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Another American viewing Africa with zero first-hand knowledge or experience and trying to Americanize a region that it doesn’t fit. Ian Smith was war hero, a gentleman, and liked as a person by most all around him…black or white. I will say it again. If really wanted to “help” southern Africa…we would have supported the most civilized nation there. We failed. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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The facts are the facts. Your statement cannot change that. Also, your tourist hunting diss not make you an authority. Like I said, look at the photo that leads your post. No black people are in that photo bc Ian Smith’s government said they were not allowed to set there. Ian Smith can be a war hero. He was not a gentleman. He was a racist. He did, said, and upheld racists policies. We should and have chosen not to be like his regime. We are better and stronger for it. His regime is not a positive model. The fact you think it is, is sufficient to say all that needs to be said about you. | |||
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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Lane What you say is not only a historical fallacy but a moral abomination. 1. Ian Smith was not respected by the British. His power base was a few thousand families. The entire white population was about 200,000. 2. He was not respected by the black community. If he commanded any respect like you claim, the opposition would not have toppled him, the bush wars would not have started, let alone continued for decades. 3. You claim a "workable plan for slow integration". That is a load of BS. Workable for whom? Not for the local people. Not for the disenfranchised and the people who were denied equal status or basic dignity and respect. The only people to benefit from the "plan" was the tiny minuscule whites population of a few families. 4. Your claim about "slow integration" itself stinks of colonial arrogance and patronising. Why should any integration be slow? Why the delay? How many centuries do you need to integrate your society. 5. Look at the US. Look at your GOP. You have no integration in the US & particularly in the GOP. The GOP is controlled and dominated by rich old white men who want to continue their legacy, just like Ian Smith. No wonder you keep propagating the myths and lies. 6. You claim that "racial disparity in this Country was history until Obama resurrected it". This is blatantly FALSE. Racial disparity is evident all over the US and deeply ingrained in your society, your culture and your very spiritual existence. That is why you deny it. Obama did not "resurrect" it. He challenged the nation about shooting unarmed black people, racist whites killing blacks in churches, vigilantes virtually hunting blacks by chasing them on vehicles. You may think this is just normal in Texas history and a lot of fun for the whites who participated in it and laughed over a drink after the party! Such behaviour continues in police staff rooms and several other places where exclusively white people congregate. Even Trump is reported to make such comments in private. Why is the GOP represented only by 5% blacks. Based on your "plan for slow integration", when will the GOP have a demographic mix that reflects US society? Lane said
"When the wind stops....start rowing. When the wind starts, get the sail up quick." | |||
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The misinformation and ignorance this thread remind me of the naive beliefs of Jimmy Carter. I was in Zimbabwe for the 2002 elections (it’s been a long time, I think it was 2002 or close thereto… could have been the Constitutional Amendment to allow President for life)) Mugabe lost the election but like Muduro claimed there needed to be a run off. Jimmy Carter, in his profound ignorance of the “One man, one vote, ONE TIME” promise of dictatorship actually arranged to go to the fine country he and Heath created to referee the upcoming election to make sure it was fair. I literally laughed out loud that day with a bunch of Zim friends at The Porch when Jimmy expressed shock that his chosen man, Robert Mugabe, denied him and his crowd of dogooders visas. JudgeG ... just counting time 'til I am again finding balm in Gilead chilled out somewhere in the Selous. | |||
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Ernest, It is not so much that our liberal friends are ignorant…it’s just that they know so much that isn’t so. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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Doc I am NOT trying to insult you or personally attack you. I am pointing out the moral implications of some of the blatantly false statements you make. I asked the question "is it out of ignorance, prejudice or deliberate?". Believe me, I would not debate with you in such detail if I did not respect your character. Just for your information - Some of the Right wing values that are reflected in your posts are actually offensive to someone from my background and perspective. I have lived in a Western country for over 30 years and have got used to the issue. There are a lot of errors and falsehoods in your below comments. 1. Your ancestors revolted against your own King. It was not the local indigenous people who revolted and gained freedom. American "independence" was actually treason and revolt. It was NOT a freedom struggle like all other anti colonial struggles. You do not have a good understanding of colonial oppression or post colonial challenges. America occupied an entire CONTINENT with all its free resources and just enjoyed it - for FREE. 2. The US is a Neo-Colonial behemoth. Please read any credible research and it is unequivocal. 3. US history is founded on genocide of the natives. There were official policies to displace native Americans. Entire tribes were relocated. Tribes were virtually constrained within reservations that were a tiny part of their traditional territories. Historically such reservations were repeatedly further constricted by violating laws and treaties. This is US history. Your history is nothing other than the EXTERMINATION of indigenous societies and cultures. Many hundred of tribes are extinct because of official US policy - active or passive. 4. I do not understand your statement below about Com block. I did not say anything close to what you are alluding. I simply said that the Com block was NOT THE CAUSE of the problems in Zimbabwe (as you claimed) but a consequence. Communism had a tiny historical time frame of about 100 years or so. Its social and political impact has far greater implications. The essence of the com block is that it was a reaction to oppression, poverty, dehumanisation etc. by the rich and powerful feudal barons and neo capitalist oligarchs. While communism has corruption at all levels, unrestrained criminal capitalism is far worse in terms of unrestrained corruption. No communist leader was indicted like Trump for such crimes. American & other global corporations have been guilty of far more serious crimes including mining companies indulging in genocide of indigenous people in Africa, Amazon, Papua New Guinea etc. Private corporations instigate and profit by waging wars - Dick Chaney and the Iraq war is a great example. There are literally millions of examples of corruption within the capitalist system. 5. My leaving India was purely an entrepreneurial venture and had nothing to do with any system being better or worse. I also lived & worked in other non-communist environments in India. Your assumptions and assertions are not only wrong but again a challenge to your intent. Your intellect and character are far better than that. 6. Any credible Higher education is NOT left leaning. It is focused on historical facts and accuracy of research. Any credible educational institution looks to gain and propagate knowledge based on validity. It is the Right that is opposed to historical facts being recongnised, taught and used as the basis of building a stable society for the future. It is the Right that spreads fake news, conspiracy theories and "alternative facts" in order to disrupt and discredit the truth. It is the Right that is authoritarian and anti democratic. It is the Right that is racists and misogynistic. Doc, it is always a pleasure to debate with you. I think you showed a lot of courage and integrity in the way you responded to Lane about "all Democrats being bad". Cheers.  ________________________ Doc butler said "Naki, your argument is that your education and experience are somehow more correct than mine… maybe they are- certainly you have more depth of being a colonial subject perspective than I do. While we both were under England’s yoke historically, my ancestors revolted earlier at a higher success level, and we have a longer post colonial history than you do. The US was never a colonial power- expansionist and “imperial” in a way, but not colonial. Other than a few soldiers who had experience with battlefield atrocities, the US never deliberately had the goal of extermination… forcing the natives to become part of the US mainstream culture, yes. Bad outcomes, certainly, removal of native culture, yes. One can certainly argue that is evil, actually it was severe paternalism, but it’s not the same as extermination. If our goal was extermination, we would not have put folks on reservations and agreed to feed them (although the follow through was atrocious). India (and New Zealand) have also done similar things in the past as well, but you seem to think the US has a greater responsibility for these acts than your own do. Face it, simple math shows India had slavery a heck of a lot longer than the US. You may think that the combloc forces just acknowledged reality better. I disagree, and again, as shown by results today, it was not better for the people long term. Communism, in the words of that great man you hate, is the equal distribution of misery. It does not do a good job of producing the optimal amount of goods per person, and seems irreparably linked with corruption at all levels. You dealt with the communist unions and while you claim you were successful and did well, you did not stay there, so obviously you didn’t feel it was a good system. As to the right also indoctrinating, yes they can. However, most right wing indoctrination happens where? Right now, higher education tends to be left of center compared to its society, and business/commerce is a bit more outcome driven. Sure, our higher Ed leftists are undoubtedly less far down the socialist path than other nations because the U.S. is less socialistic as a whole. You need a bit of introspection as well. You tend to start most replies to me by calling into question my morals, and that is a form of personal attack, which you are upset about others doing to you." "When the wind stops....start rowing. When the wind starts, get the sail up quick." | |||
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Naki, You aren't still carrying on, bloviating about a country your have spent a handful of hours in? Heck, your own words say visiting doesn't make one an expert. Say, have you gotten over your misogynistic insults yet? opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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Naki Actually reminds me of Trump. "Im not offensive! You're offensive. Im great at dealing with offence, the best. | |||
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oh my .. i was between sips of coffee when i read this - opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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Lane, blatant repetitive lies don't help your case. I'm not sure why you've decided to step up on this soap box, but you're just making yourself look like a racist idiot. -Every damn thing is your own fault if you are any good. | |||
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Amazingly astute - yes, America is the only former colony to have fought for, and won, it's independence - and Yes American, Canada, Australia, and NEW ZEALAND are different forms of colonialization than the rest of the empire - every historian agrees -- so, yes, an economic refugee states he didn't leave India for working in a better system ..
Shockingly, this is EXACTLY what "maga" also believes, but as the reality of universities don't meet this standard, it's a whacky world. Most Universities in the US, and almost the entire primary and secondary school unions, are run by radical leftists - this may be your most astute statement about the US, even though you meant it the other way round opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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So....what you're saying is that the most educated people are the most liberal people, right?  -Every damn thing is your own fault if you are any good. | |||
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Timely I feel to introduce this. NZ universities currently have a real problem. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DRiBp51r4iM | |||
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Mike, Lane, lavaca, and I each have a couple degrees... you make the call  opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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An anecdotal anomaly....  -Every damn thing is your own fault if you are any good. | |||
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Lolz opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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No lies here…I steer clear of liberal tactics. As to your opinion of me…ask me if I care.  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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All lies. You're becoming just like your idol, trump. -Every damn thing is your own fault if you are any good. | |||
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Anyone who would defend and hold up a political regime that seeks as an end goal ethnic minority domination coupled with ethnic subjection as condemned themselves. I need to say no more. | |||
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It’s my understanding that Smith, compared to the folks in South Africa or the hardliners in Zimbabwe, was a moderate. He intended for (over time, and likely it would have been slower than it should have been) there to be black participation in elections and government. Yes, by current standards he was a racist. But he was also a realist, and part of the reason for UDI was an attempt to stave off communism and tribal politics. Certainly what has happened in Zimbabwe could have been handled better.
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Shh, don't tell naki, his home country does this opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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Doc Your response is a bit better than Lane's exaltation of Ian Smith. However you still dilute the moral issues. This was not 19th century or the middle ages. This was as recent as 1970s and 80 when many of us were adults. The response of the US and the UK at that time impacted people like me and others who lived in a post colonial environment. This is the kind of Right wing attitude that I find offensive.
"When the wind stops....start rowing. When the wind starts, get the sail up quick." | |||
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I’m sure that makes all the victims of the Matebeleland massacre feel better, Naki. My point is that the US washing its hands of the Rhodesians and allowing Mugabe to take over, instead of staying involved and supporting a regime that they would have some relatively significant influence with might have gotten Zimbabwe/Rhodesia to a better place without the violence that occurred and the poverty and starvation that happened. Carter’s moral stand (which seems to be yours as well) killed a lot of people. It had nothing to do with realpolitik. I agree that the populace should select its rulers, and democracy is great for those who want it and can appreciate it. However, how much better off would Iraq be if we had not tried to impose democracy in the country? I dunno. But it seems like we killed a lot of people and had a lot of ours killed to “give democracy” or self rule to a group that really doesn’t seem ready for it. India is obviously a bit different situation, although I suspect Ghandi would not recognize what has become of his dream.
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Doc You don't get it. Right wing ideology is against freedom. You are talking about Carter. You fail to acknowledge that egalitarian rule should have been implemented 20 years earlier. The whites deliberately created and encouraged tribal conflict. The British had a policy of "divide and conquer". They did that in India by fomenting rift between Hindus and Muslims. They did that in many colonies by having a ruler from a minority community to rule over the majority. That is how Sadam Hussein, a Sunni, ruled over a Shia majority. "When the wind stops....start rowing. When the wind starts, get the sail up quick." | |||
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Its really fascinating how people can make such statements and beleive them. | |||
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Doc Read this and do some in depth research. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wik...f%20such%20divisions. "When the wind stops....start rowing. When the wind starts, get the sail up quick." | |||
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It's all an act mate. I have it on good authority that this avatar, hiding behind a nom de plume, is not like this in person... . | |||
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Yep, I hosted him a number of times and he doesn't talk like this in person. But I have come to beleive that on line hes speaking what he actually thinks. | |||
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Interesting perspective. I wasn't aware you two were acquainted. . | |||
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Naki the hypocrite.. providing wikipedia links when he scoffs at them being presented to him. Such a fragile ego opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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He's unlikely to stand in the presence of any American and spout off like this. But remember, as a child, he stood down rioters at he estate gates, w times, and faced down village elders for exploiting laborers.. in INDIA!!!! How bad do you have to be to people in the land of wooden scaffolding on high rises to have them raise up against you. 3 times? By his own words. opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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You guys need to understand a few thing 1. This is about Colonialism and Zimbabwe in my lifetime as an adult. I was involved in student support movement in 1978. 2. This is also about my perspective and what I know from actually having studied the stuff at very detailed levels. Not just anecdotal bumper sticker BS. 3. If some told me to my face that colonial rule was good for India, you would get a response that is far different to what you see here. Unless you have first hand experience of post colonial and neocolonial issues, you would not understand. The position some have taken that somehow white rule was beneficial to colonies is very offensive. Just think of a scenario. Let us assume that you and your family and children are held ransom by terrorists. You are not physically harmed. But you are told that freedom will be given some day. Would you accept it as a fact or modern life, of the times? Would you accept an indefinite possibility in the future? "When the wind stops....start rowing. When the wind starts, get the sail up quick." | |||
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It depends. Quite honestly, all governments hold you "hostage" for following "the rules" (aka the "rule of law"). The question is, do you agree with the rules? Are they fair? are they reasonable? Look at Saeed. His nation is not a democratic one, yet many folks from both your native land, and your adoptive land voluntarily live there. Is it fair for all who get there? I don't think so, but for the vast majority, they are free to leave ye they don't. That I am able to vote is nice, and gives a feeling of some control, but at least here in MN the vast majority of the power comes from a 5 county area that I do not live in, that has a strong tendency to vote very differently than the area and community I live in... yet I don't go and grab a gun or a used tire and some gasoline and start killing folks from those 5 counties, do I? Note that you elected to move to a land run by whites with western values for mere economic reasons. Most of our points are not that minority rule is better, but rather that there are some universal concepts about life, liberty, and property that should be upheld for a government to be considered legitimate. For all the abuses that the white colonialists inflicted, and there were legion, the switching to a different group of oppressors really doesn't make it "better" does it? I have absolutely no complaint about how India went about becoming independent. While India has had issues, like all other democratic societies, they do seem to be progressing. My argument with subsaharan africa and its throwing off the colonial yoke is that they are not really progressing. You have dictators who have taken the place of the colonialists and are treating their populace even worse than the colonial powers did. Your fundamental argument is "I would rather be ruled by a guy who looks like me even if he is worse for me." | |||
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You need to understand something. This is the first reasonable post you have offered. If you ignore the threats and the fact no one is saying colonial rule was good for india. We are saying though that so far, Indian rule of india hasn't been that great for many Indians. And the double standard you hold in that regard/ Back too why its reasonable. You are not calling people racist or bigots because they disagree with you. No hyperbole on the offence front. Just your opinion and a viewpoint. Now the studies you have done on the subject.. What certificate/diploma/ degree do you hold from such studies? | |||
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And that is a very good argument and point! | |||
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Doc Freedom and popular rule should have been encouraged, developed and implemented by the colonists. India was struggling for freedom for over 100 years. Your arguments about MI are ridiculous. You do not live in a tyrannical, dedpotic society. You have lots of choices. You can move county, states, county etc. You are kot voersed. You have every equal right as all other citizens. You can participate in political opposition. Colonial rule oppressed polical opposition, often violently. Conservatism is fundamentally white supremacist. Look at the GOP. Conservatism was vehemently opposed to Civil right movement and giving equal rights to blacks. It happens today in the Conservative church where blacks have been condemned as the descendants of the murderer Caine and where women are not equal even today. Life liberty and property are not recognized for blacks in many parts of the US. American history is full of examples. Your social statistics prove it. Blacks havd far less access to health care as you know. That is not equal right to life. It is the same for Maori kn NZ. I work in Health care too. BTW, You and some others keep referring to my Indian origin. You fail to recognize that I am a New Zealander for over 30 years and have been an adult here for 3 times as long as in India. I find it offensive when you call it "adoptive country" , economic refugee etc. You use such labels to somehow diminish my standing as a Kiwi. Conservatism is opposed to minimum living wage , paying fair tax, propagating the truth through education and much more. Conservatism is aligned to racist hate groups, conspiracy theorists, anti democratic tyrants and anarchists. "When the wind stops....start rowing. When the wind starts, get the sail up quick." | |||
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Doc Freedom and popular rule should have been encouraged, developed and implemented by the colonists. India was struggling for freedom for over 100 years. Your arguments about MI are ridiculous. You do not live in a tyrannical, dedpotic society. You have lots of choices. You can move county, states, county etc. You are not coersed. You have every equal right as all other citizens. You can participate in political opposition. Colonial rule oppressed polical opposition, often violently. Conservatism is fundamentally white supremacist. Look at the GOP. Conservatism was vehemently opposed to Civil right movement and giving equal rights to blacks. It happens today in the Conservative church where blacks have been condemned as the descendants of the murderer Caine and where women are not equal even today. Life liberty and property are not recognized for blacks in many parts of the US. American history is full of examples. Your social statistics prove it. Blacks havd far less access to health care as you know. That is not equal right to life. It is the same for Maori kn NZ. I work in Health care too. BTW, You and some others keep referring to my Indian origin. You fail to recognize that I am a New Zealander for over 30 years and have been an adult here for 3 times as long as in India. I find it offensive when you call it "adoptive country" , economic refugee etc. You use such labels to somehow diminish my standing as a Kiwi. Conservatism is opposed to minimum living wage , paying fair tax, propagating the truth through education and much more. Conservatism is aligned to racist hate groups, conspiracy theorists, anti democratic tyrants and anarchists. "When the wind stops....start rowing. When the wind starts, get the sail up quick." | |||
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didnt last long | |||
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