quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:
The last Republican Gov of California.

If the Faction wins the soul of the GOP, he will remain the last Republican Governor of California.

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:
Gov. Schwarzenegger was elected in 2003-2007.

The hard cultural push by the GOP to the right makes a man like Gov. Schwarzenegger unelectable in a GOP primary.

Even in California, the McCarty’s of the world have taken over the GOP.

A person like Gov. Schwarzenegger is who can win a general state wide race in California, or win a General Election for president (his naturalized status being disqualifying for him personally not withstanding).

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
What I find bewildering is why anyone would care what a B-movie (yeah I like and watch some B-movies) actor would think about anything.

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:
Well, Gov. Schwarzenegger is more successful in business than President Trump (no company bankruptcy).

Using the law to one’s advantage in a business venture is bad? If so…the law must be inherently bad. Let’s get rid of them.

Gov. Schwarzenegger saw Nazism first hand, and has been a life long registered Republican in a state and industry that is not a popular position. Unlike President Trump who flipped to Dem in NY.

That and $10 will buy you a cup of coffee in CA.

Why should we listen to you again.

By all means please stop!

Your abortion position has been rejected by Conservatives in South Carolina.

It is in negotiations.

However, you are so tied in to National Politics.

Happy to give voice to the most innocent and helpless human life on the planet.

Send some more money to Hershel Walker. A candidate in GA that you would have loved to see win.

Senators and Congressmen from other states…I view as votes. They don’t directly represent me. Hershel would have voted in a trend I approve of…like stopping this non-sense of men competing with women in sports — etc etc. I support all (R)s in Generals. I am a pragmatist…it’s about the votes.

You also never denied sending money.

I certainly didn’t for the Primary. Can’t remember about the General.

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:
The last Republican Gov of California.

If the Faction wins the soul of the GOP, he will remain the last Republican Governor of California.

quote:

Gov. Schwarzenegger saw this first hand in Nazis Austria.

quote:

Originally posted by tomahawker:
You all still fail to understand how Trump got elected. The Democratic Party of 25 years ago is dead and gone. Extinct. Unrecognizable to our parents and grandparents. If you could bring that Democratic Party to today Trump would never have been elected. He would have never even ran. But…there’s always a but, it isn’t the party of 25 years ago. It’s the new and improved party of trans gender, gay, reparations, debt forgiveness, defund police, we’re sorry for being America party. And if you don’t like it we will cancel you, ruin your career and life. Don’t t believe me? Ask Dr Palmer who legally hunted Cecil. Democrats did that. And so…you fight fire with fire. Bombastic no fucks given, independently wealthy, celebrity(thanks Reagan and Arnie for paving the way), antagonistic, over the fucking top is the ONLY way to even compete let alone win. Do you really think middle of the road, take the high road, say the right thing, be kind and polite has a snowballs chance in hell at winning anything in this day and age? Take our very own dedicated group of posters here in the crater. Foul language, name calling, chest bumping, fuck you’s are the norm with most. And most you all tend to be liberal voices. Being moderate is an invite to be eviserated and gutted. No no you have to slog it out, get down in the shit and act like a pig. Simply put-Trump out pigged the pigs. And nothing has changed except it’s worse. Whoever is running for the GOP better root hog or die because the modern day political landscape has no room for civility particularly when running against the party of diversity equity and inclusion.

quote:

Originally posted by DuggaBoye:

quote:

Gov. Schwarzenegger saw this first hand in Nazis Austria.

Born in 1947

quote:

Originally posted by Magine Enigam:

quote:

Originally posted by tomahawker:
You all still fail to understand how Trump got elected. The Democratic Party of 25 years ago is dead and gone. Extinct. Unrecognizable to our parents and grandparents. If you could bring that Democratic Party to today Trump would never have been elected. He would have never even ran. But…there’s always a but, it isn’t the party of 25 years ago. It’s the new and improved party of trans gender, gay, reparations, debt forgiveness, defund police, we’re sorry for being America party. And if you don’t like it we will cancel you, ruin your career and life. Don’t t believe me? Ask Dr Palmer who legally hunted Cecil. Democrats did that. And so…you fight fire with fire. Bombastic no fucks given, independently wealthy, celebrity(thanks Reagan and Arnie for paving the way), antagonistic, over the fucking top is the ONLY way to even compete let alone win. Do you really think middle of the road, take the high road, say the right thing, be kind and polite has a snowballs chance in hell at winning anything in this day and age? Take our very own dedicated group of posters here in the crater. Foul language, name calling, chest bumping, fuck you’s are the norm with most. And most you all tend to be liberal voices. Being moderate is an invite to be eviserated and gutted. No no you have to slog it out, get down in the shit and act like a pig. Simply put-Trump out pigged the pigs. And nothing has changed except it’s worse. Whoever is running for the GOP better root hog or die because the modern day political landscape has no room for civility particularly when running against the party of diversity equity and inclusion.

Uhhh?

I could say I rest my case.

But ----

Quote:

"Ask Dr Palmer who legally hunted Cecil. Democrats did that."

WOW.

Have you ever heard of the "Southern Strategy"? The shift in the Democratic Party was more than 25 years ago. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...s%20in%20the%20South.

The shift in the Republican party has been a steady trajectory and momentum for a long time too.

As the hate and loathing grows, mostly based in lies, so does the justifications.

Understanding how and why Trump got elected is one of the easier parts of understanding it all.

Taken into account all the lies (Carlson, et al) disinformation, fears and fantasies (secular Qanon and Christian), it's understandable - the demagogue formula, strong man, fixit man, win by any means man.

One thing is clear - Trump brought out all the fascist fodder from under their rocks into the light.

How can something be fixed by people who don't recognize they are the problem?

quote:

President Trump is the fever one gets with a disease. The fever, President Trump, is not disease.

quote:

Originally posted by tomahawker:
Think it was republicans protesting outside Dr Palmers office?

quote:

Originally posted by tomahawker:

quote:

President Trump is the fever one gets with a disease. The fever, President Trump, is not disease.

I agree completely with that. What we disagree on is the disease. Which party has main stream media’s support? Which party is more likely to defund police? Which party is more likely to ban hunting imports from Africa and ultimately ban hunting completely? Which party is more likely to forgive student debt? Which party is more likely to extend citizen rights to non citizens? It goes on and on.

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:
Well, Gov. Schwarzenegger is more successful in business than President Trump (no company bankruptcy).

Gov. Schwarzenegger saw Nazism first hand, and has been a life long registered Republican in a state and industry that is not a popular position. Unlike President Trump who flipped to Dem in NY.

Why should we listen to you again. Your abortion position has been rejected by Conservatives in South Carolina. However, you are so tied in to National Politics.

Send some more money to Hershel Walker. A candidate in GA that you would have loved to see win. You also never denied sending money.

Still waiting for an answer in the Justice Gorsuch forum to a plain and direct question.


Roland us still waiting for a scripture based argument he asked for months ago to abortion as a blanket sin. You called us old ladies when he pressed you for an answer.

Still waiting for an answer to my yes or no question on whether your individual religious experience should be the dictating principle for how we regulate pregnancy and women’s agency in this country.

I have noticed when the Faction gets a question they do not like they a) ignore it, or b) ask a bunch of questions that does not answer the question posed.

quote:

Originally posted by Magine Enigam:
Which party (the members) are likely to buy into lies and mis/disinformation, particularly in affirmation of stuff already believed?
Both are.

Which party is likely to believe the rule of law can be suspended in order for their goals to be achieved?
Both parties do this.

Which party is more likely to deny citizens' rights to all citizens equally?
Here you are playing semantics. Both parties play games to their perceived advantages.

Which party is more likely to dishonor the constitution, especially regarding the outcomes of elections, and even the fair election process?
Both do. Look at JFK’s election. Look at the reaction to Trump’s election. And yes, look at 1/6.

Which party more likely favors conflating govt, the constitution - rule of law, with Christianity?
You finally wrote it specifically enough that your point is valid in its specific sense. However change Christianity to some other word, and the Dems do it as well.

Which party (the members) believes the statement from their chosen leader that the media is the enemy of the people; the same leader who shunned the Correspondents Dinner for four years?
You mean to say that the media is fair and unbiased? Look to what you have been saying about Fox News. Remember Marion Barry. Both sides are capable of being more concerned with winning than anything.

and so forth.

The answers are already proven, with no remorse, just excuses.
American politics became more about partisan winning than about any moral consideration long before I was born. Heck, before the GOP was created.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
I applaud both Tomahawker and Dr. Butler. Both presented spot on analyses.

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:

American politics became more about partisan winning than about any moral consideration long before I was born. Heck, before the GOP was created.

quote:

Originally posted by Magine Enigam:

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:

American politics became more about partisan winning than about any moral consideration long before I was born. Heck, before the GOP was created.

It seems to me that much about the GOP is rigid ideology. And, most importantly, if it's not a winning formula, or can't be sold well enough to win at the polls, that's where the problem is. It becomes a matter of will.
That's because you are a leftist ideologue. Both sides are rigid, and oppositional. Its your worldview that makes you see the left as being the reasonable adults in the room. There are reasonable leftist politicians, and there are reasonable right wing politicians. Neither party is run by its reasonable elements because they need division and some form of xenophobia to win.

The ideology just becomes more rigid, and so does the means to win.
Exactly, on both sides. Look at some of the things that the left is pushing and their occasionally leaked internals and the left is every bit as bad.

Example, even your politicians can admit that the sales job of "its good for the planet" isn't what the real goal of the ecological/climate polices are...

https://www.nationalreview.com...bout-climate-change/

Note that the real source is behind a paywall, so this is the free sort of quote- I agree National Review isn't a nonpartisan source.

Right now, for example, the rigid ideology is on display, and the probable consequences.
You are pretty good at seeing some sort or rigid ideology on the right... its also there on the left.

If you on the left were not so fortunate to have a good boogeyman of Trump, your side would be in great danger, electorally right now.

GOPers, just keep on your track of Trumpism, and see what happens at the polls. Who are you gonna blame?
Here I agree with you. Trump is a cult of personality in the party, and a particularly poor one.

Politics is not a nasty word or realm, necessarily. Hard core people make it that way.
At one time, politics may not have been nasty or problematic. But the Greeks were hardly a great example. What did they do to Socrates? For political disagreement?

Politics becomes nasty when you have strong conflict in goals. Also, the Greek unit of politics was the town or city. Its a lot easier to get consensus in small groups.

As for the ancient Greeks, slaveholding, withholding the franchise, and very elitist attitudes of what was required to become a citizen make the conclusions of "virtue" a bit suspect. The folks allowed to contribute to political life were a very homogeneous group of men.

"The highest form of community is the polis. Aristotle comes to this conclusion because he believes the public life is far more virtuous than the private and because men are 'political animals'".[1]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...litical%20animals%22.

================================================

Well, our political animal instincts have run amuck.

quote:

Originally posted by Magine Enigam:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
I applaud both Tomahawker and Dr. Butler. Both presented spot on analyses.

Well, I disagree, especially of the word analysis.
I kind of agree, in that it doesn't particularly take a lot of in depth thinking to find points to disprove something.

It's more like well expressed views. The "analysis" part speaks of the person writing it. Butler thinks he sees both sides, but he really doesn't see either because he's so busy equivocating.
That's a laugh. It takes a bit of work to disengage from thinking your side is right all the time. It would be relatively easy for me to ignore the stupid that my side does. Yes, I consider myself a conservative person. I do usually think that the conservative errors are "lesser" and have to work at remembering that they are equally at fault for any problem.
Tommahawker is just reactionary and emotional, with a gut full of propaganda and hate.
Your statement makes a mirror for you. You have expressed a hatred of fundamentalist religion, and you seem to see it behind everything that is "bad" in the world. You are so convinced that you are being rational and by definition the other side is not. Well, I admit that I can see flashes of rationality in your discourse, but your knowledge base is pretty biased.

So, let's say, like Butler does, that both sides are equivalent, and the blame game is useless.
The blame game IS pretty useless except to rally the troops and get your side to be angry and motivated. It will not get you anywhere if you are trying to seriously advance a solution.

I dunno - how to solve the riddle. Maybe if we tried naming some things good about each party (side) and how that is distinguishing.

Anyway, I find it easy to blame repugs, but you always have or find wiggle room. Butler's method generally works well -- look over there and equivocate.

Specific, unilateral accountability is impossible in Butler's debate.
There you are wrong. Science and facts are what they are. Accountability is usually an individual thing.

Since you are on a Nazi kick, who/what were charged at Nuremberg?

Individuals.

It worked a lot better than the classic identification of a group/ideology (a la Versailles.)

What about this? Left or Right?

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news...b64584a617db760&ei=8

"I think they're gonna shoot him. I think they're gonna blow his airplane up" – Alex Jones Spreads Panic On His Podcast, Defends Trump Again

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:

That's a laugh. It takes a bit of work to disengage from thinking your side is right all the time.

.
You have expressed a hatred of fundamentalist religion, and you seem to see it behind everything that is "bad" in the world. your knowledge base is pretty biased.


Accountability is usually an individual thing.

As you say, people are political animals and identify with groups. You attack their group, and they unite and act badly. You see this clearly in the neonazis and proud boys easily. You don't see it (biased) as being Antifa, BLM,

Alex Jones?

Jones is hardly a right wing guy. He's out to find whatever audience he still has remaining to scam into listening to him. Is he targeting a subset of right wing folks who feel persecuted? Yes.

The left has been very active trying to identify anyone who is not supportive of their agenda as being a right wing neofascist crazy. That plays into the agents (I originally put in clowns, but Jones is not a clown, he is malevolent) like Jones.

As you say, people are political animals and identify with groups. You attack their group, and they unite and act badly. You see this clearly in the neonazis and proud boys easily. You don't see it (biased) as being Antifa, BLM, and the organized LGBTQ+ stuff.

quote:

Yeah, you haven't joined one tribe...