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| One of Us |
And now Biden is giving clemency to everyone except 3 egregious cases on federal death row “because he’s worried Trump will override his pause on executions.” Some of these guys were on death row relating to laws Biden passed. Unbelievable. Note I’m not arguing that he doesn’t have the official power, but that this is an abuse of the power. | ||
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| One of Us |
I don't remember your outrage when Trump was issuing pardons, not clemency, sold by Giuliani for $2 million and giving Trump half, or when he pardoned relatives of family members, or when he pardoned Steve Bannon for the "Build the Wall" scam that directly ripped off MAGAts. "If you’re innocent why are you taking the Fifth Amendment?”- Donald Trump | |||
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| One of Us |
If I recall, I did say it was inappropriate for him to do that as well. | |||
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| One of Us |
Did you call it an "abuse of power" and "unbelievable"? I realize you took the Hippocratic Oath, not one against being a hypocrite... "If you’re innocent why are you taking the Fifth Amendment?”- Donald Trump | |||
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| One of Us |
It was an abuse of power for Trump. On the other hand, Trump had nothing to do with writing the laws that those criminals were sentenced under, so Biden is more fitting of the unbelievable part. | |||
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| One of Us |
He didn't pardon them, just changed a death sentence to Life Without Parole. "If you’re innocent why are you taking the Fifth Amendment?”- Donald Trump | |||
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| One of Us |
The death penalty is on its way out. Again, this is the president’s duly vested power. Being a prosecutor and being at the table when the decision to seek death is made, I can tell you it is a power, bargaining strategy. Take life and we won’t try to kill you. Note, that while KY statutorily recognizes death, the courts have not allowed a death penalty to be carried out since 2008. I doubt they will. Eventually, the our Ky. Sct., is just going to kill it off. The last LY gov to sign a death warrant was a Dem. The last two GOP governors did not even try to buck the appellate courts on the issue. To make child killing a capital offense (eligible for real life or death), we had to all but pinky promise not to seek death in child murder cases to get the legislator (GOP Supermajority) to add child killing as an aggravated circumstance to make the defendant eligible as a Capital Offense. Here we are 2 years later and we just certified one. A large segment of the population both Red and Blue do not approve of the state having the power to kill. Following the Constitution is not an abuse of power. It is using the power vested in the office as intended. Following the Constitution is not abuse of power. | |||
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| One of Us |
Not following the law is an abuse. Biden wrote some of the laws, including the punishment portion. So for him to grant clemency for those cases is both an abuse and hypocritical. The law is what it is. If you want to get rid of the death penalty, change the law. Last I saw, a supermajority of voters agree with the death penalty. It should remain. Folks sentenced to it appropriately should receive the punishment. If there is a reason the penalty was imposed improperly, then I’m ok with clemency or appellate removal of sentence. I’m fine with changing the law to remove it, if you can convince enough voters to pass it. This was an abuse of the power. Was it legal? Yes. But it is wrong morally. I’m not saying Biden should be prosecuted for this. I’m saying he’s a bad president for ignoring public opinion and will and circumventing the law based on his personal beliefs. Which makes him different from Trump how? | |||
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| One of Us |
Russia didn't help Biden get elected. "If you’re innocent why are you taking the Fifth Amendment?”- Donald Trump | |||
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| One of Us |
Alaska's 1959 Constitution, passed when the territory became a state, bans the death penalty. | |||
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Moderator |
Poor thing.. copium is available opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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| One of Us |
The law is what the Constitution expressly vests in the Executive. He is following the law. He is following the Constitution. If you do not like it, good luck changing it. The president is vested w this power. It is not an abuse of power to follow the express terms of the Constitution. And you are wrong on the death penalty in general. Let me know the next time you work on expanding capital punishment. | |||
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| One of Us |
Shouldn't you be in remedial reading class so you make a fool of yourself less often? "If you’re innocent why are you taking the Fifth Amendment?”- Donald Trump | |||
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Senator Kennedy — It’s horrifying that Pres. Biden has granted clemency to some of our nation’s most monstrous killers. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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| One of Us |
Did you read the crimes these scumbags committed? Rapes and horrific murders of children, murders of law enforcement. This is disgusting. These individuals don't deserve to breathe your air. A total denial of justice, a total demonstration of the incompetence of Biden and an insult to the each and every jury and judge that struggled with the issue and sentenced these SOB's to death. Biden is a disgrace. He has been for 50 years. | |||
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| One of Us |
The issue is two fold: 1) The president’s use of his vested and specific power as states in the Constitution is not an abuse of power. The mere fact one disapproves or dislikes does not create an abuse of power. When the Constitution permits an act, it is not an abuse. 2) The death penalty as a concept is very decisive. Both Res and Blue distrust it. I have had a say in certifying for death. It happens when the defense refuses to take a deal. I have a moral, not ethical, conflict on this. I have no issue if someone believes President Biden’s use of his constitutional power to grant clemency to federal death row convicts is not wise, distasteful, or a bad/foolish decision. That largely depends on one’s view of the death penalty or the jury system. That subject, how one feels, does not create an abuse of power. President Biden can be morally wrong. You might to differently. The fact remains the Constitution grants this power, vest (that is a very important word, this pier in the person of the president. When a president acts within the scope of the president’s vested power, the fact you dislike it does not make it an abuse of power. Soon, President Trump shall be vested with this power. He used it liberally last time. I disagree w who he extended pardons and clemency to. The face remains, unless he was bribed, the use of that vested power was not an abuse. I did not like how he used it. In part, I voted against him bc of it. If the next Dem runs in support of these pardons and grants of clemency, I’ll put that in the no category when making my assessment. That does not change these are legitimate use of the president’s powers vested by the Constitution. If you cannot live w a president having this power, stop complaining and start working to change the constitution. Good luck, you do not have my support. | |||
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| One of Us |
Again, LHeym, the majority of the population (over 60%) thinks that the death penalty should be used. There are a sizable number that have concerns that it is abused at times and applied wrongly, but the vast majority agree with execution if it is properly applied. It seems to have a majority support regardless of party. Sounds to me like you are making a blanket condemnation of your profession (prosecuting attorneys) if they are using it as a big stick to get out of trials. It also seems that you seem to be admitting that juries get things rather wrong with some regularity if you are worried about an innocent man getting convicted (especially given your past comments about how the verdict is never wrong...) If the president's misuse of the power is not an abuse, then how in God's green earth can you condemn Trump about his bad pardons? I don't deny that Biden has the right to pardon or commute, but the president gets elected to use power wisely as benefits the country. Biden's choice isn't something I would say is impeachable, but it is against what the majority of Americans want, and against what the folks who put him in office want. Therefore, while legal, the law of the land, and not something we can retroactively nullify, it is an abuse of the trust the country put in him, it is hypocritical of him, given that he was involved in making some of the laws, and he should pay a political and moral price for flouting the wishes of his constituency. | |||
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| One of Us |
I never said it was an "abuse of power" because he clearly has that power. It just shows how out of touch he is and how stupid he is. These are the scum of the scum and we shouldn't have to share air with them. Biden is as dispicable as they are. | |||
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“Mercy to the guilty is cruelty to the innocent” How much pain does this cause? | |||
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| One of Us |
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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| One of Us |
No, I admitted one may not like the jury verdict. I reject the idea juries “get it wrong.” That is because our system is not about a result. Our system is about the process. That is why appellate courts are not allowed to supplant the factual findings of a jury. Do jurors always find that a defendant (even for the most “evil”) Big T-truth is guilty in factual error? Yes, DNA has shown us this. Does that mean we throw out our jury system of justice? No. Does a president only have the power under the Constitution to pardon or grant clemency only to those I believe are more likely than not innocent. The answer is no. President Washington pardoned the most guilty ever of treason. President Johnson was nearly convicted of impeachment in the Senate bc he used his vested constitutional power to grant pardons and clemency to those who had engaged in armed rebellion or treason. | |||
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One of Us |
John Grissom and a co-author have published a book called FRAMED. It is about people wrongly convicted in death penalty cases. It is worth a read. In my local jurisdiction, a long-term district attorney used to have reelection advertisements, claiming that he had more people on death row than any other prosecutor in Georgia. Ironically, he was murdered himself, beat to death with a hammer. Puts a whole new level on “payback is a m——- f——-“ doesn’t it? Not incidentally, in the 5 or 6 death penalty cases/clients I defended against that D.A., none were executed or still remain on death row. Even with all the politics and pressures of death penalty prosecutions, and the iniquities of a destitute defendant (poorly funded), facing the power of the state, I sleep better knowing that none my former clients are going to die at the hands of the government because I failed my charge. God will take them in His own sweet time. One client of mine was sentenced to death (before a successful appeal and a life-without-parole plea). The judge began the “May God have mercy on your soul” epitaph, the big clock in the bell tower began to gong (10:00 pm, I think it was… lots of gongs) with a deep-throated explosive sadness and gasps and moans spontaneously erupted. The judge took 45 seconds to finish the sentence, tears in his eyes… mine, too. When you’re personally involved, it’s more than a theory. With all the equities and inequities abounding, I am so glad that I’m no more involved and can leave that angst to finer minds than mine. Death penalty stuff as a part of my experience as a prosecutor, defense attorney, public defender, or peon judge gave no joy and just plain sucked. Am I against the death penalty? No, I’m not. Sometimes, acts are so egregious that society, to function, may well need the pound of flesh it provides. I just wish there was a better process. JudgeG ... just counting time 'til I am again finding balm in Gilead chilled out somewhere in the Selous. | |||
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Good post Ernst.  Mike | |||
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| One of Us |
Thanks, Mike. I just wanted folks that there is a real toll on those who are involved in the process. As I said, it’s not just a theory to them. Will I see you at DSC? JudgeG ... just counting time 'til I am again finding balm in Gilead chilled out somewhere in the Selous. | |||
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| One of Us |
I, like you, have no moral or philosophical objection to the death penalty. I think there are many crimes homicides for which the only meaningful recourse for society is retribution. However, I do worry about the process and the inherent issue of fairness in some cases in a battle where one side represents the full force and resources of the state. Are there unfairly convicted individuals on death row? I have no doubt. Is the price of getting it right most of the time worth a few erroneous convictions along the way? I'm not so sure. No, I will taking a pass on Atlanta and Nashville this year. Honestly, with the show moving out of state, if I was going to travel for a show I would probably opt for SCI, bigger show and a nicer venue. Maybe next year. Mike | |||
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One of Us |
I just saw a report about a woman who was burned alive on a NY subway and the perp sat there and watched. Also, that no one else even tried to help her. They just video'd her burning alive and to death. I just cannot imagine the kind of people these ALL are. I do think there is room for the death penalty but it takes so long for criminals to serve their sentence it does not seem worth it. I also believe, if DP is abolished, criminals who commit the horrific stuff should serve their life sentence in the most discomfort possible. ~Ann  | |||
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One of Us |
Speaking of Biden as if he’s cogent is willful ignorance. The guy shouldn’t be driving let alone running the USA. Anyone here really think Biden is capable of making decisions? It’s beyond ridiculous the man hasn’t been removed from power. Kind…but ridiculous. | |||
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| one of us |
OK, that stopped me cold for a minute, like hearing "...justice delayed is justice denied..." DNA evidence has freed a lot of innocent people since it became admissible evidence. How many more were there, for which there was no DNA evidence to save them? TomP Our country, right or wrong. When right, to be kept right, when wrong to be put right. Carl Schurz (1829 - 1906) | |||
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One of Us |
Well, they might get prosecuted if they tried to help. Have gun on you in NY and you’ll get year in prison so combination of all this and Penny’s bullshit trial and everyone runs from helping 9n dire needs. This particular case is on NY prosecutors conscience | |||
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One of Us |
I see nothing wrong with "hard time". I see nothing wrong with "exile". If you are so horrible a person you have to be removed from society, I don't believe society owes you favored treatment. It's not execution,its not murder. If your behavior is so terrible you can't be a part of the group anymore you are on your own and the group is only responsible to the group,you are outside it now. | |||
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| One of Us |
Worth noting that death penalty litigation all the way to the chamber costs taxpayers more than LWOP does. If there were a way to be sure of the guilt I wouldn't object to the death penalty but the government doesn't score 100% on anything and there's no doubt innocent men have been executed in our collective name. "If you’re innocent why are you taking the Fifth Amendment?”- Donald Trump | |||
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| One of Us |
TomP: The quote is Adam Smith, The Theory of Moral Sentiments. Juries decide the death penalty. Not lawyers, not judges, (99%). Many people quick to swear by the jury system want to change it here. It is just not good problem solving in a system, to focus on changing one aspect without careful consideration as to how your change affects other parts of said system. Such as the effect on victims and the general populace that makes up your jury pool. Hence, Adam Smith's reminder, "mercy to the guilty is cruelty to the innocent." | |||
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| One of Us |
I apologize for prior attacks on you and your handle. Sounds like you have legitimate legal experience, and maybe actual judicial experience--depending on what a "peon judge" is. I still maintain that some of your legal remarks are off target, and don't sound very lawyerly or judicial at times. | |||
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| One of Us |
I think the risk of legal or juror error is high enough that the death penalty should be reserved for only the most egregious cases. The government shouldn't be in the wholesale business of killing people. If someone rapes and murders a child, I would not put them to death. I would want to see them sentenced to life without parole and placed into the general prison population. I think the death penalty should be reserved for the worst of the worst--serial murderers like Ted Bundy, mass murderers, and terrorists who have murdered. I'd also allow the death penalty only for cases that have been fought with an equality of resources. For instance, indigent defendants, whose defense must be funded by the government, are often limited in what they may spend. In Alaska, compensation for an expert witness is limited to $150 per hour--only for actual testimony, with no payment allowed for time to study the case and prepare a report. Good luck finding a decent, credible expert on those terms. | |||
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| One of Us |
That is how it is now. Only the most egregious cases qualify. Every state that retains death to satisfy the Supreme Court Cases has a statute that enumerates factors that must be present to elevate the murder to a capital offense. KY those factors are off the top of my head Child victim 12 and under (we did that) Multiple Victims Murder for Higher Prior conviction for capital offenses (not sure how that one come into play; multiple trials) Use of vehicle as the murder weapon The murder was committed by a member of a criminal street gang to further the gang's activities The killing of a state official or juror when murder is done retaliation of their official duty An intentional killing involving torture Some states have a murder in the furtherance of terrorism factor. The Fed factors I summarize below: The federal cases in which a defendant is eligible for a capital sentence are generally those in which: (1) the defendant is charged with a crime for which the death penalty is a legally authorized sanction, (2) the defendant intended or had a high degree of culpability with respect to the death of the victim, and (3) one or more aggravating factors specified in a statutory list are present in the case. The statutory aggravating factors include such factors as the commission of a killing in the course of another serious offense, the defendant's having a prior criminal history involving serious violent offenses, the commission of a killing after substantial planning and premeditation, killing multiple victims, or endangering the lives of other persons (in addition to the person killed) in committing the crime. 18 U.S.C. 3591-93.(1) To seek a capital sentence, a prosecutor must file a notice of intent to seek the death penalty. The notice must identify the aggravating factor or factors which the government proposes to prove as justifying a sentence of death. 18 U.S.C. 3593(a). I think these clemency grants are going to be an issue to best Dems up the head w in 4 years. However, I do not think no one will care from a voting standpoint in 4 years. An interesting fact the last numbers I saw by the Feds whites were certified by the Feds 38 percent to 20 something percent to African Americans. | |||
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| One of Us |
"Again, LHeym, the majority of the population (over 60%) thinks that the death penalty should be used." A majority also believes in abortion rights. I don't believe in the death penalty for human beings, but some of these killers are not human in my mind. Chop away at those who are so obvious a 2nd grader could call it. | |||
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| One of Us |
Again, so. Everything I said is accurate. Go try to expand your Capital Myrder statute if you do not believe me. Oh, and it is 55 percent according to Gallup. It is a split issue. Look at how many states have banned or held in abeyance the death penalty. | |||
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| One of Us |
I agree with this if he was too weak of bust and mind to run, he is too weak to remain in the executive’s chair. However, I am not in Congress w power to impeach bit the Cabinet. He should have reigned when he bowed out, and should have done that 6 months earlier. I honestly blame his wife. | |||
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| Moderator |
Joshua, I know i have slacked off on your typos, but brother, this one is a doosey opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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| One of Us |
Haha, I actually think that one was typed right and it changed it. We will try again. If President Biden was too weak of body and mind to run, then he is too weak of body, and mind to be occupy the executive chair. However, I am not in the Cabinet nor Congress to do anything about it. | |||
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