A related question is how is Trump(ism) going to be a remedy to anything when he/it is a continuum?

Insofar as answers can exist, IMO this guy says it:

https://youtu.be/VY9PZvK6CZs?si=XxBZuQxHizfQG_If

The End of Organized Humanity Noam Chomsky

All he needs to do, is get someone to bear the ring to Mordor.

I did a search on:
"How does Lord of the Rings symbolize humanity?"

Partial Results:

AI Overview

In "Lord of the Rings," humanity is largely symbolized through the character of the "Men" (humans), who are depicted as mortal creatures with a constant struggle against the allure of power, the temptation of evil (represented by the One Ring), and the need to make difficult choices between personal desires and the greater good, all while facing their own mortality, mirroring the complexities of human nature.

https://www.thehumanfront.com/...e-lord-of-the-rings/

The Philosophy of The Lord of the Rings

by James Clark Ross
3 February 2020

Tolkien's story grapples with intrinsically human themes, such as good and evil, power, love, loss, courage, duty, and companionship.

And his experience of humanity was WW1.

We are not there yet.


Though not my intent in conversation. It just struck me that his appearance and to some extent, language was reminiscent of Gandalf.

Tolkien had broader knowledge than just the experience of WWI.

quote:

reminiscent of Gandalf.

Yes, after you mentioned it, I saw the resemblance too and of course the whole video was a study of human nature, consequences, etc.

I thought it was interesting that Lord of the Rings analogy was your idea.

I think it's an odd time that we're living in, considering history and human nature.

The last part of the video link above is the most interesting part to me.

https://youtu.be/VY9PZvK6CZs?s...LjOK1zzmFTmrw1&t=951

Here's the last part of another video relating to this topic"

https://youtu.be/thZUMaGEE-8?s...XDxdT_gkcLzNl&t=4088

We can split the atom but not distinguish truth. Our information is failing us | Yuval Noah Harari

The Ride of the Rohirrim was inspired by the seize of Vienna.

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:
The Ride of the Rohirrim was inspired by the seize of Vienna.

Partial Search results:

AI Overview

Yes, it is widely believed that the "Ride of the Rohirrim" from "The Lord of the Rings" is heavily inspired by the famous Polish cavalry charge during the Siege of Vienna in 1683, considered one of the largest cavalry charges in history where the Polish forces, led by King Jan Sobieski, flanked and overwhelmed the Ottoman army camped outside the city gates; essentially mirroring the epic cavalry charge depicted in Tolkien's work.

The king was age 54 at the time and led the charge.


The Ride of the Rohirrim is probably based on the Polish cavalry charge during the Siege of Vienna in 1683. The biggest cavalry charge in history, they flanked the Ottomans camped outside the gates of Vienna and ran over them.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...a#In_popular_culture

Battle of Vienna

I didn't initiate this thread expecting it to lead to Lord of the Rings, but since it did...

https://youtu.be/8YWIC9UZ5N4?si=awQTlD_7dhScyA6t

In the final scene Frodo, Bilbo and Gandalf sail away with the elves. Does anyone know where they Went?

Of course they went to Elfin Cove Alaska. They now live on Lemesurier Island Alaska.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elfin_Cove,_Alaska

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lemesurier_Island

Mordor and the orcs were a fictional depiction of communism and the USSR, or so I have heard it said per Tolkien.

quote:

Originally posted by Magine Enigam:

We can split the atom but not distinguish truth. Our information is failing us | Yuval Noah Harari

I watched this a while back. Took me a while to find it again but this reminded me of that.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zB_OApdxcno


This is something I have struck with friends.

Those that know they are smart are much more stuck in their confirmation bias and can rationalise their way through cognitive dissonance much more effectively.

quote:

cognitive dissonance

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...dissonance#Paradigms

Opening paragraph:

In the field of psychology, cognitive dissonance is described as the mental disturbance people feel when they realize their cognitions and actions are inconsistent or contradictory. This may ultimately result in some change in their cognitions or actions to cause greater alignment between them so as to reduce this dissonance.[1] Relevant items of information include peoples' actions, feelings, ideas, beliefs, values, and things in the environment. Cognitive dissonance is typically experienced as psychological stress when persons participate in an action that goes against one or more of those things. According to this theory, when an action or idea is psychologically inconsistent with the other, people do all in their power to change either so that they become consistent. The discomfort is triggered by the person's belief clashing with new information perceived, wherein the individual tries to find a way to resolve the contradiction to reduce their discomfort.[1]

================================================

Your linked video is relevant perhaps, but it's a test of a different sort than what I'm talking about. I don't see it challenging belief or paradigm.

Also see Belief disconfirmation

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...lief_disconfirmation

And

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disconfirmed_expectancy

quote:

Originally posted by shankspony:

Those that know they are smart are much more stuck in their confirmation bias and can rationalize (spelling corrected) their way through cognitive dissonance much more effectively.

I copied this link starting at Critical_thinking_and_rationality.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...king_and_rationality

You used the word "rationalize".

Accepted definition:

Attempt to explain or justify (one's own or another's behavior or attitude) with logical, plausible reasons, even if these are not true or appropriate.

You also used the word "effectively".

So, it may be true that smarter people can rationalize confirmation bias more effectively, but stupid people do it too, maybe not as convincingly to others.

My point is, in part, critical thinking is contrary to and perhaps a remedy to confirmation bias or cognitive dissonance, and is something a person sets as a goal and practices it, learns. It's far more difficult than rationalizing to maintain bias. People are lazy. Lots of smart people think they are critically thinking when actually they are rationalizing to avoid changing their minds. I think lots of not-so-smart people can critically think. Basically, it's simple. Just focus on facts and evidence and recognize what one's preconceptions are.

See this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...l_thinking#Functions

It's referred to as a skill, something learned. I don't know if it can be perfected. But even imperfect it's better than perfect rationalizations.

On the contrary, what we have now is something I'll call "belief in Fiction", and failure to recognize it, much less break out of it, even to the point there is no desire to find a remedy. Smart people with poor critical thinking skills render themselves stupid, and we all have to suffer with them and their consequences to some extent.

Couple of things. I think you have read way more into my post than I intended.

I see myself as mostly agreeing with you. What I found interesting was that when wrong, intelligent people seem to have a bigger on average issue with changing their opinion.
And its not relegated too one side of the political spectrum.

Secondly I do not wish to create a dissonance in you. But My spelling was correct and you did not need to spell check me.

https://www.google.com/search?...se&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8

I apologize about the spell check. My spell checker checked your spelling and wanted to change it, so I let it have its way.

Also, when I did a search on your word as spelled, it wanted to search on the alternative spelling, so I let it.

No insult intended.

quote:

What I found interesting was that when wrong, intelligent people seem to have a bigger on average issue with changing their opinion.

Is that from observations?

I haven't tested that notion because I would first have to sort people I know or meet into degree of intelligence, then test them somehow on changing their opinions. That seems a bit unscientific and likely flawed.

No stress. The rest of us in the world have to learn to cope with the peculiarities of American. Aluminum and all.

I think the question I ask/ statement id make, is that if those that we are looking too to solve the worlds problems, are more stuck in their own hubris, then we do have a problem.

Also I can understand, given that, why there can be a perceived lack of trust in authority and maybe why some of the "out there' conspiracies linger.

quote:

Originally posted by Magine Enigam:

quote:

What I found interesting was that when wrong, intelligent people seem to have a bigger on average issue with changing their opinion.

Is that from observations?

I haven't tested that notion because I would first have to sort people I know or meet into degree of intelligence, then test them somehow on changing their opinions. That seems a bit unscientific and likely flawed.

That work was done all ready if you payed attention.

Neutral topic and people of higher numeracy get answer correct more. Partisan topic and they fail at higher percentage according too their pre held beliefs. It seems they do so by imagining reasons why the data could be errant.

Thinking things through might be fuzzy for me since it's getting late here. But I'll have a go at it.

Dots to connect:

Lots of people presumably are looking to Trump to solve some perceived problems, world, national, whatever.

Trump is definitely stuck in his own hubris.

The "out there" conspiracies exist and linger, and lack of trust can be explained with the previous cognitive dissonance analysis. People fill in the blank spaces with BS of their own making, and believing others, because they don't have the tools to do better.

quote:

Originally posted by shankspony:

quote:

Originally posted by Magine Enigam:

quote:

What I found interesting was that when wrong, intelligent people seem to have a bigger on average issue with changing their opinion.

Is that from observations?

I haven't tested that notion because I would first have to sort people I know or meet into degree of intelligence, then test them somehow on changing their opinions. That seems a bit unscientific and likely flawed.

That work was done all ready if you payed attention.

Neutral topic and people of higher numeracy get answer correct more. Partisan topic and they fail at higher percentage according too their pre held beliefs. It seems they do so by imagining reasons why the data could be errant.

I have paid attention, specifically and especially herein. In that realm I can accept your second paragraph, based on observation, the distinction of neutral vs partisan especially. I think it's reasonable to extrapolate that to the larger population.

Now that I think about it as you explained, I see your point. Say we have a good mechanic whose mistakes in his field are infrequent, but his mistakes in political justifications are rampant, for example.

In our own ways, perhaps we have been saying the same things.

Yeh Ive never felt this particular topic is a disagreement. I more felt I had an interesting add on.

Im not sure how to put this concisely. And Im not trying to excuse behaviours. I'll give it a try.

ordinary people who maybe don't have the learned ability to argue their point. See "proclamations' from people in positions of power, that they instinctively know to be false/wrong/unjust. But lack the ability to express why. The people in power might well believe they are correct. This is not always, but a few cases out of many get remembered for arguments sake.
It may well create a perception of collusion or at least frustration in communities and lead too claims of conspiracy etc. And counter conspiracy.

An example might be Dr Fauci as I see his name come up in another thread.
Covid and how it was handled by those in power, when looked at through the lens of this topic. might well be a part explanation of why we currently get the election results we do.

quote:

might well be a part explanation of why we currently get the election results we do.

Well, that kinda centers it.

I don't want to discuss Dr. Fauci, but he is a good example. There's so much BS, belief in fiction, with any topic about him and associated stuff. The anti-vaxxers are the antithesis of Fauci, but they "know" stuff. The whole episode of the pandemic is a prelude simply due to the vast burden on reality by those who believe in fiction and are susceptible to liars like Trump. Those operating in reality just can't get past them.

Here's perhaps a better example:

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news...846d7d7e282c15&ei=16

Why Trump's attempt to dismiss the New York hush money case warrants attention
Story by Lisa Rubin • 2d • 4 min read

(excerpt)

It's tempting to tune out. But this latest Trump brief demands attention, perhaps less because of how it could affect the future course of the litigation and more because of what it signals about the Trump administration in waiting. That's especially true given that it was signed by only two lawyers — Todd Blanche and Emil Bove — whom Trump has picked for top Justice Department spots in his new administration.

Here are three things worth noting about the new brief:

It contains several statements that are misleading at best.

The brief contains multiple plain statements of purported fact that run the gamut from misleading to baseless. For example, there is no proof that the Biden Justice Department “sent” Matthew Colangelo, who served as the chief aide to Assistant Attorney General Vanita Gupta, to the Manhattan DA's office, much less that the DOJ and Bragg's team were in cahoots to “unfairly target President Trump in this empty and lawless case.”

(there's more)

===============================================

"what it signals about the Trump administration in waiting"

Like we don't already have signal enough!!!

Trump and Team have sufficiently proven that lies and dis/misinformation work so well as to alter reality - feeding belief in fiction. It got him elected.

We have seen a lot so far but to use a cliche, we ain't seen nothin' yet except the tip of the berg. Another cliche saying that's relevant relating to Trump's second term - the old redneck saying on a NY scale: "Hey youse all, watch this".

But back to my point on the bigger scale of things. Trump winning the election is just one indicator, although significant, of the themes posted above from Noam Chomsky and Yuval Noah Harari.

See the fifth post in this thread for a refresher.

Another indicator is the ratings of Fox News. They capture and foment the biggest audience in the media dedicated to fomenting and feeding and manipulating and profiting off Belief in Fiction. It's an enviable model for other media sources chasing ratings, perhaps eroding ethical journalism in ways difficult to detect.

For your convenience, so you don't need to scroll up:

quote:

Originally posted by Magine Enigam:

I think it's an odd time that we're living in, considering history and human nature.

The last part of the video link above is the most interesting part to me.

https://youtu.be/VY9PZvK6CZs?s...LjOK1zzmFTmrw1&t=951

Here's the last part of another video relating to this topic"

https://youtu.be/thZUMaGEE-8?s...XDxdT_gkcLzNl&t=4088

We can split the atom but not distinguish truth. Our information is failing us | Yuval Noah Harari

quote:

Originally posted by Magine Enigam:

quote:

What I found interesting was that when wrong, intelligent people seem to have a bigger on average issue with changing their opinion.

Is that from observations?

I haven't tested that notion because I would first have to sort people I know or meet into degree of intelligence, then test them somehow on changing their opinions. That seems a bit unscientific and likely flawed.

I had a friend, now deceased, with an measured IQ of 160. Now and then, I'd remind him that if a chain of reasoning starts with bad premises, the only thing that would do for him is get him to a wrong answer in about half the time it takes me.

Plenty of distractions from underlying realities. We are Eloi, and the Morlocks are busy...

That's a good example Tom.

quote:

“It's easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled.”
― Mark Twain

I have found that people who are INVESTED in always being correct are
1:generally better at being right than most
2: there appears to be two classes here - STEM folks and non-STEM folks -- STEM folks, if you show them where the assumption/postulate was wrong, will quickly rejigger their thoughts, and accept the results. Many will thank you for helping them see. Non-STEM folks don't have that flexibility, and since they have declared they are correct, must be correct, and can't take "losing face" over being corrected.

Yes, i have argued with engineers in public over stuff, and they are convinced they are correct, and the SECOND that they understand they missed something, they are equally convinced of the new results (and yes, i get that this is also me) -

but non-stem folks, when shown that 2^2 actually is 4, argue about being tricked

quote:

Originally posted by TomP:

Plenty of distractions from underlying realities. We are Eloi, and the Morlocks are busy...

That's interesting for several reasons:

https://youtu.be/bl7yBwKBLDw?si=1RbCQ6-ofg90D-Sa

Eloi Meaning
Video shows what Eloi means. A metaphor for any population or group of persons who have been domesticated or dumbed down..

Also:
At that hour Jesus cried aloud, "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani," which means, "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?"

Also:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eloi

Also, that word and H.G. Wells' The Time Machine are not familiar to me.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morlock

The relationship between the Morlocks and the Eloi is symbiotic: the Eloi are clothed, fed and possibly bred by the Morlocks, and the Morlocks consume the Eloi as a food source. Seeing this, the Time Traveller speculates that the relationship developed from a class distinction present in his own time: the Morlocks are descendants of the working class who were relegated to working and living underground so that the rich upper class could live in luxury on the surface. With time, the roles altered – the surface people grew apathetic and helpless to the point that they were no longer masters of their subterranean counterparts. However, the Morlocks must have continued to tend to the Eloi (the protagonist guesses this may at first have been out of tradition or intrinsic habit) and at some point began using them as livestock.

quote:

Originally posted by Magine Enigam:
Eloi

Also, that word and H.G. Wells' The Time Machine are not familiar to me.

wait -- do what? it was required reading in my FIFTH grade, by sweet Mrs Ferguson -- with a book report -
How about:
journey to the center of the earth?
wrinkle in time?
have spacesuit, will travel?
Barsoom books?

quote:

it was required reading in my FIFTH grade, by sweet Mrs Ferguson

So, that's where it all started.

My fifth-grade teacher, sweet Mrs. Lockerman, shielded us from fiction, believing that should be reserved for adults who could decipher the difference in fiction and reality. She must have known that Truth is stranger than fiction anyway.

https://youtu.be/nIeUigGZktk?si=413UFy8jzDYJrsq2

America’s Lonely Future: David Frum on Trump’s “Predatory” Foreign Policy | Amanpour and Company

quote:

Originally posted by Magine Enigam:

quote:

it was required reading in my FIFTH grade, by sweet Mrs Ferguson

So, that's where it all started.

My fifth-grade teacher, sweet Mrs. Lockerman, shielded us from fiction, believing that should be reserved for adults who could decipher the difference in fiction and reality. She must have known that Truth is stranger than fiction anyway.

oh, honey ..

most schools have this special room, where they keep the books and maps, called a library, with age appropriate books - and literally every title in my above post were written as juvenile fiction ...

you poor thing

You will be happy, perhaps surprised that my quoted post is fiction.

Yet you believed it.

So easy.

quote:

Originally posted by Magine Enigam:
You will be happy, perhaps surprised that my quote is fiction.

Yet you believed it.

So easy.

hahahahhahaa ...

sure thing, it was "fiction" ... it's protected speech - you go, gurl

surprisingly, you are only upset after being called on it ... hmmmmmmm

gaslighting 101 "it was a JOKE" ..

hey, dems gunna do what dems gunna do

quote:

gaslighting 101

?

Is that one of those "takes one to know one" sorta thigs?

"Dump Trump" --- Fiction that no-one believed.

But I don't mind teasing you - gaslighting you about it anyway.