A Coccidostat is an antibiotic. Antifungals and antihelminthics are just as much antibiotics as antibacterial drugs.

mRNA is mRNA biologically. Like everything, I suppose there might be a dose effect (which coincidentally would mean if you look hard enough you will find that eating in itself causes mRNA spread of disease in someone somewhere and your other option would be to eat only highly processed simple building blocks devoid of any biologic activity) but while it’s reasonable to study it, and I have no real qualms about you electing to not use mRNA vaccines, it still is not a scientifically supported conclusion that it does harm. It’s an unknown that seems unlikely given our collective knowledge at this time. Your source’s attempt to ban it is every bit as problematic as the folks who want to mandate it.

I looked for information regarding Marek’s and all I found was what it was and in reputable sources (Merk manual is heavily used in both vet and human practice). If it is “well known” to cause mutations, it certainly wasn’t in mainstream sources.

That Marek’s disease is ubiquitous and a problem is noted. I’m not a vet, and I don’t know about Marek’s vaccine causing mutations in the virus. also suspect that it would be mentioned more frequently in medical journals if it did. Now viruses can cause genetic damage (especially retroviruses) in their host, but usually a virus is selected for by a vaccine rather than the vaccine causing the mutation.

I don’t buy antibiotics at a farm store, so I don’t know if they would ask me for some sort of script if I had picked it up.

I do know the worst case of penicillin allergy I ever saw (the kid was in the ICU for a week) was farmer dad deciding to give his known penicillin allergic son some of the antibiotics he had for the cattle because he knew the kid had strep. How did he get it? Brought it OTC at fleet farm. It was an unholy mess because child protection was involved.

But yes, that was before 2023. Talking to farmers I know, the difference seems to be the rationale for the antibiotic use. It’s OK to use antibiotics to prophylacticly prevent disease, and to improve chick survival. It’s not OK to use it to gain weight. While they are supposed to have veterinary approval, apparently it’s not as enforced as it could be.

The FDA is doing it as a voluntary action by the manufacturers- they put voluntary restrictions on sales… it’s not US or State law across the country. Note that they are trying to make off label use illegal… where did people get their ivermectin during the big Covid crisis? Horse wormer. So at least some folks have been able to get these things without scripts- maybe they just forge them or shoplift them, I don’t know.

quote:

Originally posted by Aspen Hill Adventures:
Doc, chick feed has a coccidiostat in it. Usually Corid (Amprolium). It's not an antibiotic.

If you are seeing antibiotics on a farm store shelf now they are violating Federal Law. It was all pulled in June '23 or supposed to have been.

You need to look further as to the problems Marek's vaccine has caused. I state the truth.

Also, nowadays, mRNA, at least for me, is referring to MAN MADE genetic manipulation. RNA is NOT the same.

"Last time I looked" is a very poor statement. I don't think you are current on some things and certainly nothing farm related. Maybe you just feel the need to look 'right' or prove me wrong? I'm not sure why we are arguing about these things but here we are. You will have mangine and the other crazies here believing your comments.

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:

quote:

Originally posted by Aspen Hill Adventures:

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:
His conclusions are every bit as problematic as the practices he is attacking.

The mandatory duck vaccination campaign in France is problematic in that it has not been tested yet- it may well be a forerunner of a worldwide standard... if it works out.

I don't know that viral mutation is driven by vaccine use- rather a successful mutation will be selected for a bit more quickly- its not causative of mutation. The mutations will happen regardless, and be found in the wild.

Human health risks from mRNA are a canard. We eat mRNA all the time. His comment that the lipid nanoparticle encapsulation protects from gastric (acid) degradation is true. That eating this meat that is cooked and then digested is likely to allow the vaccine to enter your bloodstream and be "immunizing" people to avian flu seems a bit off- or else we would be giving mRNA vaccines orally. Has it been extensively studied? No. Should it be? Sure.

Breakthrough infections proving limitations? Yes. But in a similar vein should we pull all antibiotics off the market because they have a defined rate of failure, and are known to cause some biological "downstream" effects? Has this selfsame arbiter of what is appropriate said as much about the wholesale use of antibiotics in feed or veterinary use?

Legal ambiguities? Come on.

His paper did not indicate that mass avian influenza vaccination campaigns should never be pursued. It at best indicated that there are some areas that should be looked at a bit more closely before something becomes a official policy course of action.

He in his conclusion shows that he is not a very competent scientist- he's every bit as much of an overstater as the folks that pushed mandatory vaccination for covid were. His bread is buttered by making hyperbolic antivaccine claims.

quote:

We eat mRNA all the time.

mRNA is how your cells get the information from the nucleus to produce proteins. Any cell pretty much has some mRNA in it. Therefore, you eat meat or eggs, you are eating mRNA. You eat living plants, you eat mRNA.

Okay, like what?

I can tell you I have no access to any antibiotics OTC in any farm store. Have to get such medication from a veterinarian. In fact, I have to run birds in next week just to get a supply of Baytril which I will inject into sick birds. I'd certainly prefer OTC since I have to medicate them myself anyway.

Saw some for cattle at the local fleet-farm store last time I was there. Huge bottle of penicillin.

Look at chick feed. It has antibiotics in it, or at least it did the last time I looked.

So is it your conclusion is that viral mutations via vaccinations have never happened?
I suppose it is possible, but I doubt it. Vaccines can conceivably cause selection for an already mutated virus, but vaccines would be carcinogenic if they caused mutations by themselves.

I don't understand your opinion here. It did happen with Marek's Disease which is why I mentioned it.
Here's what the Merk manual says about Marek's disease. I don't see anything about it being from vaccination.
https://www.merckvetmanual.com...s-disease-in-poultry

It says that Marek's disease vaccination doesn't work once a outbreak occurrs. It also said that the Marek's disease vaccine (a live attenuated virus) is used with genome splicing to create vaccines for other diseases, and works for that.

Well you learn something every day. We on farm tend to call anti biotic any thing that deals with bacterial infection, and stipulate between those, anti fungal treatments and coccidiostat's.

Because coccidiosis is so hard to deal with and is endemic too nearly every environment, Its used for sure in feed and if necessary, in water.

But I don't know of any Anti bacterial treatment that's allowed in feed as a prophylactic.

Over here the last 10 years at least, you have to get a vet to proscribe to use an anti bacterial antibiotic on an individual animal case by case. Except for mastitis where we get a prescription for the season based on history of use. Any treated cow is withheld from the herd milk supply for a proscribed period post treatment, and barred from slaughter for up to 60 days post treatment.

The antibiotics that can be used are all old generation ones no longer in general use for humans, and there is a real move towards letting animal recover itself, or putting it down, rather than medicinal use.

Our antibiotic use has halved in the last few years as a result.

Responsible use is the key.

I don’t have a position on using anti fungal agents with feed, and note that it would cause increasing resistance, but a stable food supply is of value as well.

You are in NZ, which is different than the US as far as rules.

At medical conferences regarding antibiotic stewardship and resistance they still continue to state that part of our problem with resistance is related to widespread anti microbial use in agriculture.

More in point to Ann, my reason for bringing it up is that disinformation is disinformation, and the McCullough institute is not well thought of in the scientific community. That they were outspoken against the COVID vaccine served a political agenda, even if I agreed with that the mandates were a severe overstep and not well documented, their scholarship is not that great at least in my opinion.

Yeah I agree with you. Was more just a side bar to say the issue is not limited too the US and things in agriculture are changing. I suspect in 10 years we will have reduced use too 10% of historic use.

We still vaccinate our stock against every relevant virus we can. Just makes sense.

Do your cattle get pink-eye there Shanks?
Cattle that go out to pasture for long stretches ( young stock mostly) in the summer are all vaxed for it.

It can be bad in sheep, and cattle especially calves can get it, but it's not a huge problem in most areas. We get enough rain mostly too keep dust from initially transmitting it. At least there seems to be a link between pink eye and very dry weather.

Flies spread it here.

quote:

Originally posted by shankspony:
Well you learn something every day. We on farm tend to call anti biotic any thing that deals with bacterial infection, and stipulate between those, anti fungal treatments and coccidiostat's.

Because coccidiosis is so hard to deal with and is endemic too nearly every environment, Its used for sure in feed and if necessary, in water.

But I don't know of any Anti bacterial treatment that's allowed in feed as a prophylactic.

Over here the last 10 years at least, you have to get a vet to proscribe to use an anti bacterial antibiotic on an individual animal case by case. Except for mastitis where we get a prescription for the season based on history of use. Any treated cow is withheld from the herd milk supply for a proscribed period post treatment, and barred from slaughter for up to 60 days post treatment.

The antibiotics that can be used are all old generation ones no longer in general use for humans, and there is a real move towards letting animal recover itself, or putting it down, rather than medicinal use.

Our antibiotic use has halved in the last few years as a result.

It's been illegal here for industrial poultry farms to feed or inject antibiotics, steroids for as long as I can remember. I do not raise anything on this level nor sell meat/eggs anymore but I do treat my birds, dogs, sheep when they are sick.

Bovines get antibiotics so they can be fed grain to fatten them. Not sure if it's totally illegal here in dairy's as that is not my area but shooting up dairy cows with steroids (?) to increase milk production still may happen as well. Best to read labels, as here, it seems like anything can happen. One of the reasons I raise my own stuff.

Are you sure it's not a hormone growth promotant for fattening?

No HGP, antibiotic, or almost any other chemical allowed to be found in our meat or dairy at time of processing. Only a couple of members of the Ivomectin/abamectan family are allowed to be used without a milk withhold period to deal with parasites.
You have to be reasonably switched on to get things correct re timing and use these days.

quote:

Originally posted by shankspony:
Are you sure it's not a hormone growth promotant for fattening?

No HGP, antibiotic, or almost any other chemical allowed to be found in our meat or dairy at time of processing. Only a couple of members of the Ivomectin/abamectan family are allowed to be used without a milk withhold period to deal with parasites.
You have to be reasonably switched on to get things correct re timing and use these days.

I am unsure, as mentioned, cattle are not my area but BGH might be what is used in some industrial dairy cattle here. I believe that is considered a steroid?

Speaking of dairy, have you seen those milking robots? Way cool.

yep steroids.

Kind of cool, and yet they are another death for rural communities. each farm in our area would loose jobs for two people if they became common.
I make enough money, Id rather employ people.

Just sold 12 herd sire bulls, got 34,000 nz dollars for them 19,500 USd. Most likely they will end their journey in a Mc Donalds in the US somewhere. As for some weird reason, NZ produces a grinding beef from our bulls, with just the right fat/protein levels perfect for burgers.
Most of the regulations we face re medicines and chemicals come from the USFDA so that we can sell into your market.

Was that price for beef bulls or ... ?


I see good bulls go for a bit more around here. They can be mixed breed too. Unsure on dairy bull prices but I do know the A2A2 dairy cattle go for more around here that the standard holstein. Raw milk is legal and A2 cattle are considered choice for that.

I sent you a PM.

quote:

Originally posted by shankspony:
yep steroids.

Kind of cool, and yet they are another death for rural communities. each farm in our area would loose jobs for two people if they became common.
I make enough money, Id rather employ people.

Just sold 12 herd sire bulls, got 34,000 nz dollars for them 19,500 USd. Most likely they will end their journey in a Mc Donalds in the US somewhere. As for some weird reason, NZ produces a grinding beef from our bulls, with just the right fat/protein levels perfect for burgers.
Most of the regulations we face re medicines and chemicals come from the USFDA so that we can sell into your market.

Thanks Anne, yep those prices you sent me were very high!

The bulls I sold were just for ensuring that any cow that missed Artificial insemination, gets in calf. As such they are not chosen for breed genetics, but price and then their short happy life is over and its off too the works. It's good if we make some money from them but that's not their purpose, and we will sell them for a loss if it means getting them off the farm after mating. This lot I made about 7000 on, which is a bonus but I could have just as easily lost a similar amount if the price per KG was down.