperfect system. We don’t stop prosecuting law breakers. Now where were we?

But when you know a mistake has been made then you should correct it ASAP, no?

Trump has Bern as bad as those of us who opposed him said he would be.

But hey, at least trans people can’t get treatment.

Nor do we in the criminal justice system go out of our way to intentionally violate due process rights. Such behavior has consequences.

Really?

I thought the whole BLM thing was the “community reaction” to a lack of response by the legal system.

I grant this particular guy deserved whatever due process he deserved here… but he is not a U.S. citizen and typically once they get transferred out of jurisdiction then the new jurisdiction has to agree to send him back. If you have a guy in jail in KY, you need to have a Kentucky hearing to send him to MN, and you don’t get to insist he come back the second you change your mind- MN has to have an extradition hearing, right?

So for this guy to come back the folks in ElSalvador have to decide to send him- our judge has no authority, right?

Now, finding US agents violated the law, yes they can, and should deal with that in the appropriate way.

Are you denying this guy is a MS13 member?

Are you saying he was legally here when arrested?

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:
Nor do we in the criminal justice system go out of our way to intentionally violate due process rights. Such behavior has consequences.

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:
Really?

I thought the whole BLM thing was the “community reaction” to a lack of response by the legal system.

I grant this particular guy deserved whatever due process he deserved here… but he is not a U.S. citizen and typically once they get transferred out of jurisdiction then the new jurisdiction has to agree to send him back. If you have a guy in jail in KY, you need to have a Kentucky hearing to send him to MN, and you don’t get to insist he come back the second you change your mind- MN has to have an extradition hearing, right?

So for this guy to come back the folks in ElSalvador have to decide to send him- our judge has no authority, right?

Now, finding US agents violated the law, yes they can, and should deal with that in the appropriate way.

Are you denying this guy is a MS13 member?

Are you saying he was legally here when arrested?

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:
Nor do we in the criminal justice system go out of our way to intentionally violate due process rights. Such behavior has consequences.

All evidence shows he was here legally with a green card and other than perhaps his tattoos, no evidence that he was a gang member….

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Bertram:

quote:

Originally posted by tomahawker:
US citizens are wrongly convicted all the time and sent to prison. Sad but true. You’re aware of this. It’s an imperfect system. We don’t stop prosecuting law breakers. Now where were we?

Trying to get it right, not just get it done. For some of us the ends do not justify the means.

And when due process is violated as on this case, we void the verdict.

And that's good. When the law is broken we void the verdict. I still appreciate the push in the other direction.

quote:

Originally posted by Duane Wiebe (CG&R):
Don't often see logic posted on this Forum..Goodjob!

A rarity for me, don't get your hopes up.

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Bertram:

quote:

Originally posted by Duane Wiebe (CG&R):
I'll send a hanky for you to twist

Law and order only matters when it is your issue at hand, otherwise let the lawlessness continue. Win at all costs, the ends justify the means, the new GOP.

I's a good start!

quote:

Originally posted by Scott King:

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Bertram:

quote:

Originally posted by tomahawker:
US citizens are wrongly convicted all the time and sent to prison. Sad but true. You’re aware of this. It’s an imperfect system. We don’t stop prosecuting law breakers. Now where were we?

Trying to get it right, not just get it done. For some of us the ends do not justify the means.

And when due process is violated as on this case, we void the verdict.

And that's good. When the law is broken we void the verdict. I still appreciate the push in the other direction.

The push is in open violation of due process.

The push opens to floor for you to be sent to a foreign prison.

This Administration has removed the lawyer who told the truth concerning this man’s deportation. There is nothing to appreciate.

I have read that illegal border crossing is way down.
I appreciate that.

The ends justify the means right?

Not for me.

quote:

Originally posted by Duane Wiebe (CG&R):

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Bertram:

quote:

Originally posted by Duane Wiebe (CG&R):
I'll send a hanky for you to twist

Law and order only matters when it is your issue at hand, otherwise let the lawlessness continue. Win at all costs, the ends justify the means, the new GOP.

I's a good start!

On the complete destruction of ethics and morals...

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:
The ends justify the means right?

Not for me.

Correct, it is what separates us from the likes of say, Russia. Oh wait just a second.....

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:
The ends justify the means right?

Not for me.

I've agreed with you at least twice now that if the effort is found to be illegal it should be stopped.
You haven't seen that?

If I remember correctly The Emancipation Proclamation was questionably legal.
Was Lincoln right or wrong to pursue it?

Here's an article that I think is relevant to this thread.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news...fe4f216778211&ei=271

'Logic of bullies': Conservative details 'underlying philosophy driving Trump'
Opinion by Alex Henderson • 1h • 3 min read

Scott, your positions seem inconsistent.

On the one hand, you say you do not agree with the means.

On the other hand, you say you approve of the result of those means.

How can you reconcile those beliefs?

Oh, I do not foresee the S. Cr., upholding the District Court’s order to have that man returned. That is because the U.S. has no sovereignty in the El Salvador.

That was the O’Connor rule.

I hope I am wrong, but the S. Ct., is going to be very sympathetic to the, “ We are sorry, but we cannot order El Salvador to give him back argument.”

We have not even discussed the multitudes deported on green cards so mandated due process.

quote:

Originally posted by Scott King:

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:
The ends justify the means right?

Not for me.

I've agreed with you at least twice now that if the effort is found to be illegal it should be stopped.
You haven't seen that?

If I remember correctly The Emancipation Proclamation was questionably legal.
Was Lincoln right or wrong to pursue it?

Actually, no. That is a myth. The Emancipation Proclamation only affected slave status in states in rebellion. If those states at war held property That contributed to the war effort. We know slaves did because the Southern States wanted to use cotton as internationally, economic leverage, that property was contraband.

The denials of due process in these cases are long established and well understood. I’m tried of doing everyone’s reading for them. Just Google green cards, due process, and federal cases. Or deportation and due process and federal cases.

This is not new legal ground.

There is no if to it. Barring the S. Ct., overturning decades of precedent, this question has been resolved and is illegal.

Like a President cannot erase S. Ct., precedent interpreting the Constitution by executive order. That is not an open question.

That is how dumb and dangerous this administration is.

If these long standing due process protections can be ignored. You can be identified by the President, grabbed, and put in a plane. You and I.

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Scott King:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by LHeym500:
The

The denials of due process in these cases are long established and well understood. I’m tried of doing everyone’s reading for them. Just Google green cards, due process, and federal cases. Or deportation and due process and federal cases.

This is not new legal ground.

There is no if to it. Barring the S. Ct., overturning decades of precedent, this question has been resolved and is illegal.

Like a President cannot erase S. Ct., precedent interpreting the Constitution by executive order. That is not an open question.

That is how dumb and dangerous this administration is.

If these long standing due process protections can be ignored. You can be identified by the President, grabbed, and put in a plane. You and I.

Don't get yourself to lathered up kiddo, not all of us get paid to sit around and study law and if you find it so tiresome don't bother.

I guess we'll hang around and see what SCOTUS overturns.

As for stuffing either of us on a plane for places distant I think the "Enemy Combatant" label tidied that up nicely. I seem to remember "W" doing that more than once, Doc Lane has referred to people that disagree with him politically as "Enemies of the State" and I suspect there's plenty of our fellow Americans on both side of the aisle that would consider the both of us to be their adversaries if not enemies.
Got your carry on bag packed?

quote:

Originally posted by medved:
... i will make you happy i believe that all us citizen are pro trumps as they are not getting rid off him you just did see the analogy ... prove me wrong lol

Just like all Canadian citizens are big fans of Justine trudeau.....prove me wrong!

Moron!

Canadian moron!!!!

.

Ever since Ledvm began referring to those holding anti-Trumpist views as "enemies of the state," I began looking at him as an enemy of the Constitution and the Republic.

quote:

Originally posted by Scott King:

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Scott King:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by LHeym500:
The

The denials of due process in these cases are long established and well understood. I’m tried of doing everyone’s reading for them. Just Google green cards, due process, and federal cases. Or deportation and due process and federal cases.

This is not new legal ground.

There is no if to it. Barring the S. Ct., overturning decades of precedent, this question has been resolved and is illegal.

Like a President cannot erase S. Ct., precedent interpreting the Constitution by executive order. That is not an open question.

That is how dumb and dangerous this administration is.

If these long standing due process protections can be ignored. You can be identified by the President, grabbed, and put in a plane. You and I.

Don't get yourself to lathered up kiddo, not all of us get paid to sit around and study law and if you find it so tiresome don't bother.

I guess we'll hang around and see what SCOTUS overturns.

As for stuffing either of us on a plane for places distant I think the "Enemy Combatant" label tidied that up nicely. I seem to remember "W" doing that more than once, Doc Lane has referred to people that disagree with him politically as "Enemies of the State" and I suspect there's plenty of our fellow Americans on both side of the aisle that would consider the both of us to be their adversaries if not enemies.
Got your carry on bag packed?

I never used the word tiresome. You are making my point. All it takes is a President saying you are an enemy when due process is not followed.

Also, if you want to argue from historical precedent like the Emancipation Act, you are going to get a response going on law from me.

It took a constitutional amendment to end slavery in the Union.

The problem with a lot of people is they can never see themselves in the minority. Due Process protects us all.

You may want to read how Sulla started his purges with a group of Roman citizens called the Samnites. These mass herd of recent admitted Ronan citizens was the ground work for the proscriptions.

Like I said back in the Jan 6, Election Crisis, President Trump committed the unpardonable political sin when he engaged in a political campaign to undermine his election defeat and used the violence that resulted to further his scheme to remain in power.

The shall be no Ling in Rome.

This border issue is not without similar taint.

Oh, and the S. Cr., just ruled that those the Administration seek to deport must provide them a hearing. The majority of the Court split the baby, but upheld some due process.

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:
[ I’m tried of doing everyone’s reading for them.

No, I guess you didn't say tiresome.
You are so pre occupied being adversarial with everyone you don't seem to be able to see agreement.

Yes, I am tried of posting cases, and providing summaries with case citations for folks to not read.

The last time I did it was when misinformation from Fox was posted here. It is always to be ignored.

The ends, such as they are, are not with the cost of the means.

Again, the S. Ct., ruled these folks are entitled to a hearing; even allowing the use of the 1798 Alien Enemies Act.

We can only hope Congress does not pass the Alien and Sedition Act again. You need to look that one up. However, it could permit the new Judicial Activist the avenue to kill free speech as a Fundamental Right that recurves Strict Scrutiny. Worse, would be if this Majority were to decide such a Federal act does not violate Strict Scrutiny.

The Alien and Sedition Act was passed by the Federalist allowing the criminal conviction and imprisonment of those who spoke out, made fun of the President. “President Adams, you are a fat tyrannical pig!” Speakers go to federal prison. There I did your reading for you. It is the issue that brought the Jeffersonians to political power.