The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Guns, Politics, Gunsmithing & Reloading The Political Forum Seems a conundrumGo | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
One of Us |
Strikes me as odd the conficting opinions on methods of war between the conflict in Gaza and the conflict in Ukraine. Especially given our recent experiences. In Ukraine, Vlad and Russia bad, all bad. "Evil Empire ". Our participants here in the pf favor no negotiation, no diplomacy. Total War. Can't talk to the bad guys, "we don't negotiate with terrorists!". Trump can't talk to Vlad without Zelensky in the room and by golly whatever we gave Ukraine last year should be doubled this year! Russias capitulation is the only acceptable solution. I don't particularly disagree if it matters. On the other hand, in Gaza the Islamic Terrorists have become the orphaned puppy on Facebook. "Rules of Engagement " must be adhered to, The Taliban It's been said here in the pf that Vlad should be treated as Hitler was, (fire bombing, starving the civilian populace, total war,) but Hamas needs to have "Democracy Introduced". Given our experience in Afghanistan and Iraq, given the current regime in Syria and Somalia, having survived 9/11, I really don't understand why the West takes umbrage at Israel's efforts to destroy Hamas. Who here other than Medved really believes Hamas and their ilk intends anymore than "Death to America!" I take that back, Medved believes it too and supports it. | ||
|
| One of Us |
you are making thing personal: but i will write back to you that you believed in all palestinians are terrorists because they are all muslims and are all supporting hamas ... so contrary to you i believe in peace but negociation should be done with ukraine and as well with palestinians which are not all muslims but not hamas which contrary to you do not believe that all palestinians are hamas supporters ... and yes like it or not it was UN nations to have a 2 states with israel and palestine there but of course UN decisions are worth it only when it fits your agenda. i never claimed death to america contrary to what you think and you like to stir the pot but your country started an economic war with the whole world including canada and for that i will not forget like or not but i imagine you will not understand what i wrote because it doesnt fit your agenda and the one of your supreme leader ... | |||
|
| One of Us |
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wik..._Russo-Ukrainian_War Now that's impressive. Vlad has donated 1 million of his nation's sons to his clusterfuck in Ukraine. Bet that number surprised most here, am I right? But no crocodile tears! Where's the outrage? Where's the umbrage? Crickets. Why? Slaughtered Russians ain't mourned because they ain't Muslim? Russia is the aggressor and has earned responsibility for its losses. How does Hamas not earn the same responsibility? | |||
|
| One of Us |
I saw an article yesterday about the anticipated meeting between Putin and Trump in Alaska. I didn't read the whole thing and don't want to spend the time to find it now. But the gist of it was that Russians cheer the meeting and favor no concessions. ************* “Those who control the present, control the past and those who control the past control the future.” George Orwell, 1984 https://www.google.com/search?...sclient=gws-wiz-serp Degenerate 1:1 1 Then Trump said, "Let Us re-make a Nation in MY Image, after My likeness, to rule over everything in the Nation, and over all the earth itself and every creature that crawls upon it". Degenerate 1:2 2 Then Trump said, "Vengeance is mine, I will repay on your behalf." Degenerate 1:3 3 "My Kingdom come, My will be done." "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis O.J. Trump aka Trumpism's Founding Farter, aka Farter Martyr. "Be careful. When a democracy is sick, fascism comes to its bedside, but it is not to inquire about its health." - Albert Camus | |||
|
| One of Us |
There are two issues that apply to both that I object to: 1) Expansion of territorial claims by both Israel and Russia. And 2) Methods of conduct that are targeting non-combatants. Sub issues are Russia has no rightful claim/war aims. They are the aggressor attempting to rebuild the Russian Empire. Israel was barbarically attacked. However, that does not give them a blank check to expel and starve into non-existence Palestine. Israel’s actions are also counter productive to long term security. | |||
|
| One of Us |
The first article in the search is the one I saw. There are several others. https://www.google.com/search?...yAcA&sclient=gws-wiz ************* “Those who control the present, control the past and those who control the past control the future.” George Orwell, 1984 https://www.google.com/search?...sclient=gws-wiz-serp Degenerate 1:1 1 Then Trump said, "Let Us re-make a Nation in MY Image, after My likeness, to rule over everything in the Nation, and over all the earth itself and every creature that crawls upon it". Degenerate 1:2 2 Then Trump said, "Vengeance is mine, I will repay on your behalf." Degenerate 1:3 3 "My Kingdom come, My will be done." "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis O.J. Trump aka Trumpism's Founding Farter, aka Farter Martyr. "Be careful. When a democracy is sick, fascism comes to its bedside, but it is not to inquire about its health." - Albert Camus | |||
|
| One of Us |
I haven't seen anybody on this board express support or sympathy for Hamas. It's the intentional starvation of the people of Gaza by the Israeli army that is the issue. As for the Russians....they invaded a sovereign country without provocation and with the intent of subjugating it's people and annexing their lands. Hitler's Germany comes to mind. I don't see a conundrum in relation to either one of those broad issues. In the details? Sure. As usual. | |||
|
| one of us |
I am wondering if there is any symbolism in the choice of meeting places. The US bought Alaska at a time when Russia was short on funds after the loss of the Crimean War (not bought from Alaska's original owners, some of whom were probably not aware of being bought and sold). Does that choice represent American domination or Russian primacy? Maybe Trump should offer to buy Crimea and rent some of it out to Russia for their naval base (which they will never voluntarily give up), and the rest to Ukraine for a seaport. TomP Our country, right or wrong. When right, to be kept right, when wrong to be put right. Carl Schurz (1829 - 1906) | |||
|
| One of Us |
I think you snarkly reached the wrong conclusion with your Muslim comment/question. Regarding Vlad's donation of a million casualties to his cause of restoring the Russian Empire, that raises another question especially if the Russian people in general support the cause and it justifies the casualties. The end justifies the means sort of thing. IOW, if Putin's regime and propaganda can favorably influence support for a cause that has resulted in so many casualties, what are the implications? For example, what is the real reason and goals behind the invasion of Ukraine? Is it part of a bigger goal such as restoration of the empire? Will Putin ever be satisfied? Will the Russian people ever be satisfied? Is Putin's will really the will of the people? And so forth. The ironic thing is that the two, Putin and Trump, have empire aspirations, based in authoritarianism. What effect does that have on the setup? And, assuming that the populace under both regimes are mostly supportive, or at least complicit, how is that facilitated? The answer to that should be obviously complex, as to the means, and the psychological aspects. ************* “Those who control the present, control the past and those who control the past control the future.” George Orwell, 1984 https://www.google.com/search?...sclient=gws-wiz-serp Degenerate 1:1 1 Then Trump said, "Let Us re-make a Nation in MY Image, after My likeness, to rule over everything in the Nation, and over all the earth itself and every creature that crawls upon it". Degenerate 1:2 2 Then Trump said, "Vengeance is mine, I will repay on your behalf." Degenerate 1:3 3 "My Kingdom come, My will be done." "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis O.J. Trump aka Trumpism's Founding Farter, aka Farter Martyr. "Be careful. When a democracy is sick, fascism comes to its bedside, but it is not to inquire about its health." - Albert Camus | |||
|
| One of Us |
Read this article: https://www.msn.com/en-us/news...Mmi?ocid=socialshare Excerpt: Russia’s special economic envoy, Kirill Dmitriev, a key interlocutor between the Kremlin and the Trump administration, said the decision to hold the summit in Alaska was symbolically important for the U.S.-Russian partnership. The U.S. purchased the territory from Russia in 1867 for $7.2 million, or about 2 cents per acre. “Born as Russian America — Orthodox roots, forts, fur trade — Alaska echoes those ties and makes the U.S. an Arctic nation,” Dmitriev wrote on X. ************* “Those who control the present, control the past and those who control the past control the future.” George Orwell, 1984 https://www.google.com/search?...sclient=gws-wiz-serp Degenerate 1:1 1 Then Trump said, "Let Us re-make a Nation in MY Image, after My likeness, to rule over everything in the Nation, and over all the earth itself and every creature that crawls upon it". Degenerate 1:2 2 Then Trump said, "Vengeance is mine, I will repay on your behalf." Degenerate 1:3 3 "My Kingdom come, My will be done." "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis O.J. Trump aka Trumpism's Founding Farter, aka Farter Martyr. "Be careful. When a democracy is sick, fascism comes to its bedside, but it is not to inquire about its health." - Albert Camus | |||
|
| One of Us |
I agree that both are an issue with territorial expansion. I also think that deliberately targeting civilians is something that should be your last choice. Both the Israeli government and Trump’s meeting with Putin (without Zelensky at the table) suffer from concerns about the fairness and impartiality of the actors. Trump isn’t going to get Ukraine on board for a one sided resolution. Zelensky might well blame Trump for any concession that is made, but at the end of the day, it will be an agreement between Russia and Ukraine. We have no real ability to force either party to agree. I just hope Mrs. Trump reminds her husband about his statement the other day. (The one where she reminded him that Putin made agreements with him and then reneged the next day.) If Trump’s diplomacy can end the war on acceptable grounds for Ukraine, IMO, he does deserve a peace prize. We will have to see what comes of it- but his track record with Putin isn’t too good. I’m not betting anything is going to come from this. | |||
|
| One of Us |
Other than arranging the meeting and bowing before Putin, I haven't seen any "diplomacy" from trump. | |||
|
One of Us |
I read somewhere that Trump has been practicing swallowing whole bananas prior to the meeting.  Vote Trump- Putin’s best friend… To quote a former AND CURRENT Trumpiteer - DUMP TRUMP | |||
|
| One of Us |
We learned on Vietnam, and then forgot, you cannot kill your way to victory. The body count, factory line, war did not work. McNamara and Westmoreland war of inhalation just failed. US Citizens lost faith in the kill numbers to victory. Australia has recognized the State of Palestine today. Israel has not helped its security. When this War started, everyone understood that Israel had to respond to barbarism by Hams. Now, the State of Palestine technically is a reality as Europe and European allies recognize the State of Palestine. Israel is isolating itself, and made Palestine. I would not readmit Russia to the global system either while they conduct their war to subjugate Ukraine. | |||
|
| One of Us |
He doesn't know what the word means. Give me a home where the buffalo roam and I'll show you a house full of buffalo shit. | |||
|
| one of us |
Trump and Putin will want to divide up Ukraine's resources among themselves. Classic two wolves and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. Ukraine may just say no to Holomodor II and keep fighting. TomP Our country, right or wrong. When right, to be kept right, when wrong to be put right. Carl Schurz (1829 - 1906) | |||
|
Moderator |
what is it with liberals and fascination with "gay stuff" ??? hmmmm opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
|
| One of Us |
I voted for orange jesus twice. After Jan 6, it was obvious, even to me, that he is a danger to democracy. Obviously you feel differently.I didn’t vote in the last election other than local races. For someone who claims he doesn’t support Cheeto man, you spend a lot of time defending him. Wonder why??  Vote Trump- Putin’s best friend… To quote a former AND CURRENT Trumpiteer - DUMP TRUMP | |||
|
| One of Us |
I believe it, I'd expect no less from Russians. I don't think I've seen any concessions offered by the Palestinians/ Hamas. | |||
|
| One of Us |
| |||
|
| One of Us |
So the Russians support the cause and it justifies the casualties and that's ok, but the Palestinians do not? I'm deeply skeptical. | |||
|
| One of Us |
Israel is not having civilian casualties by engaging Hamas behind human shields. They were systematically starving the entire civilian population. They are committed to the annexation of Gaza. The fact you use Hamas/Palestine is the point. | |||
|
| One of Us |
I'm skeptical too. Note that I used the word "if". And I didn't say "that's ok". You seem to be trying to compare atrocities and make some moral judgments relating to people's support or non-support for the so-deemed cause and divergent justifications. The way I look at it is there are aggressors and victims. For examples, Russian power that be, Putin and his enforcers, are the aggressors. Ukraine as a whole is the victim, especially the people not in power. Then there are the million Russian casualties, and Ukrainian likewise. I think Ukraine has more civilian casualties than Russia. If the population of Russia mostly supports the aggression, then they too are victims of an ideology, or manipulation or propaganda. Much of the same analysis unfolds with the Israeli - Hamas - Palestine scenario. There are some differences, such as Hamas is an aggressor and so is Israel. The people of Israel are victims, and so are the Palestinians. Are those in power, the aggressors, making moral judgments at all and consider the victims? Or do the aggressors spend a lot of effort gaining and retaining support, one way or another, suppressing dissent, by force and propaganda. If you think about it too much, you can see the formula cooking right here in Trump's US of A. Right now, we all should be thankful for the right to peacefully dissent. Note: I'm not including what happened on 1/6/21 as healthy dissent. Objecting to genocide is something empathetic people with moral distinctions instinctively do. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide Here's something to think about, relating to your POV and mine. It could be true that we don't disagree much: AI Overview Elon Musk has expressed views suggesting that Western civilization's empathy can be a weakness, particularly when it's perceived as being exploited or leading to actions detrimental to the long-term well-being of society. Specifically, in interviews and discussions, Musk has used phrases like: "The fundamental weakness of Western civilization is empathy, the empathy exploit,". "They're exploiting a bug in Western civilization, which is the empathy response". "Empathy is good, but you need to think it through and not just be programmed like a robot". He has also referred to a concept called "suicidal empathy," suggesting that excessive empathy can be detrimental and could lead to societal collapse. It's important to note the context of these statements: Musk has expressed concern that empathy can be "weaponized" and exploited to push agendas that may not be beneficial for society as a whole. These comments have been linked to discussions around topics like immigration and social spending, where he suggests that an overreliance on empathy without critical thinking can lead to poor decision-making. In essence, Musk's view suggests that while empathy is a positive trait, it needs to be tempered with reasoned consideration for the overall health and stability of civilization to avoid being used against itself. ************* “Those who control the present, control the past and those who control the past control the future.” George Orwell, 1984 https://www.google.com/search?...sclient=gws-wiz-serp Degenerate 1:1 1 Then Trump said, "Let Us re-make a Nation in MY Image, after My likeness, to rule over everything in the Nation, and over all the earth itself and every creature that crawls upon it". Degenerate 1:2 2 Then Trump said, "Vengeance is mine, I will repay on your behalf." Degenerate 1:3 3 "My Kingdom come, My will be done." "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis O.J. Trump aka Trumpism's Founding Farter, aka Farter Martyr. "Be careful. When a democracy is sick, fascism comes to its bedside, but it is not to inquire about its health." - Albert Camus | |||
|
| One of Us |
I went back and read the OP to try and understand the "conundrum". I like to drill down to the base question or problem. In order to do that re the Hamas/Israeli conflict it seems to me there is one question: What was Hamas' reason for attacking Israel and taking hostages? https://www.google.com/search?...sclient=gws-wiz-serp Closing summary: However, it is important to note that Hamas's broader goals and ideology include the destruction of Israel and the establishment of a Palestinian state in its place, encompassing the occupied West Bank, East Jerusalem, and Gaza. While Hamas has at times signaled a willingness to accept a temporary Palestinian state in the West Bank and Gaza as part of a national consensus, it has consistently rejected recognition of Israel. ======================================================= Also the question of why Putin invaded Ukraine needs a refresher answer: https://bbc.com/news/articles/cj0q964851po Why did Putin's Russia invade Ukraine? 5 days ago Paul Kirby Europe digital editor ************* “Those who control the present, control the past and those who control the past control the future.” George Orwell, 1984 https://www.google.com/search?...sclient=gws-wiz-serp Degenerate 1:1 1 Then Trump said, "Let Us re-make a Nation in MY Image, after My likeness, to rule over everything in the Nation, and over all the earth itself and every creature that crawls upon it". Degenerate 1:2 2 Then Trump said, "Vengeance is mine, I will repay on your behalf." Degenerate 1:3 3 "My Kingdom come, My will be done." "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis O.J. Trump aka Trumpism's Founding Farter, aka Farter Martyr. "Be careful. When a democracy is sick, fascism comes to its bedside, but it is not to inquire about its health." - Albert Camus | |||
|
One of Us |
Good heavens!!! Who the hell cares!!! Once they burned babies alive…no reason even matters and eradication is not only justified but mandated. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
|
| One of Us |
Well, extremists have their reasons. At some point the question might arise as to what their reasons are. It's a similar situation with the reasons Trump has supporters. The funny or ironic thing is that "reason" has nuanced definitions. Another funny or ironic thing is some of the same people who's reason or have reasons to justify -- whatever, are the same people who think it's okay when their leader, Trump, calls democrats vermin. Note the word moral is not mentioned. rea·son /ˈrēz(ə)n/ noun 1. a cause, explanation, or justification for an action or event. "the minister resigned for personal reasons" Similar: cause grounds ground basis rationale motive motivation purpose point aim intention objective goal occasion impetus inducement incentive explanation justification case argument defense apology vindication excuse pretext rationalization warrant the whys and wherefores apologia 2. the power of the mind to think, understand, and form judgments by a process of logic. "there is a close connection between reason and emotion" Similar: rationality logic logical thought scientific thinking reasoning thought cognition the mind intellect intelligence intellectuality nous ratiocination Opposite: emotion feeling verb think, understand, and form judgments by a process of logic. "humans do not reason entirely from facts" ************* “Those who control the present, control the past and those who control the past control the future.” George Orwell, 1984 https://www.google.com/search?...sclient=gws-wiz-serp Degenerate 1:1 1 Then Trump said, "Let Us re-make a Nation in MY Image, after My likeness, to rule over everything in the Nation, and over all the earth itself and every creature that crawls upon it". Degenerate 1:2 2 Then Trump said, "Vengeance is mine, I will repay on your behalf." Degenerate 1:3 3 "My Kingdom come, My will be done." "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis O.J. Trump aka Trumpism's Founding Farter, aka Farter Martyr. "Be careful. When a democracy is sick, fascism comes to its bedside, but it is not to inquire about its health." - Albert Camus | |||
|
| One of Us |
The conundrum is Two or multiple Wrongs don't make a right, unless of course we were talking about the GOP.  ************* “Those who control the present, control the past and those who control the past control the future.” George Orwell, 1984 https://www.google.com/search?...sclient=gws-wiz-serp Degenerate 1:1 1 Then Trump said, "Let Us re-make a Nation in MY Image, after My likeness, to rule over everything in the Nation, and over all the earth itself and every creature that crawls upon it". Degenerate 1:2 2 Then Trump said, "Vengeance is mine, I will repay on your behalf." Degenerate 1:3 3 "My Kingdom come, My will be done." "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis O.J. Trump aka Trumpism's Founding Farter, aka Farter Martyr. "Be careful. When a democracy is sick, fascism comes to its bedside, but it is not to inquire about its health." - Albert Camus | |||
|
| One of Us |
Lord have mercy upon your soul. Wow!!! Trump has supporters because they like his policies. I support Trump because his policies make sense for the country. The majority of voters across the whole nation supported Trump. Rurally it is ~70-80%. You are in the minority. I cannot believe you made the comparison. More evidence you are a nut. Hamas burned babies alive while regular Palestinian populace watched and cheered!  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
|
| One of Us |
The conundrum to or for me is the vagaries of The Wests affection. The West says Vlad/ Russia bad, all bad. 1 million Russians are sacrificed in the Ukraine war and The West says, " good, they had it coming!". Russia and its "rulers" are seen as one in the same. On the other hand despite tons of detailed evidence to the contrary, Hamas and the Palestinians are considered separately. Not only are they considered separately, but the suffering of the Palestinians is entirely blamed on Israel. All the detailed evidence I'm sure I don't need to repeat. And what compounds the conundrum to me is the fact that the Islamic radicals chant the, "Death to America!" stuff. The Islamic radicals chant the, "River to the sea!" stuff and today nobody in The West blinks and of course some Westerners cheer them on! Not to mention ISIS ruling in Syria, Taliban ruling in Afghanistan, 9/11, Iraq, Iran,...... The enemy is obvious and yet The West is hell bent on sending aid. That's the conundrum | |||
|
| One of Us |
We do blink. I have said many times that there can be no River to the Sea. That goes for Israel also. Those Russians are soldiers. Those civilians in Palestine that are being starved to death are not. Those Russians are in Ukraine. Those Palestinians in Gaza are not the killers from Hamas. This war is being extended for Netanyahu’s political power. | |||
|
| One of Us |
to sum up islam is bad and all palestinians are hamas supporters from the supporters of the supreme leader that is an interesting concept as while christians the vlad empire is mostly orthodox and not very catholic on his actions against ukraine and it is interesting to read some here really supporting vlad while he is the enemy for the rest of the west ... | |||
|
| One of Us |
I appreciate that you believe that, but I don't think you can substantiate your claim. Those Russians are sons and nephews just like the rest of us. Some volunteer, some conscripted, some had no choice for other reasons. I doubt they are all little Vlad wannabees. Hamas is fully immersed with the Palestinians. When you open a bedroom closet door you find Hamas taking a nap or reloading a bazooka. I wouldn't know, but I'm guessing those Russians think they're fighting for their sovereignty. I'm more than inclined think the Palestinians are fighting for their sovereignty. I also suspect Netanyahu is extending the war for personal gain. I feel no particular pity or mercy for the million Russians killed. They could do some else like depose Vlad. They went along with the "ruler" and died for it. Likewise I feel no particular mercy or pity for the Palestinians for the same reasons I mentioned above in addition to my personal experiences or observations over the last 50 years or so. | |||
|
| One of Us |
OK, so I got supporters ..supporters, Christians, Vlad, Catholic Orthodox and Ukraine. My de coder ring is in my other suit pocket at the dry cleaners, can you savy any of the above for me? Sorry for my ignorance. | |||
|
| Powered by Social Strata |
 | Please Wait. Your request is being processed... |
|
Visit our on-line store for AR Memorabilia