We would not have the mess we have today had the assault weapons ban not been lifted. It would not bother me in the least if they were to become much more restricted. Move them to class 3 and watch the number of crimes committed with them drop like a rock.

quote:

we have today had the assault weapons ban not been lifted

Wow!

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

we have today had the assault weapons ban not been lifted

Wow!

Surprised to hear the truth? The exponential growth of assault weapons in our communities has not been a positive development over the 20 or so years.

What surprises me is that an intelligent human being can come to that conclusion.

I watched it happen alongside the change in our gun culture. The current tacti-cool, kill 'em all and let God sort them out mentality makes me sick.

This is a rare case of me agreeing with your mindset of yearning for the good old days. I truly wish our gun culture had not turned into what it is today. It is an embarrassment.

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Bertram:
I watched it happen alongside the change in our gun culture. The current tacti-cool, kill 'em all and let God sort them out mentality makes me sick.

This is a rare case of me agreeing with your mindset of yearning for the good old days. I truly wish our gun culture had not turned into what it is today. It is an embarrassment.

Not sure how to even respond to that but to say none of your post above has anything to do with tha cause of gun violence.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Bertram:
I watched it happen alongside the change in our gun culture. The current tacti-cool, kill 'em all and let God sort them out mentality makes me sick.

This is a rare case of me agreeing with your mindset of yearning for the good old days. I truly wish our gun culture had not turned into what it is today. It is an embarrassment.

Not sure how to even respond to that but to say none of your post above has anything to do with tha cause of gun violence.

It most certainly contributes to increased gun violence. The shooters want to be seen as cool and the assault weapons give them the means. The gun industry let this genie out of the bottle, and it was a big, big mistake.

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Bertram:
We would not have the mess we have today had the assault weapons ban not been lifted. It would not bother me in the least if they were to become much more restricted. Move them to class 3 and watch the number of crimes committed with them drop like a rock.

Why?

When will it get into your head that guns NEVER, EVER, kill anyone!

Educate your stupid students.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Bertram:
We would not have the mess we have today had the assault weapons ban not been lifted. It would not bother me in the least if they were to become much more restricted. Move them to class 3 and watch the number of crimes committed with them drop like a rock.

Why?

When will it get into your head that guns NEVER, EVER, kill anyone!

Educate your stupid students.

Guns don't kill people, stupid people with access to guns kill people.

We have very little crime committed with our more controlled firearms, yet the ones that are easily accessible are used regularly in crimes.

Do you allow anyone to be armed in the UAE? Can foreigners just carry a gun anywhere? I will assume the answer is no. If that is the case, then you have gun control in the UAE as well. Why? Because it makes sense.

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Bertram:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

we have today had the assault weapons ban not been lifted

Wow!

Surprised to hear the truth? The exponential growth of assault weapons in our communities has not been a positive development over the 20 or so years.

Not only has it not been a positive, it has been completely unnecessary. I used to enjoy going to gun shows. Not any more. The vast majority of folks I see at gun shows today are not people I would regard as "my fellow gun owners".

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Bertram:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

we have today had the assault weapons ban not been lifted

Wow!

Surprised to hear the truth? The exponential growth of assault weapons in our communities has not been a positive development over the 20 or so years.

Not only has it not been a positive, it has been completely unnecessary. I used to enjoy going to gun shows. Not any more. The vast majority of folks I see at gun shows today are not people I would regard as "my fellow gun owners".

I now and then go to the one in Salt Lake City if I'm already up there, do not bother with it here. I'm told that if it were not for the tactical-t-shirt guys and the tough-guy knives, the gun shows would fold for lack of interest and funding, but it's just not my vibe. In other times, the selection of used firearms was broad and deep. I liked to browse the used rifles and would occasionally find something I didn't know existed, a rare occurrence now. Most of the tables that have firearms are either pistols or AR-15 clones.

I idly wonder what firearms Kamala owns. I am old enough to remember when Handgun Control Inc stated as official policy that they were only trying to ban Saturday Night Specials, and had no interest in long guns. Maybe they were truthful, maybe just boiling the frog slowly, but things changed as their marketing strategy expanded its scope. It's doubtful that the gun control industry will ever disband for lack of purpose.

I’ll take some restrictions on access versus none as the current reading of the Second Amendment as applied to the states and fed government allows.

I support Red Flag laws.

Maybe when we get rid of assault rifles we can work on sniper rifles. Shotguns should be banned as well, given how destructive they are.

quote:

Originally posted by 788:
Maybe when we get rid of assault rifles we can work on sniper rifles. Shotguns should be banned as well, given how destructive they are.

I know your post is in jest, but that is the ultimate goal and for any gun owner to think otherwise is pure stupidity.Someday Steve's nice H&H will be a scary sniper rifle with sights out to 600 yards.

quote:

Originally posted by Gundog 64:

quote:

Originally posted by 788:
Maybe when we get rid of assault rifles we can work on sniper rifles. Shotguns should be banned as well, given how destructive they are.

I know your post is in jest, but that is the ultimate goal and for any gun owner to think otherwise is pure stupidity.Someday Steve's nice H&H will be a scary sniper rifle with sights out to 600 yards.

Someday some of you will grow up and acknowledge that much of the blame for the current mess resides with the gun industry. Tacticool and AR's have been nothing but a mistake. I refused to be associated with that shit.

Jines laid it out well when talking about the state of gunshows today, my fellow gun owners? No, a bunch of far right whack jobs and Rambo wannabe's.

The change in our gun culture the last 20 years has been sad.

The reason we saw this industry push to ARs is because in order not to overrule certain precedents around the NFA and 1985 GCA amendment that Scalia did not want to overturn, or did not have the votes, is his Heller and McDonald opinions stated a legislature could not outright ban weapons in common use.

Thus, the industry set about making ARs in common use.

I have no overall problem w ARs. That does not mean we cannot have some reasonably restrictions on access.

I doubt age restrictions to 21 will survive now that we have the recent NY case. I support Red Flag laws.

quote:

The change in our gun culture the last 20 years has been sad.

That’s what you get when you teach a bunch of 20 somethings that they are your lifeline in war for 20 years.

This entire thread is looking backwards, not forwards.

So, today and planning for tomorrow, what do we do?

I say the NRA in conjunction with public education start gun safety/ gun education. Make sure every public school student nation wide understand guns, what they can do and the ramifications of using this tool accidentally or evilly. Also, both mentioned entities start/ subsidize a gun safe/ lockup program. If we can afford to donate $7 billion in arms to the Taliban and how ever many trillion $'s we have to Ukraine we certainly can afford to buy our fellow Americans some gun lockers and pad locks.

Corrections hasn't worked in The War in Drugs right? The current idea is education is the answer. Corrections hasn't worked in curbing violent crime either. Educate them.

I agree with Steve 100%. The 21st century gun culture is self defeating, embarrassing and promotes violence in our society. I own exactly 1 AR that I spent $ 1600.00 on, + reloading components and a couple aftermarket accessories. It's the 6.8 SPC and now that load development is all done and it groups well, I can honestly say I don't own a more useless firearm. The 6.8 has nothing over the Savage 99 in 250-3000 or the Remington 722 in 257 Roberts it sits along side of in the safe. Why did I bother?

But it's too late, the genie is out of the bottle. The guns have proliferated and in this nation there's no collecting them back.

I don't think the kids that use these guns for evil fully understand the ramifications and charging them as adults after the fact doesn't matter.

These kids need to understand beforehand.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

The change in our gun culture the last 20 years has been sad.

That’s what you get when you teach a bunch of 20 somethings that they are your lifeline in war for 20 years.

Damn us anyway. 20 something's that can't be farmers or doctors or merchants. Can't be a good dad or a skilled tradesman, gotta be deadly and a warrior in order to be a man.
Damn us anyway.

quote:

Originally posted by Scott King:
I own exactly 1 AR that I spent $ 1600.00 on, + reloading components and a couple aftermarket accessories. It's the 6.8 SPC and now that load development is all done and it groups well, I can honestly say I don't own a more useless firearm. The 6.8 has nothing over the Savage 99 in 250-3000 or the Remington 722 in 257 Roberts it sits along side of in the safe. Why did I bother?

You should have gotten a 6.5 Grendel.

Actually, it's not too late. Just sell the upper in 6.8 and get another upper in 6.5 Grendel.

I've never been disappointed with mine, and I don't know anyone who has been. But we don't hunt moose with it or use it for bear protection.

I don't shoot mine much anymore since my right eye is no longer dominant. But if I chose just one caliber/cartridge for a rifle, it would be something in 6.5 mm. Ok - two - 6.5 Grendel and 6.5 x 55.

I think most of these mass killers did not see combat.

I agree with Scott King on a national federally funded and mandated firearms safety course/instruction taught for 2-4 weeks on public schools through health classes. Like Bush did w the national sex abstinence program, but more useful/effective.

I will remember that first squirrel I killed w my pa and cleaning. It made me very strict around firearms. I was getting a sporting clays lesson by a driven game shooter. He said I was very safe. He was also fitting me for my new build. He wanted to look down the barrel after I mounted. I nearly quit it was bothering my mind so.

Every new firearm purchase comes with locks as mandated by Fed law. The locks are already present. People w children just do not secure firearms bc they do not think it will happen to them. Thus, I support a Fed secure law for homes w children.

The new bed stand rapid safes are fool proof and effective.

quote:

I think most of these mass killers did not see combat.

I think that's true. They are not warriors. They couldn't pass the tests required to qualify.

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:
I think most of these mass killers did not see combat.

True…but it is still where the love for tactical gear and AR-15s came from.

Just like the love for the .30-06 came from WWII.

I think it's different things, Lane.

Why didn't the M-14 7.62×51mm or 308 catch on?

Again, I do not have an issue w ARs per se. There is room for folks like me, less AR guy, and AR people.

The industry push was because of Scalia having to uphold certain precedents concerning the NFA and unstated GCA amendments. Hence, he wrote that weapons in common use for legal purposes including his recognition of self protection as a fundamental right were protected (the cases were about handguns).

The industry has lawyers and good ones. That is when we started seeing the NRA and NSSF with the industry set out to make ARs in common use.

I remember the first AR commercial by the NSSF they came post Heller/McDonald, an older gentleman hunting w a cameo Remington AR. The gentleman explained this was a modern sporting rifle. Again, the goal was to bring ARs in common use.

At the time Colt, would not sell through distribution ARs that were legal to own under the NFA or GCA to individual citizens. We see where that brought Colt.

That is my response to ME as well. The M 14 was a failed design. There are semi auto derivatives. I own one. The push was around ARs bc that was the modern semi rifle in the market that had to be made “in common use.” It was the proxy for all to come.

The mini14 exists specifically because the AR was seen by Ruger as problematic from a marketing/PR standpoint.

The Miami Dade killers used a mini 14 right?
Funny how best laid plans do not work. Now, I believe the mini 14 was exempted from the Assault Weapons ban. If so, Bill Ruger’s intelligence shows through again. His company designed a weapon that does much what the AR did, used infamously to ill gains, but simply on marketing got exempted.

quote:

Originally posted by Magine Enigam:

quote:

Originally posted by Scott King:
I own exactly 1 AR that I spent $ 1600.00 on, + reloading components and a couple aftermarket accessories. It's the 6.8 SPC and now that load development is all done and it groups well, I can honestly say I don't own a more useless firearm. The 6.8 has nothing over the Savage 99 in 250-3000 or the Remington 722 in 257 Roberts it sits along side of in the safe. Why did I bother?

You should have gotten a 6.5 Grendel.

Actually, it's not too late. Just sell the upper in 6.8 and get another upper in 6.5 Grendel.

I've never been disappointed with mine, and I don't know anyone who has been. But we don't hunt moose with it or use it for bear protection.

I don't shoot mine much anymore since my right eye is no longer dominant. But if I chose just one caliber/cartridge for a rifle, it would be something in 6.5 mm. Ok - two - 6.5 Grendel and 6.5 x 55.

Like hell.

Look at the 6.8 ballistics. I can drive roughly 100 grain tsx's to the high 2000 fps and accurately.

The question is why do I need a deer load in heavier than normal rifle with a banana clip?

I have a lh Zastava in 6.5x55 that I paid about the same for, is much prettier, looks much more innocuous and groups as good as the 6.8. Why bother with the banana clip?

I should have passed, I don't need my neighbors and friends to see me as dangerous.

Like Saeed said, a gun never killed anyone. I can prove it. I've had a S&W Model 62 sitting in my top desk drawer for four years. I've kept a close eye on it. It's fully loaded, but it has never fired a shot in anger or hurt a soul.

quote:

Originally posted by Magine Enigam:
I think it's different things, Lane.

Why didn't the M-14 7.62×51mm or 308 catch on?

The .308 did catch on from Korea and Vietnam.

The .30-06 Springfield , .308 Win, and .223 Remington comprise 3 of the most popular calibers in the US.

"Far right whack jobs" Utter BS.
I know as many Dems that own one gun, an AR style, as I do Repubs with them. They consider them easy to use, mag stays out in a separate drawer, so safe. They were not comfortable being able to use a handgun. Sometimes Steve doesnt think when he spouts off.

quote:

Originally posted by theback40:
"Far right whack jobs" Utter BS.
I know as many Dems that own one gun, an AR style, as I do Repubs with them. They consider them easy to use, mag stays out in a separate drawer, so safe. They were not comfortable being able to use a handgun. Sometimes Steve doesnt think when he spouts off.

Tony,
Go back and re-read what I posted. It was not directed at owners of AR's but at gun show attendees. Have you been to a gun show recently? Any gun show other than a collector show has plenty of far right whack jobs.

Before Covid we would go to Knob Creek Maxhine Gun shot. You did want to stay away from the back tables as the Turner Diaries were on the light end of books for sale.

We went to a gun show this weekend. The main exhibitions were nice American and German Doubles. Yet, ARs are often present. Again, ARs are themselves fine.

In my home the old fashion 12 is home defense gun of choice. Across a room one must still be accurate, but easy of operation is king with less concern of over penetration.

Now, I would have no problem w people selling (buying a booth and displaying for sale) having to have a license and perform engage in background checks. I would be fine with an intermediary license between C&R and FFL for this selling.

Steve, there are only 2 shows with-in driving distance I want to spend getting too.
I see the same people at both. Most wear flannel or wool shirts, a few buckskins and coonskin caps, the blackpowder guys.
The only full cammo guys are the Guardsmen recruiters. Some may be far right, but you cant pick them out of a crowd. Most complain about to many fiberglass stocked rifles.
So no, I dont see what you are complaining about here.

quote:

Originally posted by theback40:
Steve, there are only 2 shows with-in driving distance I want to spend getting too.
I see the same people at both. Most wear flannel or wool shirts, a few buckskins and coonskin caps, the blackpowder guys.
The only full cammo guys are the Guardsmen recruiters. Some may be far right, but you cant pick them out of a crowd. Most complain about to many fiberglass stocked rifles.
So no, I dont see what you are complaining about here.

Sounds like heaven! Enjoy and count yourself lucky.

You are not describing a typical gun show in most of the US though.

Collecting pre 64 winchesters seemed to be the "thing" for the past generations.
many of those folks have died,in the last few years, and the guns for sale. Hundreds of them. They have so flooded the market here, they are bringing less than when they were bought years ago. Kind of sad in a way, some ones life long collection of beautiful guns sold for whatever amount, to be split between relatives.

It is kind of sad, I'm brokering a beautiful collection that a friend who has passed on owned. It was his pride and joy. His family hunts but they don't appreciate the collectable guns he owned.

A few years ago a nice collection of Parker shotguns was at both gunshows I go to every year.
I'm not a shotgun guy, but.... there was a cased 8 gauge. One of something like 11 made or there abouts. At the second show I saw it, he was under 2 grand wanting to move it for the family. It was very interesting and made me think, but I walked on. No idea the value, but thought someone should buy it, just to have.

There are places that auction collectible firearms.

Most here dont go for the auction house route. I know one that did, he was disappointed.