The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Guns, Politics, Gunsmithing & Reloading The Political Forum NZ Election last night.Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
| One of Us |
We had our election yesterday. It was, considering our system, an emphatic rejection of the woke identity politics of the last 6 years. The two right wing parties can form a govt without the need of support from anyone else with the left combined only just managing to retain over 1/3rd of voters. Some of the safest Left seats Such as the west coast where I live, which is where the labour party was formed has fallen too the right. Even the MT Albert electorate which traditionally gos too the leader of labour, because its safe and was Jacinda Arden and Helen clarks electorates came within 100 votes of falling. Also very notable. The left did not win or hold a single seat outside of a city! | ||
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Progress! opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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| One of Us |
https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/13...-intl-hnk/index.html New Zealand shifts right as voters punish ruling party Helen Regan By Helen Regan and Jerome Taylor, CNN 5 minute read Updated 9:16 AM EDT, Sat October 14, 2023 ************* Real conservatives aren't radicalized. Thus "radicalized conservative" is an oxymoron. Yet there are many radicalized republicans. "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis Per my far-right friend: "reality sucks" D.J. Trump aka Trumpism's Founding Farter, aka Farter Martyr. Qualifications: flatulence - mental, oral and anal. | |||
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| one of us |
Now, if the new government just avoids screwing it up. If conservative governments truly adhere to conservative values and sensible governance, they should be in office for a long time. If they give in to temptation and forget who put them there, they'll lose again. That's how it works everywhere. Regards, Bill. | |||
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| One of Us |
Here in the USA, when was the last time a "conservative administration came even close to a balanced budget? Calling themselves conservatives is a phony scam. | |||
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| Moderator |
Clinton, with a GOP congress, and Bush II -- you know you are behind on your tuition payments, right? opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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| One of Us |
If Bush II ever had a balanced budget, I missed it. If he did, it's only because he carried the Iraq war costs off the books. | |||
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| Moderator |
you did https://fiscaldata.treasury.go...de/national-deficit/ opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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| One of Us |
You pull that out of your ass? The 2008 deficit was close to 1/2 trillion and the 2009 deficit he left Obama was over 1.4 trillion. | |||
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| One of Us |
I fail to see how that link supports your claim. Bush II was a big spender. A couple trillion for the Iraq war--again, carried off the books. He also presided over an expansion of Medicare without funding for it. And tax cuts without corresponding spending cuts, which only increased deficits in later years. I don't see how you could call him a fiscal conservative, if that's your intent. | |||
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One of Us |
  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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| Moderator |
Your question/statement was that you missed it when bush II had a balanced budget - the chart "us deficit by year" shows you -- it might also change your opinion as to what a "big spender" is -- or it may not, opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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| One of Us |
The only good budget Bush II had was the one left him by Clinton. | |||
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One of Us |
One thing is for sure, NZ took the reins back to conservatives and that’s a good deal for All Black Good for you guys Congrats to beating Potato Eaters Nothing like standing over your own kill | |||
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| One of Us |
It was a Republica congress during those Clinton years, they held the purse strings. The new Republicans spend like a liberal. | |||
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| One of Us |
The funniest thing Ive seen this morning is Elon Musk congratulating the New PM and saying "Thank goodness." The left is going into a tailspin over it. | |||
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| One of Us |
Clinton got what he wanted. The GOP didn't have a veto proof congress. | |||
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| Moderator |
Fair point If you'd like to have a budget/deficit conversation, I think we need to agree on terms, roles and responsibility, and "first year accountability" Here's what i believe - please tell me where you differ, we can talk through these, and perhaps both come to a better understanding The budget is a plan, the resulting deficit is the result of the implementation and changes to that plan in areas where the budget either doesn't exist, needs modifications, or has been exhausted, continuing resolutions and spending authorization bills are passed The POTUS has two, and only two, roles as explicitly stated - in the case of submitting a budget to congress on the first monday of february, and the constitution obliges him to sign (approve) or disapprove (veto) bills sent to him to become law, once passed by congress Congress has two different Houses, the House of Representatives and the Senate - Explicitly, the House alone is NOT congress, as defined by the constitution Budgets have to be approved by September 30th for the Next fiscal year - The Fiscal year is Oct 1st- sept 30th Congress's role in the budget process (to simplify) is to approve, reject, approve with modifications, and to send an approved budget to Congress In Theory, the President cannot materially alter the budget and spending plan, without an accompanying Bill from Congress All spending bills MUST originate in the House, as defined by the constitution - the senate may alter that in their bill, but the subject MUST initiate in the House It is a Government process to PASS a budget before 9/30/XX to keep the government operating under a budget - House, Senate, and POTUS have roles to play in this We agree to use EXACTLY the same measurement criterion for all "judgements" though, perhaps evaluation is a better word We agree that government websites/data, especially the CBO and GAO, are the sources of authority - non-government data/websites are secondary and should be considered biased (either way) Many things that happen in a President's first year are as a result of prior actions, including budget and economy - and the same potus is also accountable for the year after he leaves office Do I have any definitions/conditions that you disagree with? That we need to add? opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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| One of Us |
We damn sure agree on this. | |||
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| Moderator |
That infers that you don't agree with the rest? Or that you aren't willing to commit to stipulation/ROE for the conversation? opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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| One of Us |
I would point out that traditionally in the modern era, the executive usually does submit a budget proposal. It may not have any force of law, but it’s supposedly a combination of what the various heads of departments think needed and what the president feels are legislative priorities. As the president is considered the de facto head of one of the two parties and can reject the budget as a whole, it is part of a negotiation process. That’s not to say that I don’t agree that congress has been abrogating its duty to send a budget, and I do feel there should be consequences for the legislators if they don’t pass a timely budget… but it is simplistic to both deny the president having any role in the process before it hits his desk or that partisanship is not playing a role on both sides. | |||
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| One of Us |
It doesn't infer anything, I singled it out as in total agreement on that point. As for the rest of it, the president wields more than a small influence over what comes out of the process because of his ability to just say no when it hits his desk. By that same measure he can make certain demands as to what he wants to see in it. | |||
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| Moderator |
You are right, it doesn't infer anything that you did or didn't - i misstated that, and i should have said that *I infer* which is subjective. What else do you agree/disagree with? I'd like to move on to a conversation about the past budgets and deficits - Unless you are unwilling to have a structured conversation, without the ability to move/shift/change the goal posts and measurements ... Well, I tried to engage with you in a more than shouting across the room fashion opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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| One of Us |
I will add, Australia did well with their elections too. Jeff, wymple knows he will get his ass handed to him, dont expect a reply. | |||
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| One of Us |
Bees don't waste their time trying to show flies that honey is superior to shit. Jeff can have whatever opinions he likes. | |||
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| Moderator |
So, it's a simple thing - if you want to have a discussion of budgets and deficits, we should agree on terms, roles and responsibilities, and parameters - I guess that's too much to ask, and therefore you aren't actually interested in have said conversation. Well, ma, I tried opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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| One of Us |
It would make his little brain explode. | |||
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| Moderator |
I wonder if that line has ever worked on anyone not beholden to you? like.. ever ... Btw, your analogy is poor, as bees eat pollen, but i decided to take time out of my day to try and have a conversation with you - I reckon you are used to "shouting" people down that disagree with you -- btw, there's a horse paddock right over there, if you are peckish opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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| One of Us |
That chart shows that Bush II had a surplus only in year 2001--the year he took office, when Clinton's policies were still having effect. Every later year of Bush's presidency was a deficit year. So no, it doesn't change my opinion of what a big spender Bush II was. | |||
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| Moderator |
opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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| Moderator |
Scroll a little to the right on the chart - Bush spent approximately 1/2 of what Obama did -- so, I expect you'll agree that under Obama, Trump, and Biden, our CONGRESSIONALLY approved spend has been yyyhuge! opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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| One of Us |
Don't pretend to teach me anything. And my time is at MY disposal, not yours. The net is full of charts, year to year, and whatever info I might need. I do not require you to shape what I know. | |||
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| One of Us |
Bush kept 2 wars off the books, and didn't have the problem of the gov't trying to boost our way out of the mess made before he left. | |||
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| Moderator |
okay -- you can teach ME, then
I am wondering if you could explain that, as there's a couple ways one could "understand" your point - my going in assumption is that the deficit captured all the costs missing from the deficit, JUST LIKE EVERY OTHER PRESIDENT BEFORE AND SINCE -- as I would hate to have to face a world where Bush II was a financial super villain-level genius 1 - Bush II, in his "genius" managed to circumvent all government controls, defeating some of the best minds in the world, and the Government didn't pay for the wars, at all 2 - like above, but was funded through deficit spending hidden in continuing resolutions / appropriations bills, that is, not in his budgets, but in his deficits 3 - no one is certain how this financial "Genius" pulled it off, and we are all standing around, scratching ours heads, wondering what happened -- BTW, if you had modified/adjusted - then agreed to stipulations around this conversation, we'd both be fairly sure that we are using the same words with the same meanings Here's a decent article that says he didn't put all the costs in the BUDGET but the payments clearly show up in the DEFICIT https://www.theguardian.com/co...hidden-cost-iraq-war I submit that the concept of "bush ran 2 wars off the books" isn't entirely valid opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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| Moderator |
This wasn't pretending, when i "taught" you that Huntsville isn't even remotely close to the border. I am not saying a SUCCESSFULY taught it to you, but it was presented
opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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| One of Us |
I said close enough. Having been there several times I know where the fuck it's at. And 400 miles ain't shit concerning immigration. Do you think they all stay right by the river after they cross it? | |||
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| Moderator |
Yep, you ARE used to just shouting down persons that disagree with you - I bet you are a BLAST at thanksgivings dinners Yes, you said "close enough" and when corrected, you decided to double down on the same mistake, rather than "being taught" -- that makes you right twice ... Third time you are right, i can't pretend to teach you anything, as you already have your mind made up, and facts aren't going to change your mind - "Close enough"  I can't stop chuckling at someone that might have the perception that 400 miles is close enough, outside of extraterrestrial events. Well, maybe missing the target by 400 miles isn't a big deal when they crash satellites into Point Nemo -- Well, here's our attempted word of the day - diffusion - in simple terms, it means that things tend to become less concentrated the further you move away from the source .. opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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| One of Us |
By Michael Boyle Guardian March 11, 2013 When the US invaded Iraq in March 2003, the Bush administration estimated that it would cost $50-60bn to overthrow Saddam Hussein and establish a functioning government. This estimate was catastrophically wrong: the war in Iraq has cost $823.2bn between 2003 and 2011. Some estimates suggesting that it may eventually cost as much as $3.7tn when factoring in the long-term costs of caring for the wounded and the families of those killed. The most striking fact about the cost of the war in Iraq has been the extent to which it has been kept "off the books" of the government's ledgers and hidden from the American people. This was done by design. A fundamental assumption of the Bush administration's approach to the war was that it was only politically sustainable if it was portrayed as near-costless to the American public and to key constituencies in Washington. The dirty little secret of the Iraq war – one that both Bush and the war hawks in the Democratic party knew, but would never admit – was that the American people would only support a war to get rid of Saddam Hussein if they could be assured that they would pay almost nothing for it. The most obvious way in which the true cost of this war was kept hidden was with the use of supplemental appropriations to fund the occupation.By one estimate, 70% of the costs of wars in Iraq and Afghanistan between 2003 and 2008 were funded with supplemental or emergency appropriations approved outside the Pentagon's annual budget. These appropriations allowed the Bush administration to shield the Pentagon's budget from the cuts otherwise needed to finance the war, to keep the Pentagon's pet programs intact and to escape the scrutiny that Congress gives to its normal annual regular appropriations. With the Iraq war treated as an "off the books" expense, the Pentagon was allowed to keep spending on high-end military equipment and cutting-edge technology. In fiscal terms, it was as if the messy wars in Afghanistan and Iraq were never happening... https://archive.globalpolicy.o...tml%3Fitemid=id.html | |||
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| Moderator |
Yes, that's literally verbatim from the link I posted -
So, it was option 2 like above, but was funded through deficit spending hidden in continuing resolutions / appropriations bills, that is, not in his budgets, but in his deficits and reflected in his deficits, for those years, as all of the "special spending bills" are accounted for. So, ye olde augment that "Bush kept the wars off book" and he spent MORE than the deficits show, is fallacious. Budget is the plan Deficit is the result of the plan - Why is this so hard to grasp? opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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