quote:

Machiavelli is often criticized for advocating a pragmatic, sometimes ruthless approach to politics.

quote:

He (Trump) said to be Machiavellian…which he is.

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I am extremely happy with this term so far.

quote:

Originally posted by Mike Mitchell:

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:
Except that FDR did violate established law and precedent in many places. His view was very much like what Trump said.

The big difference being that a lot more folks agreed with him than with Trump now.

You pointed out the SCOTUS packing... getting your own partisans into the supreme court and then changing bedrock precedent seems to be very Rooseveltian.

Then there was the wholesale violations of established international law with the lend lease act. Again, most everyone agrees he did the right thing, but it was a violation of law...

So Trump's behavior is neither unprecedented nor wholly out of the national character... its just that he's doing it with much less popular support than happened in the past.

You can also debate his comparative morality, but that's not a question of law...

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:
Except FSR never said anything like that.

He ran against historical, but not legal precedent. As soon as the politics permitted the Constitution was amended to enshrine the two term tradition as part of our government.

Oh, and despite what most history books say, FDR won the court packing debate. Folks resigned, he was able to appoint a majority that agreed w his view of the federal government which was obtained through Congress passing laws.

Actually, the big difference was that we were in the middle of the Great Depression and then World War II.

So....there's that.

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:
This point would actually be considered a point of justification of Trump’s acts.

If the situation is dire enough, you can ignore the rule of law to solve it.

Please point out where the Constitution says that.

Trump and a fair subset of his backers think we are in very dire straits with the border and huge deficit spending. They think this justifies whatever they do. That was Roosevelt’s position as well.

Were that true a $4 trillion tax break for billionaires would be unthinkable.

For you to say Trump is a traitor for what he is doing, to be intellectually consistent you either should be arguing that the situation doesn’t justify this kind of response; or you should be willing to admit that FDR is also a traitor (if that is the term you want to use)…

Trump is blatantly betraying his Oath and the Constitutional admonition that the "President shall take care that the Laws be faithfully executed."

I tend to agree that the situation isn’t as dire as the one facing us under Roosevelt, but I don’t agree that there is no problem at all.

I find Trump’s recent behavior excessive, inappropriate, and not conventionally legal. I think he’s doing the equivalent of hitting a fly with a 2x4.

I do think he is right in his goals as far as governmental efficiency and border control, just he’s doing it by excessive methods. Of course, if there was justification for the status quo, the democrats should be able to make the point.

They are even less coherent than Trump.

That takes some doing.

quote:

Originally posted by Mike Mitchell:

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:
Except that FDR did violate established law and precedent in many places. His view was very much like what Trump said.

The big difference being that a lot more folks agreed with him than with Trump now.

You pointed out the SCOTUS packing... getting your own partisans into the supreme court and then changing bedrock precedent seems to be very Rooseveltian.

Then there was the wholesale violations of established international law with the lend lease act. Again, most everyone agrees he did the right thing, but it was a violation of law...

So Trump's behavior is neither unprecedented nor wholly out of the national character... its just that he's doing it with much less popular support than happened in the past.

You can also debate his comparative morality, but that's not a question of law...

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:
Except FSR never said anything like that.

He ran against historical, but not legal precedent. As soon as the politics permitted the Constitution was amended to enshrine the two term tradition as part of our government.

Oh, and despite what most history books say, FDR won the court packing debate. Folks resigned, he was able to appoint a majority that agreed w his view of the federal government which was obtained through Congress passing laws.

Actually, the big difference was that we were in the middle of the Great Depression and then World War II.

So....there's that.

quote:

If the situation is dire enough, you can ignore the rule of law to solve it.

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:
This point would actually be considered a point of justification of Trump’s acts.

If the situation is dire enough, you can ignore the rule of law to solve it.

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:
This point would actually be considered a point of justification of Trump’s acts.

If the situation is dire enough, you can ignore the rule of law to solve it.

Trump and a fair subset of his backers think we are in very dire straits...

I tend to agree that the situation isn’t as dire as the one facing us under Roosevelt, but I don’t agree that there is no problem at all.

I find Trump’s recent behavior excessive, inappropriate, and not conventionally legal. I think he’s doing the equivalent of hitting a fly with a 2x4.

I do think he is right in his goals as far as governmental efficiency and border control, just he’s doing it by excessive methods.

Of course, if there was justification for the status quo, the democrats should be able to make the point.

They are even less coherent than Trump.

That takes some doing.

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Of course, if there was justification for the status quo, the democrats should be able to make the point.

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Originally posted by LHeym500:

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If the situation is dire enough, you can ignore the rule of law to solve it.

Here we go boys.

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Originally posted by RolandtheHeadless:
Damn it, what does FDR have to do with Trump declaring himself above the law?

Another deflection. Look! Over there!

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Originally posted by LHeym500:

quote:

Originally posted by Magine Enigam:
Someone in another thread used the Allegory of the Cave. It may have been jeffee, but he used it wrong as I recall.

The thing I find most disturbing and perhaps disappointing is that even when presented a convincing argument, hard core MAGAdites don't learn. They just retreat to argue basically the same worldview again later.

It really is beyond sad. That's because it shows the rabbit hole of polarization, the affliction upon the nation.

This affliction has a long history in human nature:

AI Overview

"The hidden message of Plato's Cave is an escape from ignorance."

"Plato's "Allegory of the Cave" describes a group of prisoners chained in a cave, only able to see shadows cast on the wall from objects carried behind them, believing these shadows to be reality; when one prisoner escapes and ascends to the outside world, he is initially blinded by the sunlight but eventually sees the true world, only to return to the cave and struggle to convince the other prisoners of the true reality, who are resistant to believing him due to their limited perspective; this represents the idea that our senses can deceive us, and true knowledge lies in the realm of ideas, not just physical perception."

===========================================

I think ideology taints the perceptions of the prisoners of it, just like the cave, perhaps more so. The evidence of that idea is clear.

===========================================

https://www.google.com/search?...r3AE&sclient=gws-wiz

Yes, Plato was an idealist. The concept being one’s mind created reality. However, the political point of The Cave is that the masses can be not just wrong and deceived, but destroy those who tell them the truth.

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:
The connection to FDR is that if you are willing to say for a good enough reason that breaking the law is moral and not wrong then you have changed the argument from law and order/the law is right to a relativistic debate of what is bad enough to make it OK.

Both Lincoln and FDR violated the law in the pursuit of a greater good... at least most would agree with that.

That takes you from an absolute argument to a relative one.

Trump compared to FDR is a sorry comparison in what they are facing, but if you buy that the unelected bureaucracy is a threat to the US comparable to Nazism...

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:
The connection to FDR is that if you are willing to say for a good enough reason that breaking the law is moral and not wrong then you have changed the argument from law and order/the law is right to a relativistic debate of what is bad enough to make it OK.

Both Lincoln and FDR violated the law in the pursuit of a greater good... at least most would agree with that.

That takes you from an absolute argument to a relative one.

Trump compared to FDR is a sorry comparison in what they are facing, but if you buy that the unelected bureaucracy is a threat to the US comparable to Nazism...

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
He is the most pragmatic President of my lifetime except maybe for Reagan.

I am extremely happy with this term so far.

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I am extremely happy with this term so far.

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Originally posted by Magine Enigam:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
He is the most pragmatic President of my lifetime except maybe for Reagan.

I am extremely happy with this term so far.

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I am extremely happy with this term so far.

Of course you are.

And proud too.

And you say Obama was the most divisive president.

Trumpism is your thing.