The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Guns, Politics, Gunsmithing & Reloading The Political Forum Starmer and Zelenskyy meetingGo | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
One of Us |
What is Starmer’s solution? Can he help? Zelenskyy said no ceasefire without three things: 1. Return to pre 2014 borders 2. 100 % financial reparations ($1,000,000,000,000.00+++ ?) 3. Western troops (NATO?) on the ground providing combatants to go to war to protect Ukraine from any violations by Russia of ceasefire agreements. A Korean-style DMZ? Russia and Ukraine have been fighting this war for 100’s of years and no timeframe of the security troops was specified. …Somehow forcing those conditions on Putin is mandatory or Zelenskyy is clear he’ll continue the 2,000 death @week war of attrition that Russia is fine with fighting until Ukraine literally loses an entire generation . Stalingrad is not an ancient memory to Russians. This war is just a blip compared to the Great Patriotic one No pressure on Putin to date has in anyway caused Putin to wavier (Europe is still buying his energy, btw, financing the killing of Ukrainians) … but I guess that’s okay? Biden killed our LNG exports to Europe but I guess that’s okay, too. So, recognizing both Zelenskyy’s heroism and demands, what should Starmer and Europe do now. I submit that given the mess Trump inherited, the probably un-winnable war and a serious reality check of the risks of WWIII against a madman with nukes is a tinderbox for the whole world. One nuke and civilization may well end. Putin cares nothing for the doctrine of Mutually Assured Destruction. …. Yet, Trump is berated for not waving his magic wand and saving the world. Again, what can Great Britain do that would be effective and what are the U.S.‘s options if Zelenskyy continues with an all or nothing stance. Stalin was once told that the Pope was (righteously, I’ll bet) complaining to the world about some egregious act Stalin did. Stalin smiled and asked, “How many divisions does the Pope have?” Putin is well aware of that story and that Zelenskyy (brave as his people are) is slap out of warfighters. Anyone have that magic wand for Trump? Zelenskyy and TDS folks here seem to believe he has one that’ll make Putin cut and run. Which one of y’all is hiding it? JudgeG ... just counting time 'til I am again finding balm in Gilead chilled out somewhere in the Selous. | ||
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One of Us |
Another surrender monkey speaks. Trump surrendered to the Taliban last time he was President. How did that work out? Now the MAGGOTS want to surrender to Putin. | |||
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| One of Us |
You avoided the question. What action, other than East-West combat, can get the world out of this mess. Feeling belligerent with no divisions is just wishing the wind wasn’t in your face while you’re pissing into it. If you’ve got the wand, wave that son-of-a-bitch. Otherwise, beating on your drum as a hapless bellicose keyboard warrior is pretty darn sad. JudgeG ... just counting time 'til I am again finding balm in Gilead chilled out somewhere in the Selous. | |||
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| one of us |
As the OP stated: What is your solution then? Do you have a better idea?
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One of Us |
Ive not seen anyone taking that stance. I see lots of people critical of trumps "plan" to force the victim in this war to concede, because that is effectively what he is saying. A "peace deal" is very different to one side capitulating and the other side keeping all that it has seized. Publicly berating the victim to sign over XYZ or "we are out" is a pretty poor negotiating tactic. If Putin thinks support for Ukraine amongst western nations is 100% solid he's more likely to come to the table to negotiate than he will be having witnessed Trumps recent tantrum. And yes, I agree that Europe shouldn't be buying squat from Vlad. | |||
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| One of Us |
Like the competing caliphate wantabes Putin sincerely believes he is ordained by God to have autocratic rule. He’s Peter the Great with a Devine right and nuclear weapons. With that mandate from God, “more likely “ doesn’t even factor into this discussion, to my simple mind, anyway.
JudgeG ... just counting time 'til I am again finding balm in Gilead chilled out somewhere in the Selous. | |||
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| One of Us |
Actually, we are sending more LNG to Europe than ever before, facts matter. Not that I completely disagree with your overall comment. | |||
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| One of Us |
Facts do matter. I guess I wouldn’t clear that Europe would not have to be in any way reliant on Russian fuels if they were not for Biden‘s policies
JudgeG ... just counting time 'til I am again finding balm in Gilead chilled out somewhere in the Selous. | |||
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One of Us |
It is ironic that someone that wrote The Art of the Deal needs tutelage on how to do a deal. We only need to look back as far as the period leading up to WWII to understand that you do not negotiate peace treaties with tyrants from a position of weakness. Two things happen. One, you end up with a terrible deal. Two, the tyrant ends up violating the agreement anyway. I would support Ukraine in its efforts to fight Putin. I would negotiate with our (former?) allies to step up their support for Ukraine both militarily and economically. Then when it was clear to Putin that the West was united against him and prepared to stay the course, I would start a discussion on how to resolve the war. Folks act like Putin does not have his own problems. His economy is suffering. Support for the war is, or at least was, tepid. And the war with Ukraine has demonstrated that his military is not all folks have thought it was cracked up to be. Again WWII helps instruct us, when everyone was afraid of offending Hitler, Hitler pretty much did whatever he wanted. It has been widely written, and even admitted by German generals after the war, had the West taken a stronger stand with Hitler over Czechoslovakia and Poland, while Hitler was still weak, WWII could have been avoided. Western unity with Ukraine is all that is going to stop Putin and result in an acceptable negotiated resolution to the war. What happened last week in the Oval Office is only going to embolden Putin, strengthen his resolve and support at home and encourage him to go the distance. It was stupid. Mike | |||
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One of Us |
 You leave out the fact that Germany at the time was an engineering/manufacturing/science strong powerhouse. Russia??? Not so much. Russia is not really a threat because they have no tools, people, or capabilities to threaten with. Had Russia had the capability of the US military…Ukraine would have been annexed in 2 weeks. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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| One of Us |
You are simply wrong. One, as the German generals reported after the war, the military was in no position to respond in strength at the time the invasions of Czechoslovakia and Poland occurred. And that if Britain and France had taken a strong stance, as opposed to appeasement, German would have been forced to back down. The generals were in fact surprised at the non-response of the West. You are entitled to your own opinion, albeit often wrong, but you are not entitled to your own facts. Two, Russia is in a similar situation to Germany, although Germany was in the process of strengthening quickly. The fact that Russia is in a weakened position makes the case for standing strong even more compelling to achieve a negotiated peace. Mike | |||
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Tell that story to the 10's of thousands of dead and displaced Ukrainians.  Russia would have taken all of Ukraine had the Ukrainians not put on an amazing show in 2022, then the West supplied weapons(not nearly enough of them) or it would have already been game over in Ukraine. Russia is a threat, though as Mike says they are much weakened now....open your damn eyes, this is the time to stand up to Russian aggression, not to cave in. | |||
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Germany had manufacturing capability. Fact Russia none. Fact Germany was an engineering powerhouse. Fact Russia not. Fact Germany was a leader in science and math. Fact Russia never. Fact Due to the above Germany could grow strong. Fact. Russia can’t. Fact ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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Moderator |
Lane, Russia is REALLY GOOD at Math and advanced metallurgy - why the math? same as the metals, as these don't require actual large-scale resources to work on -- Russian engineering? say, aren't they still making and driving a 40s fiat knock off car? oh, and russia has "manufacturing" capabilities .. it's all crap, but they have a bunch of it -- that scares stevie opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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| One of Us |
So, if Russia is in such a weakened condition, why wouldn't we stand firm to force a negotiated peace that preserves Ukraine's territory and independence? Why in the face of Russian weakness would we concede to their demands and give them what they want? Do you not believe that acceding to tyrants simply emboldens them (strengthens their hand at home, gives them access to resources, etc.)? If the West is strong and Russia is weak, sounds like the perfect time to stay the course and negotiate a resolution that puts Putin in his place. You know, The Art of the Deal. Mike | |||
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| One of Us |
Daisey Honey, you should read the news sometime.....10's thousands of civilian deaths in Europe due to Russian aggression should be a concern for every American, that is unless you have drank so much orange Kool-Aid that you now think turning our back on our allies as they fight for freedom is the "right" thing to do. Scared? No, just informed. | |||
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| one of us |
Trumps ‘wand’ is vastly bigger and more powerful than Putin’s ‘wand’, and he has the power to stare Putin down, as Kennedy did to Khrushchev in ‘62. One phone call, “I’m telling you, not asking you…”. The problem is, Trump is sucking Putin’s wand while waving his own at the U.S. former allies, almost surely due to being buried in Russian compromat. You done fucked up, son, putting that traitor in power. | |||
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| Administrator |
The UK is bankrupt. And the present government is borderline commie. Reparation for what? Did America ever pay reparations to the country invaded. Starmer says he will pay the Ukraine the money the West have stolen from Russia as punishment for invading the Ukraine! Did any country take American individuals money when America illegally invaded other countries?? The world is upside down. And the West need to look in the mirror. Trump is going to give Russia the lands it had occupied from the Ukraine. America has already supported the Zionists, the New Nazis, in their ethnic cleansing of Palestine! America can only stretch a string so much! Once it breaks…….?? | |||
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| One of Us |
Fact: The US became an energy exporter under Biden. | |||
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| Moderator |
fact, that began in JANUARY of 2020 - pre-jobama -- but cute try It wasn't until January 2020 that Weekly U.S. Field Production of Crude Oil hit 13,000,000 barrels per day and at this level, consistently made the U.S. a net exporter of Crude Oil and Petroleum Products https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/..._energy_independence in fact, the US temp LOST being a net exporter under jobama -- (using exact, not average measurements, to help the math-impaired) is there ANYTHING you post that isn't an outright lie? ANYTHING? opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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| One of Us |
happy sunday Mike and finally and again except on cmre fiasco i have to agree with you ... they do not think the real way about russia and russians ... it is not because they do fancy stuffs that alas it is not working ... and contrary to the beliefs of some they have factories there ... | |||
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| One of Us |
but you are still importing a lot of them from us ...at a better cost but up to when ...? | |||
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| One of Us |
this is what we are exporting to you on a daily basis again just a drop ... 3.3 MMb/d. correction: In 2024, Canada produced 5.7 million barrels of oil per day, according to the Canadian Association of Petroleum Producers. About 4.3 million barrels of petroleum products were exported to the US per day. | |||
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| One of Us |
So Zelensky is in a position that he can make demands? I am impressed with the Ukrainian resolve and capabilities, but lets be honest... Ukraine's resolve may be all their own, but their capabilities are largely the west's. If the US and the EU were not sending massive amounts of aid in the form of economic support and advanced weaponry, the Ukrainian war would likely look more like the partisan actions that occurred against the Nazis in WWII... and with Putin, the response would be like the Nazis in WWII (or Stalin right afterwards...) Return to pre 2014 borders- possible but probably unlikely. 100% financial reparations? Not possible. Western troops on the ground in the border areas? Thats not happening on at least 3 fronts- first, its outside of NATO charter, second, it is not something that Russia would tolerate (maybe UN, but not NATO); thirdly none of the western nations would be willing to commit to that kind of money and risk. Hell, absent US involvement, I don't think there are that many deployable NATO troops available. I get nuclear brinksmanship. When has the US done it? When we felt it was an existential threat for the US- the Cuban missile crisis. We did give up quite a bit (behind the curtain) to resolve that one- like agreeing not to try and invade Cuba and removing the short range missiles that were the threat that the Soviets were trying to counter from Turkey. You keep going to the wall with nuclear threats, and what happens? One they become less credible, two, while the alliance governments may want us to do this, their people (with all their anti US military protests) don't like US overt nuclear threats. I get that the western powers feel that we are jumping ship from their perceptions of our commitment to Western security... but they seem to forget that we also are looking at this as a fight that has to stop at some point. I don't know what Ukraine's real final red line goals are- they might be able to get one of the three that Zelensky has proposed. Which one? And are Zelensky's stated goals what the average Ukrainian is willing to keep dying for? A deal requires compromise. What compromises are we expecting the Russians to make, and what compromises are the Ukrainians to make, and what compromises are the other nations of the world willing to step forward with? | |||
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| Moderator |
the us buys something like 95% of canadian crude exports - https://www.cer-rec.gc.ca/en/d...-states-in-2023.html and is an important role is us crude -- but, let's be honest - the canadain oil trade is roughly 2 vlcc or one ulcc per day -- the former can offload at many ports, the later only on one gulf port - (i still say gulf of mexico, fwiw) -- and with MANY full vlcc parked in region, getting more oil wouldn't be a problem -- it's a DUMB idea to engage with a trade war "within the family" -- but there's no scenario where canada wins opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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| One of Us |
of course you will win at which cost and for which winning is the most important. your president started it not the contrary ... are you trying to imply like in the case of zelensky it is us starting it ... and again thinking that you are not a trump supporter is hilarious dont be ashamed of what you are ... | |||
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| Moderator |
show me a SINGLE post that i have made that supported trump's hissy fit on Z or where I supported a trade war - just one I don't get involved with the ukraine posts, if i can help it - i am not informed enough to make meaningful, insightful posts as to what's going on there, other than russia is getting kicked HARD - I didn't vote for trump, couldn't be compelled to do so -- but some of what he is doing is just common sense, and then there's trade wars with friends, which is stupid === you might not be used to people that can say "yeah, i don't hate that" without being a fan - I don't hate what he's doing with illegals -- sure do wish congress would follow up with laws -- one time, here, i was accused of being a a soyboi liberal AND a trumpy, on the same day -- that was funny ... but sure, be my guest, you are invited to provide the feedback, where i supported a SINGLE whacky, stupid thing that has come out of trump's mouth -- as I do 1 liners literally every week for the last 20ish year, i am pretty good with that- - opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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| One of Us |
Starmer: Starmer said "we are at a crossroads in history," and unveiled the following plans: The UK, France and others have agreed to work with Ukraine on a plan to stop the fighting - this plan will be discussed with the US and together they will take the plan forward During the summit, four points were agreed: To keep military aid flowing into Ukraine, to have Kyiv at the table for any peace talks, for European leaders to to aim to deter any future Russian invasion of Ukraine and a "coalition of the willing" will be formed to defend Ukraine and guarantee peace there Additionally, the UK will be giving Ukraine access to £1.6bn ($2.01bn) to buy new missiles Europe must do the heavy lifting in any peace deal, Starmer said, but the agreement would need US backing You can bet Trump will be dead set against this plan because it does not give Putin everything that he has demanded. | |||
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| One of Us |
that will be hard to get the backing of usa ... first they stand to russia second they want zelensky gone or having a nice approach and bend to trump and putin ... and of course third the approach that came up is of course not what putin wanted nor what trump offered ... | |||
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| One of Us |
And Trumps after the noble peace prize, so this will not fit his plans. | |||
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| One of Us |
i forgot that too lol | |||
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| One of Us |
Juist watched Starmers speech, and it was logical and responsible. Keep Ukraine able to defend itself and apply pressure on Russia economically while they are weak. Which gives Europe time to upgrade its defences. Then when peace is reached that's not solely on Russias terms, Europe will be in a position to ensure no further aggression from that quarter. | |||
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| One of Us |
Mike: Stay the course and maybe eat a nuke? There are no re-do’s with a mushroom cloud in Times Square or Piccadilly. Figure out a guarantee that Putin won’t so act and I’ll vote for you as king of the world. Putin’s troops are terrible but they have an ace in the hole and can destroy the whole world in 30 minutes. No one seemed to remember that but Trump.
JudgeG ... just counting time 'til I am again finding balm in Gilead chilled out somewhere in the Selous. | |||
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| One of Us |
Putin is gonna nuke the US over Ukraine? And, we should cut Ukraine loose because of that? Would have happened Day 1 of US assistance if it was a real thing. Please.  -"I need ammunition, not a ride." | |||
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| One of Us |
That sounds exactly like the sort of fear that drove France and England before WWII. Oh, if we do something, Putin might get mad. We have been funding the fight in Ukraine for several years and Putin has done nothing with nuclear weapons. He realizes that is the end of his country. Even tactical nuclear weapons. Since we are quaking in our boots over Putin, let’s give him Poland and maybe Finland too. Oh me, if we offend him there may be hell to pay. One would have thought that the actions of Neville Chamberland and Edouard Daladier 80 years ago might have taught us something. Mike | |||
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| One of Us |
And how is that any different than when Reagan won the cold war other than since that time you can bet your ass that our nukes are far better maintained than those of the Russians? You can't just let any nuclear armed power rearrange world order on a whim, if you do WWIII surely will happen. Trump needs to grow a pair and look to how past US presidents have handled threats from other nuclear armed states, it was not by tucking tail and running. | |||
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| One of Us |
. . . MAGAts cheering for another Munich Agreement. Mike | |||
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| One of Us |
You don't think there's a big clue in the fact that Trump met secretly with Putin for hours, then chose to castigate Zelensky in public? You mean that doesn't make you go, "Hmm..."? Right now, Putin is wearing a smile of smug satisfaction. It's obvious to anyone with functioning neurons that Trump is trying to make Zelensky give up some of the territory Russia has occupied. Under a peace treaty with no US security guarantees. When Putin has already violated prior treaties. Zelensky would be a traitor to his people if he went along with that. I hope Europe stands up for Ukraine and picks up the slack if the US withdraws support. Let Trump and Vance stamp their feet on the sidelines. | |||
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| One of Us |
I suppose, Judge, that if North Korea--which has nukes--invades South Korea, we should just stand on the sidelines, clucking and flapping our hands? A dictator with nukes should be allowed to do what he wants, eh? I'm glad our presidents up to this one have had more backbone. MAD has kept us out of a nuclear war for seventy-five years, since before I was a kid practicing under-the-desk drills in school. Putin is a rational actor. He knows that pressing that button insures his own annihilation. He has too much power, money, mistresses, and property to lose. A leader with any guts would stand up to him, as Biden did. (One of the few things Biden did right.) | |||
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| Moderator |
Oh, honey -- you said
Which means, as trump has said he wants peace, that you don't --- you see how emotional absolutist outburst work? Oh, honey, i KNOW you have me on "ignore" -- and I know that you still read EVER one of my posts -- you just can't help yourself .. i get it, losing about 300:1 has got to sting, but you could do better opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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