The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Guns, Politics, Gunsmithing & Reloading The Political Forum Michigan Parents get 10 and 15 years for mass murder committed by their childGo | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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“These convictions confirm repeated acts or lack of acts that could have halted an oncoming runaway train, about repeatedly ignoring things that make a reasonable person feel the hair on the back of their neck stand up,” the judge said. “Opportunity knocked over and over again, louder and louder and was ignored. No one’s no one answered. And these two people should have and sure didn’t.” Matthews said, “James Crumbley provided “unfettered access to a gun or guns as well as ammunition in your home,” while Jennifer Crumbley “glorified the the use and possession of these weapons.” Those are the words of the presiding Judge. Read it and take it to hear. The issue is whether there were sufficient facts that made the child’s actions foreseeable to the parents. What they knew or should have known concerning their child. We will see if the Michigan Appellate Courts uphold these convictions. Even if they do not, the issue remains. Parents ignore the warning signs and provide unfettered firearm access to their child at all our peril. Take responsible steps to secure firearms and ammunition. A conviction does not bring back lives or a parent’s child who commits suicide with parents’ gun. One may not be required by law. Again, the appellate courts will tell us. One should be required by internal moral compass. Yes, I would pass a law tomorrow nationally that firearms in the home with juveniles have to use reasonable precautions to secure those firearms with liability for juvenile misuse when firearms are not stored reasonably. I saw a juvenile break into a father’s gun safe with bars and a hammer. That is reasonable precautions. | ||
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I don't know the specifics, but I'm glad these two were convicted. It's unfortunate these successfully bred in the first place. As I've said before, I believe parents should be responsible for their children and as far as I can see these two parents are murderers along with their boy. This certainly isn't correction or justice, this is punishment and all three deserve it. | |||
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Judge and juries got this one right. There were so many off ramps but the parents just kept going. And these parents are horrible human beings. I have wondered if they didn’t buy him the gun thinking that he might use it on himself, making their lives easier in the long run. These were really shitty parents. Appeals are inevitable. Ineffective assistance of counsel is always a basis of appeal and that is true in this case. Both of the defense attorneys were unqualified to handle cases like these. Even yesterday Jennifer Crumblys attorney could keep her mouth shut when she should have. I’m not saying a more qualified attorney would have gotten them off but it would have resulted in a better trial record that would make success on appeal less likely. They have a right to appeal and counsel will be appointed because they see indigent, but don’t be surprised if a pro gun group retains counsel and funds their appeals because god forbid anyone be held accountable for “exercising their second amendment rights.” With credit for time served (30-months) they will be eligible for parole in 7.5 years. | |||
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As a gun owner and/or parent the facts of the case will make you sick and leave you with absolutely no sympathy for the Crumblys. They aren’t getting what they deserve but they are getting all the judge could give them. | |||
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I am a bit torn on this. Part of me says, yahoo, the idiots got what they deserve. The other part says.... what is next? A kid looses his drivers license for to many speeding tickets. Takes his parents car and kills someone. Can the parents be held responsible? Will this open the door to the unknown? | |||
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I would hang no problem w those parents being tried. They know and are responsible to take reasonable precautions. In KY, a parent has to come to court when a child gets a speeding ticket. I have moved for them to lose custody who refuse to addresses such continuing behavior. | |||
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I feel exactly the same way. This is a slippery slope. You will see all the prosecutorial type lawyers here cheering it on but there will be unintended consequences. Yes they were bad folks. Yes they made awful decisions. No, I don’t have sympathy for them. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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The Federal Right to effective counsel was gutted about 2 years ago . Unknown how Michigan state right extends. A state has to give at least Federally incorporated due process rights. A state can always extend more protection. The appeal will focus on approximate causation and duty. Both resolve around foreseeability. Then, ineffective assistance of counsel. | |||
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Another adult being held responsible for a child's actions: https://www.npr.org/2024/04/10...harged-child-neglect An assistant principal who ignored warnings that a six year old had brought a gun to school and the kid subsequently shot a teacher. I cannot understand these parents who don't secure and restrict access to firearms kept in the home when they have children. I wonder if the six year old's parent's were charged in this case? -Every damn thing is your own fault if you are any good. | |||
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The mother was charged under VA law for failing to secure firearms in the home, but that charge was dismissed for a plea to other charges. | |||
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So car keys should be kept in a lock box if their child speeds? What happens if they get a duplicate made unknowingly? Is there any end to it, or do we go down the road of all parents are guilty of something, we just dont know what yet. Again, part of me is glad the Michigan parents got what they did. But Heym, you have shown that anyone could be found guilty of something their kid did in your view of things. | |||
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Big distinction between guns and cars. They didn’t leave the keys to the family minivan where he could get them, they bought and gave him unfettered access to a weapon specifically designed to kill. They didn’t buy him a couple of boxes of range ammo, they bought a box of ammo intended to be used for self defense. They knew their son was struggling with mental illness. That morning, in the school’s guidance office, his parents were shown drawings he made that morning depicting killing students. The school suggested that they take him home, but they didn’t want to because it wasn’t convenient for them. I understand the this is a slippery slope concern, but it’s not. The standard for a level of negligence to support these charges is so high that it is impossible to even comprehend what the Crumblys did. | |||
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My car keys was in response to Heym, who want to charge parents who leave their keys out. As I said, the Crumbly's were wrong on so many levels I hope it deters others. But...I worry non-the-less. Heym is a prime example. He is arrogant and self righteous. He is not a parent, and religious. All things that give me pause when they have to power to charge someone in cases like that. He thinks he should be able to control what ARPF members on here can say, to the point he said it's "his job" to do so. | |||
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I think we've talked about before and we've all certainly seen the way modern parenting detaches from their little charges. We've been plunking the kids down in front of VCR tapes, sticking them in after school programs and sports, leaving "Little Johnny" with the Boy Scout leader and the church official for decades. I've said it here before, I take complete, total responsibility for my kid. What she does or doesn't do is my fault. What happens or doesn't happen to her is my fault. Some of the parents around me not only leave education to the public school and not their home, but also leave feeding, bathing and clothing to the newest total stranger that moved to Dillingham one week ago to be the next or new elementary school teacher. Maybe parents need to be held a little more accountable for their kids. | |||
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I agree that lots of parents don’t do an even half-assed job of raising their kids. The vast majority don’t shoot up schools. If the parents are responsible for their kids acts, then it would seem by definition that the kid is not. IMO, this kid knew what he was doing was wrong. Hell, the teachers saw he was in trouble. All they did was punt it to the parents, who pretty obviously didn’t want to address it. Why aren’t the teachers and the school up on the same charges? I think the kid knew what he was doing was wrong, and he deserves the death penalty, if for no other reason than he’s permanently broken morally. He won’t become a productive citizen. He chose to act as he did, and should pay the price. The parents obviously didn’t follow safe storage rules. If that’s a crime there, then they deserve to pay that penalty. But I always thought that you take responsibility for your own actions. These parents failed their kid horribly. They failed society as well. But I don’t see the legal system lining up to put every bad parent in prison for multiple counts of homicide. I don’t see lawyers, as an example, being charged with homicide when they get a client off and he then goes out and kills someone predictably given his prior charges. | |||
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"If the parents are responsible for their kids acts, then it would seem by definition that the kid is not." - The kid was charged with four counts of 1st Degree Murder (and multiple counts of attempted murder). The parents were charged with Involuntary Manslaughter, which requires proof of a very high level of gross negligence. "Why aren’t the teachers and the school up on the same charges?" - The AG wanted to charge and conducted a rigorous investigation. When suing a governmental agency there is the issue of governmental immunity. Beyond that the AG came to the conclusion they would not be able to prove the school was negligent to the point of being able to meet the burden of proof. "I think the kid knew what he was doing was wrong, and he deserves the death penalty, if for no other reason than he’s permanently broken morally. He won’t become a productive citizen. He chose to act as he did, and should pay the price." - Michigan has never had a death penalty. Regardless, the death penalty is not a deterrent to crime. He will be paying for what he did, every day for the rest of his life. "But I always thought that you take responsibility for your own actions. These parents failed their kid horribly. They failed society as well. But I don’t see the legal system lining up to put every bad parent in prison for multiple counts of homicide." -The culpability of the parents is based on their extreme level of negligence. it's not just because their kid killed fellow students, at the hart of the case is the parents negligence in giving their son the gun and ammunition and ignoring numerous glaring red flags that indicated his ideation with shooting up a school. Anyone who thinks this case opens the door for parents to be held labile for crimes committed by their children don't understand what this case was about. | |||
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Not understanding an issue is no impediment to Dr. Butler having one or more (usually more) strongly-held opinions about it. "If you’re innocent why are you taking the Fifth Amendment?”- Donald Trump | |||
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The parent and child have different liability based on the mens rea of the offense. Parents are not charged w intentional murder. Confound it, that part of this is not hard. Oh yes, it does open the door for parents to be charged for the intentional acts of their children when the facts make those intentional acts foreseeable to the parents who have a duty to then act to stop, prevent, or limit. | |||
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No, fundamentally it was as you put in one line here. That the AG thought they could get a conviction here. How can someone be negligent in giving access to someone else who then makes a responsible choice to misuse the item? By that standard, narcotics (pain medicine), automobiles (transportation), firearms (defense and recreation), knives (food prep) and so on are on a legally slippery slope to being a risk to own. All you need to do is get a DA, a judge, and 12 people (in some places) to agree. When’s the last time a parent was held criminally liable for the act of their child? This wasn’t just being found guilty of neglecting to control an item, this was found guilty of killing someone, albeit because they didn’t stop someone else. No, I don’t expect there to be immediate rush to convict parents for everything, but now that it’s been opened, it will gradually move that way. I get responsibility for my acts or lack of them… professionally I deal with it daily. I have no issue with being taken in front of a judge for such a lack of professionalism that someone died because I didn’t do my job. I do find it a problem if I do everything right, and then someone under me screws up and I have to go to prison over it. I get this was a particularly bad case of parental misbehavior. I just have a logical problem with the parents being convicted of killing people when they did no active role. Michigan has no death penalty now. Neither does MN. That doesn’t mean I can’t think it appropriate for a murderer who no one has a doubt actually pulled the trigger with malice.
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I think there's plenty of examples of parents being held responsible and liable for their kids misbehavior and I don't think it's well thought out to suggest that if one is guilty the other isn't. Murder and Accessory to Murder? Conspiracy to commit,....? Come on Man, the kid murdered and his parents assisted. If a twelve year old dents his neighbors car door or knocks out a window with a baseball are you telling me you don't think Mom and Dad are not on the hook? The girls leave a gate open after petting the horses and the horse runs out on the highway and gets killed the horse owner will pursue the girls? If my kid is truant the cops come after me, not her. The cops think I am responsible for my girl going to school, not the educators. Look around you. Look at the way these kids dress, talk and behave. Darn right the parents should be held responsible. | |||
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You are talking about the scope of the rule of law. And, I agree. Also, you are talking about the degenerate parental care and guidance, which I also agree with. I must be a conservative.  ************* Real conservatives aren't radicalized. Thus "radicalized conservative" is an oxymoron. Yet there are many radicalized republicans. "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis Per my far-right friend: "reality sucks" D.J. Trump aka Trumpism's Founding Farter, aka Farter Martyr. Qualifications: flatulence - mental, oral and anal. | |||
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So let's play what-if. What if you're in surgery as a doctor and you smell booze on the breath of a nurse under your supervision. But you figure it isn't your business, so you don't report it to hospital officials. Pretty soon, every time you encounter that nurse, you smell booze. You notice it appears to be affecting her job performance and her speech is sometimes slurred. But you don't report her. Then her actions are implicated in the death of a patient. Do you report her now? No, because now it might be embarrassing or shameful to you for not reporting her earlier. Do you see where this goes? Is there a point where you agree the doctor should bear some of the responsibility if another patient dies? | |||
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For Scott, one of my favorite movie scenes: https://youtube.com/shorts/vkT...?si=b-EdSNwcLXXr3pu4 ************* Real conservatives aren't radicalized. Thus "radicalized conservative" is an oxymoron. Yet there are many radicalized republicans. "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis Per my far-right friend: "reality sucks" D.J. Trump aka Trumpism's Founding Farter, aka Farter Martyr. Qualifications: flatulence - mental, oral and anal. | |||
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Financially, not criminally. If your daughter pops a peer in the eye, you don't go to prison for assault on a minor, do you? As to responsibility for the act, whoever is responsible is responsible. Your kid, yes, you pay for damages... and if they are young, neither of you is going to jail. Kind of the whole idea behind juvenile law, isn't it? They are not responsible so you can't punish them like an adult.
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So will there be civil charges brought against them in addition to the criminal charges? | |||
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As you asking if the parents will be sued? Sure but for what? They don’t have a pot to piss in and they never will. | |||
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https://youtube.com/shorts/o7I...?si=7Av1AXE_JTxgvTbj ************* Real conservatives aren't radicalized. Thus "radicalized conservative" is an oxymoron. Yet there are many radicalized republicans. "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis Per my far-right friend: "reality sucks" D.J. Trump aka Trumpism's Founding Farter, aka Farter Martyr. Qualifications: flatulence - mental, oral and anal. | |||
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The parents have tort liability exposure. The convictions bring a higher burden of proof satisfies the civil case in chief, but damages would still need to be tried. | |||
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That is correct. My point was they have no assets to satisfy a judgement. As an attorney, why would I waste my time suing when there is nothing to recover. | |||
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Dont they still sue in case of future income, a movie or book deal? | |||
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I don’t disagree that I would have some responsibility. Murder? No. I would undoubtedly lose my license and most of my worldly goods if I did that, especially if it was proven I knew and didn’t report. After this case, I’d probably be looking at a manslaughter charge as well, but before? Just the above. How about what would be my responsibility if I reported it to the hospital and its agents (chief of nursing, CEO, hospital medical director, and they ignored me, and they kept assigning that nurse to my cases? | |||
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And the parents are not guilty of murder. You would face criminal Liability if you let a nurse in the operating room you knew it should be known to be drunk when that nurse caused death. You keep incorrectly inflating murder with manslaughter. They are as different asthe Sun and Moon. | |||
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So just curious. I live in a very rural, small town area. I see many of the kids that live here now and then at the store, cookouts and such. I am very tuned into aggression tells. I make teens look me in the eye when I talk to them. I ask how they are, what they are up to. If I'm triggered by any response, I make a point of keeping an eye on them. I have two at this point that have accepted my offer for workouts, wrestling, boxing or whatever their wish. Does anyone reach out in a suburban or city neighborhood like that? In their area? Or is it a rural thing to try and reach kids that are troubled? | |||
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Are they both homicide charges or not? If someone is killed by a drunk driver, the drunk driver gets manslaughter charges usually.
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Homicide is causing the death of mother human being. Kill another human being, it's homicide even if the killing was justified. All murders are homicides but all homicides are not murder. | |||
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Not all homicide Ms are murder. Reckless homicide is not murder. The parents are not guilty of murder. Murder is a very specific type of homicide. One is not the other. | |||
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I get that not all killings are legally murder. But recall that Chauvin was found guilty of murder due to his negligence involved. I also know of many murders that don’t get 10-15 year sentences. These parents were found guilty of a homicide, despite not being the person who is being held criminally responsible for the murders. I’m not against them being found guilty of inadequate monitoring of their child or not storing the gun properly, or illegal transfer of a firearm. I’m not upset that they are serving that long of a sentence (although the hypocrisy of them serving that length while so many others who are convicted of a more directly responsible killing serve way less bothers me as well… it’s not like you will reform these two into folks less selfish by prison.) I do understand that legally you can try multiple people for a murder and convict all of them. My point is I have a MORAL issue with finding the parents guilty of homicide when the independent actor child actually planned, committed, and has been found guilty of murder. As others have said, I’m worried about this being a slippery slope used for political gain prosecution going forward. | |||
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Some states allow gross neglect murder. Some states do not. These parents were not charged or convicted of murder. You do not get it. The difference is the mens rea. The elements of the convoyed offenses are not the same as murder. | |||
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Would you mind pointing out where I said they were? Hell, you are the one who called it that (look at the thread title and who started the discussion...) I was rather particular in saying homicide. They were charged with being responsible for the death of these children when their son decided to go out and kill them. He was charged with murder, so I assume using your logic that he had to have been found competent to formulate the necessary intent required to be charged with murder. They were charged and convicted of homicide by being neglectful of properly supervising their kid if the reporting I read (and folks here) are correct.
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It wasn’t that they were just neglectful, they were grossly negligent. Not getting him the care he needed to address his mental illness was being neglectful. Ignoring his declining mental health and buying him a handgun and ammunition and letting him have unfettered access to it and ignoring his ideation of shooting up his school, disregarding the concerns expressed that morning by school officials, and refusing to take him home that morning, knowing the totality of the circumstances, was grossly negligent. But even that is an oversimplification of the facts. And, after days of testimony from witnesses, law enforcement, investigators, and medical experts the mother took the stand and when asked if she could go back should she have done the same things, she said “no.” After all of this she refused to believe that she and or her husband did anything wrong. This case was not about neglect, it was about grossly negligent behavior that resulted ok the death of four students and the wounding of several others in a situation that would have been avoided had the parents had taken action. | |||
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The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Guns, Politics, Gunsmithing & Reloading The Political Forum Michigan Parents get 10 and 15 years for mass murder committed by their child
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