Gun ownership data shared by gun makers, the NSSF, etc. for political purposes. https://www.propublica.org/art...glock-remington-nssf Just more proof that your private gun ownership information isn't private at all, and it wasn't the anti-gun people doing the buying and selling.

Note where the info came from, NOT the ATF but rather warranty cards.

Trust me on this one, the government does not know what you are buying, unless that gun is used in a crime, then it will be traced.

They damn sure trace the movements coming and going from international hunting trips.

Oh go cry a river.

If you buy Class III stuff you are known.

Big deal. It is easier to get a shot gun I. Great Britain than New York and New Jersey.

In most states, LE cannot even trace guns. The logs FFL’s are required to keep are sent to the Feds. 90 percent are on paper, and they cannot read efficiently. Honestly, those logs need to be a portal system w the ATF. FFL logs in and records acquisition and transfer. The thing is saved.


We had a woman make a stupid non criminal comment about school shootings. State police get called. I get called.

“We are going to make contact to see if we can get a feel of if x is serious?”

My response, “ Go ahead, but those words do not make a crime. Even if you feel she is dangerous, you cannot do anything about it.”

If you have a mobile phone, the government knows enough about you!

For the next thirty or so years my goal is to stay out of the headlines.

I've had background checks for jobs and licenses, suppressors , classes ect,...... I'm on Instagram and Facebook as well as AR, I think I'm the easiest guy in the world to know anything about.

I did notice years ago that when you Google "Scott King" Coretta Scott King floods the pages.

I thought that was funny.

quote:

Honestly, those logs need to be a portal system w the ATF. FFL logs in and records acquisition and transfer. The thing is saved.

Wow! No wonder you are a Harris voter! You support gun control.

FFL logs do not get sent to the Feds until a business closes. The trace system is nearly impossible on used guns, unless the gun was sold recently through an FFL and a paper trail leads back to the FFL, a bank transaction or CC purchase. On a new gun it is different because they start at the manufacturer, then the wholesaler, then the retailer. Federal law prohibits the digitizing of the information on a 4473.

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:
Honestly, those logs need to be a portal system w the ATF. FFL logs in and records acquisition and transfer. The thing is saved.

”

Literally illegal and forbidden

Not really.

FFLs have to log every firearm by SN in, and record by SN who they transferred to. Those logs have to be turned over and made available on demand to the ATF.

The problem is most logs are paper ledgers, and they cannot be read not shorted efficiently when requests are made from LE about guns confiscated in crimes.

I am for moderation of the process to permit that. Pass a law.

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:
Not really.

FFLs have to log every firearm by SN in, and record by SN who they transferred to. Those logs have to be turned over and made available on demand to the ATF.

The problem is most logs are paper ledgers, and they cannot be read not shorted efficiently when requests are made from LE about guns confiscated in crimes.

I am for moderation of the process to permit that. Pass a law.

Nope. You are dead wrong. There are laws to prevent making an electronic database for ffl records. And no, they aren't available "on demand" you really are in deep water that you have no data on. Suggest understanding the issue before spouting off.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Honestly, those logs need to be a portal system w the ATF. FFL logs in and records acquisition and transfer. The thing is saved.

Wow! No wonder you are a Harris voter! You support gun control.

Scary right?

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:
Not really.

FFLs have to log every firearm by SN in, and record by SN who they transferred to. Those logs have to be turned over and made available on demand to the ATF.

The problem is most logs are paper ledgers, and they cannot be read not shorted efficiently when requests are made from LE about guns confiscated in crimes.

I am for moderation of the process to permit that. Pass a law.

Nope. You are dead wrong. There are laws to prevent making an electronic database for ffl records. And no, they aren't available "on demand" you really are in deep water that you have no data on. Suggest understanding the issue before spouting off.

Government employee, raised pinky gun owner......

We have plenty of those on this site.

Jtex:

You do not know what you are taking about.

I have owned more class III stuff than you. They were all registered.

The ATF gets access wo a warrant to any FFL licensee address, the logs have ti be made available on demand. The offs must show the firearm, SN, and whom the firearm was transferred.

When the FFL holder’s license expires for whatever reason, those logs have to be turned over to the ATF.

LE can and do requests to “track” firearms seized in crime through these log. The problem is they are all on paper ledgers. The ATF is under staffed in this regard, and no one can efficiently read them when a request la is made.

Bam all for a law the modernizes that process to a portal system maintained by the ATF.

Others can disagree, but you are going to have to make a better argument then the above or the registration segment.

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:
Honestly, those logs need to be a portal system w the ATF. FFL logs in and records acquisition and transfer. The thing is saved.

”

Literally illegal and forbidden

Just my ignorant impression, but I am very skeptical that the Gov follows the law here.

quote:

The problem is they are all on paper ledgers

As it should be and as required by law.

.

quote:

Originally posted by Scott King:


Just my ignorant impression, but I am very skeptical that the Gov follows the law here.

It is not just you Scott, most people do not understand that the info on the 4473 stays with the FFL. When I run a background check the only thing about the gun you buy that the government knows is if it is a long gun, a hand gun or both. They have your information to see if you qualify but know almost nothing about what you buy.

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Bertram:

quote:

Originally posted by Scott King:


Just my ignorant impression, but I am very skeptical that the Gov follows the law here.

It is not just you Scott, most people do not understand that the info on the 4473 stays with the FFL. When I run a background check the only thing about the gun you buy that the government knows is if it is a long gun, a hand gun or both. They have your information to see if you qualify but know almost nothing about what you buy.

Love the almost

quote:

Originally posted by M.Shy:

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Bertram:

quote:

Originally posted by Scott King:


Just my ignorant impression, but I am very skeptical that the Gov follows the law here.

It is not just you Scott, most people do not understand that the info on the 4473 stays with the FFL. When I run a background check the only thing about the gun you buy that the government knows is if it is a long gun, a hand gun or both. They have your information to see if you qualify but know almost nothing about what you buy.

Love the almost

I specified what the almost was, long gun, hand gun, or both....they know NOTHING else about what you buy.

They damn sure record data digitally and monitor data from 4457s.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
They damn sure record data digitally and monitor data from 4457s.

That is sort of the point isn't it? You document what you own so you do not need to pay duty or go through the import process upon re-entry.

They do the same thing with stolen firearms, neither of which are prohibited by law.


When you buy a firearm, the government does not know the manufacturer, model, caliber or serial number, all that info stays with the FFL.

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Bertram:

When you buy a firearm, the government does not know the manufacturer, model, caliber or serial number, all that info stays with the FFL.

Steve, all of that information is right there on the FFL 4473. Very first thing actually.

“Section A - Must Be Completed By Transferor/Seller Before Transferee/Buyer Completes Section B“
This includes Manufacturer, Model, Serial Number, Type and caliber/gauge.

You ever wonder how the media so quickly reports that a weapon was “legally” bought and by whom?

If someone uses a firearm to commit a crime how does the government even know where to start their investigation of where the firearm came from?
How many FFL holders are within 20 miles of any of us?
It would be nearly impossible to find out where a firearm was purchased if that information was held only by the FFL holder on paper.

Actually, thinking this over, what information is input into the online background check?

If only personal info, then I guess the info on the paper isn’t known to the govt at the time of purchase.

Still don’t trust them!!

quote:

Originally posted by Huvius:
Actually, thinking this over, what information is input into the online background check?

If only personal info, then I guess the info on the paper isn’t known to the govt at the time of purchase.

Still don’t trust them!!

the only thing submitted online is your personal info and long gun, hand gun or both. The details pertaining to the firearm reside on paper with the FFL holder. You are correct, it is nearly impossible to trace a firearm that been used in a crime, unless it is recent manufacture or a paper trail back to an FFL exists.

I'm not suggesting trusting them, but understanding how the system actually works is not a bad thing.

quote:

Originally posted by Huvius:

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Bertram:

When you buy a firearm, the government does not know the manufacturer, model, caliber or serial number, all that info stays with the FFL.

Steve, all of that information is right there on the FFL 4473. Very first thing actually.

“Section A - Must Be Completed By Transferor/Seller Before Transferee/Buyer Completes Section B“
This includes Manufacturer, Model, Serial Number, Type and caliber/gauge.

You ever wonder how the media so quickly reports that a weapon was “legally” bought and by whom?

If someone uses a firearm to commit a crime how does the government even know where to start their investigation of where the firearm came from?
How many FFL holders are within 20 miles of any of us?
It would be nearly impossible to find out where a firearm was purchased if that information was held only by the FFL holder on paper.

LE starts with a recovered weapon which usually has a SN. From that they go to the mfger who can find out which wholesaler it was shipped to. That wholesaler then knows what dealer it was sent to. From that the dealer can look up the 4473 and affirm the buyer. It's not complicated. Just backwards tracing.

Usually the crime/dirty deed has already been committed so I see little preventative value in having faster access to affirmation of a buyer. AFAIK I believe that dealers keep all 4473s and only surrender them to ATF if they go out of business.

All of that changes once a gun enters the 2nd hand marketplace and the Feds get to the guy who can't remember who he sold the gun to 25 years ago in a gunshow parking lot. All of which was legal and remains so in quite a few states.

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Bertram:
All of that changes once a gun enters the 2nd hand marketplace and the Feds get to the guy who can't remember who he sold the gun to 25 years ago in a gunshow parking lot. All of which was legal and remains so in quite a few states.

If I'm in possession of a .22 pump rifle that my dad may have bought [probably used] 80 years ago and I want to will it away should I have a dealer legitimize it by receiving into his books and transferring ownership to me? Except for maybe one person in the family I don't think anyone else would want it.

quote:

Originally posted by ANTELOPEDUNDEE:

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Bertram:
All of that changes once a gun enters the 2nd hand marketplace and the Feds get to the guy who can't remember who he sold the gun to 25 years ago in a gunshow parking lot. All of which was legal and remains so in quite a few states.

If I'm in possession of a .22 pump rifle that my dad may have bought [probably used] 80 years ago and I want to will it away should I have a dealer legitimize it by receiving into his books and transferring ownership to me? Except for maybe one person in the family I don't think anyone else would want it.

Not at all. My point is just that a trace becomes a whole different matter once a gun has been in the 2nd hand market a while. I am not saying that we should register guns, just that the current system is a very long way from any sort of registration.

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Bertram:

quote:

Originally posted by ANTELOPEDUNDEE:

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Bertram:
All of that changes once a gun enters the 2nd hand marketplace and the Feds get to the guy who can't remember who he sold the gun to 25 years ago in a gunshow parking lot. All of which was legal and remains so in quite a few states.

If I'm in possession of a .22 pump rifle that my dad may have bought [probably used] 80 years ago and I want to will it away should I have a dealer legitimize it by receiving into his books and transferring ownership to me? Except for maybe one person in the family I don't think anyone else would want it.

Not at all. My point is just that a trace becomes a whole different matter once a gun has been in the 2nd hand market a while. I am not saying that we should register guns, just that the current system is a very long way from any sort of registration.

Agreed, but when one is getting on in years and has gun essentially like that then what to do with then when I croak. The wife said that she might just have the police come and take them. I say fawk that. Probably just try to sell them for what I could get.

quote:

The wife said that she might just have the police come and take them.

I just threw up a little...

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Bertram:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
They damn sure record data digitally and monitor data from 4457s.

That is sort of the point isn't it? You document what you own so you do not need to pay duty or go through the import process upon re-entry.

They do the same thing with stolen firearms, neither of which are prohibited by law.


When you buy a firearm, the government does not know the manufacturer, model, caliber or serial number, all that info stays with the FFL.

No it’s not. On a 4457 an agent is certifying that they saw the gun in the US with a certified stamp. That way when you come back with the gun you show the certified slip that proves prior ownership. No digital logging was meant to happen.

Not the case at all these days. When you form a certified 4457 today…you and your now registered rifles go into a digital database. I know this for fact.

quote:

Originally posted by Huvius:

quote:

The wife said that she might just have the police come and take them.

I just threw up a little...

I did too at the time. Best make sure that she doesn't inherit them.

They also run it through a data base to make sure it’s not outstanding in some way based on your description and serial number.

They run it through the computer when you register it, and then again each time it goes through customs. Kind of strange given what is going on, but it is what they do.

I agree that not having it in an electronic system is better. The government does tend to use data it collects for things pretty far removed from their legitimate reason for collecting the data.

As for tracing, I’ve always wondered its relative value in criminal enforcement. You have a gun used in a crime, and a suspect. What does proving he brought the gun legally do with the fact he committed a crime? The number of times they find a gun at the scene and use a trace to find the perpetrator is probably pretty damn small given all the rigamarole the registration process causes.

Using the background check and FFL registry to delay transfer in the name of reducing crime is an extralegal use of the system as authorized by congress.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Bertram:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
They damn sure record data digitally and monitor data from 4457s.

That is sort of the point isn't it? You document what you own so you do not need to pay duty or go through the import process upon re-entry.

They do the same thing with stolen firearms, neither of which are prohibited by law.


When you buy a firearm, the government does not know the manufacturer, model, caliber or serial number, all that info stays with the FFL.

No it’s not. On a 4457 an agent is certifying that they saw the gun in the US with a certified stamp. That way when you come back with the gun you show the certified slip that proves prior ownership. No digital logging was meant to happen.

Not the case at all these days. When you form a certified 4457 today…you and your now registered rifles go into a digital database. I know this for fact.

You do not always have a suspect or you have a whole bunch of firearms that this person w prior felon should not have. Both scenarios being able to go to where the firearm came from the transfer is useful.

quote:

Originally posted by ANTELOPEDUNDEE:

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Bertram:

quote:

Originally posted by ANTELOPEDUNDEE:

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Bertram:
All of that changes once a gun enters the 2nd hand marketplace and the Feds get to the guy who can't remember who he sold the gun to 25 years ago in a gunshow parking lot. All of which was legal and remains so in quite a few states.

If I'm in possession of a .22 pump rifle that my dad may have bought [probably used] 80 years ago and I want to will it away should I have a dealer legitimize it by receiving into his books and transferring ownership to me? Except for maybe one person in the family I don't think anyone else would want it.

Not at all. My point is just that a trace becomes a whole different matter once a gun has been in the 2nd hand market a while. I am not saying that we should register guns, just that the current system is a very long way from any sort of registration.

Agreed, but when one is getting on in years and has gun essentially like that then what to do with then when I croak. The wife said that she might just have the police come and take them. I say fawk that. Probably just try to sell them for what I could get.

Every Fed proposed bill to address non-FFL/private sell transfers has exempted such transfers you describe above.

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:
You do not always have a suspect or you have a whole bunch of firearms that this person w prior felon should not have. Both scenarios being able to go to where the firearm came from the transfer is useful.

Also useful is the new judicial authority to charge parents when their looney kids go off the handle.

Here in CO we have firearms storage laws.
In the mind of the ruling Left, it is completely acceptable for minors alone in the house to have zero access to a firearm for protection in the event of a home invasion.

There are occasions where minors commit violence with a firearm and if the parent is actually complicit in the crime or a conspirator then by all means, throw the book at them.
On the other hand, some perfectly law abiding parents may run afoul of the law simply because their child takes a gun from the home.

I ask, what good, functionally, is a weapon for home defense if it has to be locked up in the home?