How some groups can continue to support Trump can only be explained in terms of either mental illness or stupidity (or both). One example. Folks in coal mining communities. "You watch what happens — if I win, we're going to bring those miners back," Trump said at a 2016 rally. By 2020, coal miner employment was down more than 20%. Yet folks in coal mining communities are lapping up Trump’s lies this round too. And of course the same lies he told the coal miners, he is telling the automotive workers. Maybe we are just not smart enough for self government.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
Maybe we are just not smart enough for self government.

On the whole the masses on both sides are not particularly bright.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
How some groups can continue to support Trump can only be explained in terms of either mental illness or stupidity (or both). One example. Folks in coal mining communities. "You watch what happens — if I win, we're going to bring those miners back," Trump said at a 2016 rally. By 2020, coal miner employment was down more than 20%. Yet folks in coal mining communities are lapping up Trump’s lies this round too. And of course the same lies he told the coal miners, he is telling the automotive workers. Maybe we are just not smart enough for self government.

What did these auto workers think will happen to their jobs if President Trump gets a 100 percent tariff on all GMs finished in Mexico?

quote:

How some groups can continue to support Trump can only be explained in terms of either mental illness or stupidity (or both).

You forgot one other explanation: greed.

Greed is what leads people to support an evil man because they like his policies. They are willing to overlook all else because those policies are aimed at putting more money in their pockets.

I really do not see greed being a factor. Look at the demographics of the Trumplicans. If I had to name a third factor in addition to mental illness and stupidity it would be hate. They hate folks that are different from them. They hate those they perceive as threats. They hate those that have been more successful than them. Bottom line, they hate the draw they got in life so someone has to be responsible and whoever they perceive that to be they hate.

Neither, they see “ America” in their own image. Anything outside of that is evil and not true “American.”

President Trump is just the tool. The real problem is them.

In a word, hate as you identified.

The sad part is they scream being patriotic and American while supporting the destruction of the Constitution because it does not permit their nationalist views.

The Constitution and the restrictions upon will found in our Democracy only apply when they win.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
How some groups can continue to support Trump can only be explained in terms of either mental illness or stupidity (or both). One example. Folks in coal mining communities. "You watch what happens — if I win, we're going to bring those miners back," Trump said at a 2016 rally. By 2020, coal miner employment was down more than 20%. Yet folks in coal mining communities are lapping up Trump’s lies this round too. And of course the same lies he told the coal miners, he is telling the automotive workers. Maybe we are just not smart enough for self government.

Did he ever utter "we're gonna blast baby, blast?"

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
I really do not see greed being a factor. Look at the demographics of the Trumplicans. If I had to name a third factor in addition to mental illness and stupidity it would be hate. They hate folks that are different from them. They hate those they perceive as threats. They hate those that have been more successful than them. Bottom line, they hate the draw they got in life so someone has to be responsible and whoever they perceive that to be they hate.

For years they've had to keep their hate bottled up, Trump gave them permission to bring it out into the daylight.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
How some groups can continue to support Trump can only be explained in terms of either mental illness or stupidity (or both). One example. Folks in coal mining communities. "You watch what happens — if I win, we're going to bring those miners back," Trump said at a 2016 rally. By 2020, coal miner employment was down more than 20%. Yet folks in coal mining communities are lapping up Trump’s lies this round too. And of course the same lies he told the coal miners, he is telling the automotive workers. Maybe we are just not smart enough for self government.

https://www.churchofjesuschris...-for-israel?lang=eng

Might be time again.

Id propose a Jew.
I'm not Jewish myself, but they have a habit of accepting other religions unlike the Baptists or Muslims. I like the Jews fighting spirit, their kind of mean when backed against a wall. Jews are industrious, commonly bilingual and I don't think are very prone to substance abuse, adultery or pompousness.

'Sides, choosing one of "Gods Chosen People" as Ruler can't have a downside within The Pearly Gates. Sort of like hedging your bet.

quote:

They hate folks that are different from them. They hate those they perceive as threats. They hate those that have been more successful than them. Bottom line, they hate the draw they got in life so someone has to be responsible and whoever they perceive that to be they hate.

This describes the root motivations of what I would bet is the vast majority of the far right. These are the angry, grumbling morons who talk darkly among themselves of "amputating the left arm."
They are the laziest, poorest sports in human history, unable to grasp that if you are out of snych with the majority, you have to WORK to convince them of the truth of your position. Ever see one of these scum knock on doors during the political season or otherwise attempt to reasonably engage those they disagree with? No. That would take time, effort and THOUGHT. Easier to share conspiracies on the Internet, and maybe show up at a hate march if there are enough of them not to be scared. It is too bad they are allowed access to firearms, knives, matches, large sticks, etc., as they dream twisted dreams of pursuing violent glory to get their way. Trump knows all this and uses it brilliantly. He is probably the most cynical politician America has ever produced.

i propose a lottery based off names in the last census - literally pull random names for potus, veep, all members of congress (keeping it clear that the members of congress come from their districts) - i doubt it could be worse

Pretty much the same rationale of the far left… just different bugbears.

The country has always had differences of opinion, and this is no different.

The civil war was a big damper on how far we would go… yet now we refuse to teach history in school reliably.

Too much added stuff to the curriculum to treat much of any subject in proper depth.

Add in social promotion and it’s a wonder that a diploma means anything anymore.

I do not see those Left of me calling all Republicans evil.

I do see that from those Right of me.

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:
I do not see those Left of me calling all Republicans evil.

I do see that from those Right of me.

You have to be kidding. Both side act like middle school girls. Funny part is both are stupid. One props up a wanna be dictator and the other trots outs a confused old man. The system on the whole is a joke.

quote:

Originally posted by zebrazapper:

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:
I do not see those Left of me calling all Republicans evil.

I do see that from those Right of me.

You have to be kidding. Both side act like middle school girls. Funny part is both are stupid. One props up a wanna be dictator and the other trots outs a confused old man. The system on the whole is a joke.

. . . and the congregation all said . . . AMEN.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by zebrazapper:

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:
I do not see those Left of me calling all Republicans evil.

I do see that from those Right of me.

You have to be kidding. Both side act like middle school girls. Funny part is both are stupid. One props up a wanna be dictator and the other trots outs a confused old man. The system on the whole is a joke.

. . . and the congregation all said . . . AMEN.

A different conversation.

President Johnson and Polk before him are the only setting presidents not to have sought re-election. The Republican Party with its viewpoint of the above has created the environment for President Biden and Dems to win elections.

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by zebrazapper:

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:
I do not see those Left of me calling all Republicans evil.

I do see that from those Right of me.

You have to be kidding. Both side act like middle school girls. Funny part is both are stupid. One props up a wanna be dictator and the other trots outs a confused old man. The system on the whole is a joke.

. . . and the congregation all said . . . AMEN.

A different conversation.

President Johnson and Polk before him are the only setting presidents not to have sought re-election. The Republican Party with its viewpoint of the above has created the environment for President Biden and Dems to win elections.

So if Trump wins, is it the fault of the democrats for not replacing their flawed candidate?

I certainly agree that the GOP as directed by its primary voters and the process is putting up a horribly flawed candidate… but isn’t that part of the process? I tried to fight it, and lost. You flat out said you were now a democrat over Trump. That makes you the problem, doesn’t it?

Probably.

We know that Christian Nationalists policies and President Trump type politics has cost GOP elections from 2018 on up.

They are going to cost the House which is down to a majority of 1 with all the non-Trumpy retirements.

A reject the narrative that President Biden is under incapacity. He put that narrative at test for my money during the State of the Union. Where he will be in 4 years from now is anyone’s guess. Folks knew President Biden’s age when they voted for him last time. I blame the Christian Nationalists in the GOP for the border crisis given President Biden’s administration negotiated w conservatives and a bill passed w no-partisan support out of the Senate. The Christian Nationalist did not even allow a vote in the House.

An unresolved issue is the horrible implementation of the withdrawal from Afghanistan. I am even willing to assume withdrawal has to happen for this debate.

You are correct, when the Party wants to be lead by Christian Nationalist, MAGA They can accept that they have pushed out traditional GOP voters to fight a culture war they started losing in 1937, do be it. In addition, they do not want the “rules” they are trying to have applied to everyone else applied to the rights they like.

If one wants a return to original intent, then send the 2nd Amendment back to the states as controlling precedent demanded until the Incorporation Doctrine was applied to the
Fundamental Right of Self-Protection which Justice Scilla held required incoming the 2nd.

Assuming, President Biden wins, he was not so flawed was he when matched against President Trump.

I believe you have advanced a theory that Saunders was denied the nomination at the convention.

However, this is false. Clinton obtained a sufficient number of delegates prior to the convention to claim the nomination.

In the primary elections and caucuses, Clinton has won 1,812 pledged delegates. Sanders has won 1,521. That gave her a lead of 291.

That is far more than the 131-delegate lead that then-Sen. Barack Obama held over Clinton when he clinched the Democratic nomination on June 4, 2008.

Among superdelegates, Clinton has the support of 571. Sanders has the backing of 48. That gives Clinton a lead of 523 superdelegates.

Overall, Clinton has 2,383 delegates, Sanders 1,569.
Clinton could not be caught by Saunders.

https://www.ap.org/media-cente...ap-counts-delegates/

Yet, one could argues that without the late breaking support of Superdelegates Saunders could have gotten to the number to relieve nomination. That has to assume that Saunders had won those state delegates. It appears he did not as Clinton went into the Convention w sufficient delegates. One would have to show the Saunders had won the requisite total of the states delegates prior to the convention, and at the convention the Superdelegates abandoned him. Or, that Saunders had more delegates going into the convention only for the Superdelegates to deny him. That is not true. He went to the convention w less delegates then Clinton. This. Saunders was not denied the nomination by party control m. He simply did not win enough. Therefore, the only Dem President Trump could beat was selected by the party above broad.

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by zebrazapper:

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:
I do not see those Left of me calling all Republicans evil.

I do see that from those Right of me.

You have to be kidding. Both side act like middle school girls. Funny part is both are stupid. One props up a wanna be dictator and the other trots outs a confused old man. The system on the whole is a joke.

. . . and the congregation all said . . . AMEN.

A different conversation.

President Johnson and Polk before him are the only setting presidents not to have sought re-election. The Republican Party with its viewpoint of the above has created the environment for President Biden and Dems to win elections.

So if Trump wins, is it the fault of the democrats for not replacing their flawed candidate?

I certainly agree that the GOP as directed by its primary voters and the process is putting up a horribly flawed candidate… but isn’t that part of the process? I tried to fight it, and lost. You flat out said you were now a democrat over Trump. That makes you the problem, doesn’t it?

The flaw in your reasoning, as usual, is believing trump and Biden are equally bad for the country. I'm not going to try to explain it to you again, but that is not correct.

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:
I do not see those Left of me calling all Republicans evil.

I do see that from those Right of me.

apparently you don't don't watch the news, social media, even youtube, or RIGHT HERE... Ask a "blue hair" what they think of republicans -- not trump, not the turtle, but of republicans -

even worse, when you agree with a large percentage of the left, but not 100% you get called a fascist -- I have, right here on AR, even though I am staunchly behind equal rights for everyone, gay marriage (though i also believe that the government should have no role in marriage), trans rights, protection of women, pro-choice, legalizing pot, getting help for "kids" with gender dysphoria, protecting the venerable and venerable, legalization of pot, more oversight into police activities, and strongly pro-immigration -- but I back Israel, believe in the rule of law, i am strongly anti-segregationist, and I believe in America FIRST, not only, but first. I want our vets to get all the help they need as the priority, I want the borders controlled while having an easy to earn work visa program, and everyone to be measured by the same yardstick. Let's help the homeless and those with mental diseases, let's make healthcare affordable, not providing some insurance scams.

The left frequently vilifies me for not agreeing with their thought police requirements. The 1st amendment is actually DOES support and protect "lies"-- how many fiction works (of whatever type) are published in this country every year; though the truth is that they are all lies, and usually have a disclaimer marking that out. It does protect "unpleasant" speech, though the comstock act (which I think is unconstitutional) defines some limits. I support federal authority in their place, and state sovereignty and the ability to "extend" federal laws. Heck, I working in the finance industry, 48 states of individual that are federal regs plus some more.

Now, the day I was called a soyboi liberal, i had a good chuckle, because i do believe in liberty and justice, with equal application of the law.


But to say that either of the 2024 major candidates is "better" than the other is a matter of emotion, not reason. I do firmly believe that 2 random people, pulled off the street, wouldn't be any worse, and could be better

quote:

Originally posted by Mike Mitchell:

The flaw in your reasoning, as usual, is believing trump and Biden are equally bad for the country. I'm not going to try to explain it to you again, but that is not correct.

No Mike, it's because you CAN'T line them up on a spreadsheet and total the sums and find any meaningful difference between them. It's your OPINION that it's not correct, regardless of how often you state it. I think both are TERRIBLE choices - and i firmly believe is a false "forced choice" to make it so.. I am grossly disappointed with both parties for making this the choice - 350M people in this country, and we have biden and trump as "choices" - the only good thing i can say is hillary isn't on the ballot

quote:

No Mike, it's because you CAN'T line them up on a spreadsheet and total the sums and find any meaningful difference between them. It's your OPINION that it's not correct, regardless of how often you state it.

Have you lined them up on a spreadsheet to find a meaningful difference?

IOW, you too are just expressing your opinion.

Here's some facts: Trump is the most divisive person for the country EVER. He's the only x-POTUS to ever be indicted. There has been no comparable person successful at undermining the public confidence in the "system" and rule of law as Trump has been.

If you believe there is no meaningful difference Trump vs Biden, then you have effectively bought into Trumpism.

what is that juvenile thing you like to do, ME?
oh, wait for it

quote:

Ignored post by Magine Enigam posted 01.April.2024 20:38

BS

I didn't attack you personally, just your opinion.

Deal with the supposed facts I presented.

you posted your opinions - and, based on our conversational history, you aren't open to anything to change your mind - but i did use your EXACT tactic, which you are inferring is a personal attack -- hmm, weird

Biden's approval rating, year 3 - 39.1%
https://projects.fivethirtyeig...den-approval-rating/

trump was just about exactly the same, at the same point in his presidency -- then covid happened, which is a disaster to the world

no meaningful difference ..

I attempted to post some facts, although arguable such arguments are not as well supported by evidence as my conclusions.

I can support my opinions founded in evidence. Can you? If so, do so.

quote:

Here's some facts: Trump is the most divisive person for the country EVER. He's the only x-POTUS to ever be indicted. There has been no comparable person successful at undermining the public confidence in the "system" and rule of law as Trump has been.

If you believe there is no meaningful difference Trump vs Biden, then you have effectively bought into Trumpism.

quote:

but i did use your EXACT tactic, which you are inferring is a personal attack -- hmm, weird

It's weird because it's not true.

I only ignore when it gets personal, and it's not a tactic within legit debate. It's just practical to avoid the obvious deflection from the topic and avoid being sucked in by a troll.

quote:

Originally posted by Magine Enigam:

quote:

No Mike, it's because you CAN'T line them up on a spreadsheet and total the sums and find any meaningful difference between them. It's your OPINION that it's not correct, regardless of how often you state it.

Have you lined them up on a spreadsheet to find a meaningful difference?

IOW, you too are just expressing your opinion.

Here's some facts: Trump is the most divisive person for the country EVER. He's the only x-POTUS to ever be indicted. There has been no comparable person successful at undermining the public confidence in the "system" and rule of law as Trump has been.

If you believe there is no meaningful difference Trump vs Biden, then you have effectively bought into Trumpism.

Devisive I agree with. he has been a polarizing figure. has drove republicans like me away. In terms of corrupt, Warren Harding comes to mind.

quote:

In terms of corrupt, Warren Harding comes to mind.

Yes. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/..._G._Harding#Scandals

But I can see many differences comparing Trump to Harding.

We are not talking about mere incompetence, but intent.

It's late and I don't want to continue now, but that doesn't mean I'm not interested in continuing the debate later.

quote:

Originally posted by Mike Mitchell:

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by zebrazapper:

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:
I do not see those Left of me calling all Republicans evil.

I do see that from those Right of me.

You have to be kidding. Both side act like middle school girls. Funny part is both are stupid. One props up a wanna be dictator and the other trots outs a confused old man. The system on the whole is a joke.

. . . and the congregation all said . . . AMEN.

A different conversation.

President Johnson and Polk before him are the only setting presidents not to have sought re-election. The Republican Party with its viewpoint of the above has created the environment for President Biden and Dems to win elections.

So if Trump wins, is it the fault of the democrats for not replacing their flawed candidate?

I certainly agree that the GOP as directed by its primary voters and the process is putting up a horribly flawed candidate… but isn’t that part of the process? I tried to fight it, and lost. You flat out said you were now a democrat over Trump. That makes you the problem, doesn’t it?

The flaw in your reasoning, as usual, is believing trump and Biden are equally bad for the country. I'm not going to try to explain it to you again, but that is not correct.

A point we can agree on.

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:

quote:

Originally posted by Mike Mitchell:

The flaw in your reasoning, as usual, is believing trump and Biden are equally bad for the country. I'm not going to try to explain it to you again, but that is not correct.

No Mike, it's because you CAN'T line them up on a spreadsheet and total the sums and find any meaningful difference between them. It's your OPINION that it's not correct, regardless of how often you state it. I think both are TERRIBLE choices - and i firmly believe is a false "forced choice" to make it so.. I am grossly disappointed with both parties for making this the choice - 350M people in this country, and we have biden and trump as "choices" - the only good thing i can say is hillary isn't on the ballot

I don't see anything with which I can disagree here. Regards, Bill.

quote:

. . . and the congregation all said . . . AMEN.

A spreadsheet idea just serves to distract. There are many factors that may be included, mostly subjective. But the list after number one diminishes as existential rapidly, so much that #1 on the spreadsheet can be and should be IMO deemed the utmost deciding factor, stand alone.

Binary choice, like the lesser of two evils (a flawed concept) IMO forces the deciding factor into binary as well.

Trumpism = American fascism; cult-like religion
Biden represents the antithesis of that.

So, if there is an equivalence comparison, it's not the lesser of evils. Instead, respectively, it's when the choice is pure evil vs flawed good, the choice becomes more obvious, unless you can rationalize pure evil as okay with you and for the country.

Here's an opinion article which explains my POV:

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news...4686ce8ec220a3&ei=69

"Perfectly predictable": Dr. John Gartner on why "a malignant narcissist like Trump" sells Bibles