https://www.facebook.com/share/p/16TXfLkh91/


30 years ago, Carl Sagan predicted what the USA would be like in the future. How accurate is it today?

"I have a foreboding of an America in my children's or grandchildren's time — when the United States is a service and information economy; when nearly all the manufacturing industries have slipped away to other countries; when awesome technological powers are in the hands of a very few, and no one representing the public interest can even grasp the issues; when the people have lost the ability to set their own agendas or knowledgeably question those in authority; when, clutching our crystals and nervously consulting our horoscopes, our critical faculties in decline, unable to distinguish between what feels good and what's true, we slide, almost without noticing, back into superstition and darkness...”

~ Carl Sagan in "The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dar

"This constant lying is not aimed at making the people believe a lie, but at ensuring that no one believes anything anymore.
A people that can no longer distinguish between truth and lies cannot distinguish between right and wrong.
And such a people, deprived of the power to think and judge, is, without knowing and willing it, completely subjected to the rule of lies.
With such a people, you can do whatever you want."
-Hannah Arendt
(14 October 1906 – 4 December 1975)


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hannah_Arendt

Hannah Arendt[a] (born Johanna Arendt; 14 October 1906 – 4 December 1975) was a German and American historian and philosopher. She was one of the most influential political theorists of the twentieth century.[5][13][14]

Her works cover a broad range of topics, but she is best known for those dealing with the nature of wealth, power, and evil, as well as politics, direct democracy, authority, tradition, and totalitarianism. She is also remembered for the controversy surrounding the trial of Adolf Eichmann, for her attempt to explain how ordinary people become actors in totalitarian systems, which was considered by some an apologia, and for the phrase "the banality of evil." Her name appears in the names of journals, schools, scholarly prizes, humanitarian prizes, think-tanks, and streets; appears on stamps and monuments; and is attached to other cultural and institutional markers that commemorate her thought.

IOW, both Sagan and Arendt are talking about a form of nihilism.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nihilism

Nihilism is a family of views that reject certain aspects of existence. Different forms of nihilism deny different features of reality, ranging from the meaning of life and morality to political institutions and the possibility of objective knowledge. These views span various branches of philosophy, including ethics, value theory, epistemology, and metaphysics. Nihilism is often characterized as a broad cultural phenomenon or historical movement that pervades modernity in the Western world.

=================================================

It is also the theme of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nineteen_Eighty-Four

Nineteen Eighty-Four (also published as 1984) is a dystopian novel and cautionary tale by English writer George Orwell. It was published on 8 June 1949 by Secker & Warburg as Orwell's ninth and final completed book. Thematically, it centres on the consequences of totalitarianism, mass surveillance, and repressive regimentation of people and behaviours within society.[3][4] Orwell, a staunch believer in democratic socialism and member of the anti-Stalinist Left, modelled the Britain under authoritarian socialism in the novel on the Soviet Union in the era of Stalinism and on the very similar practices of both censorship and propaganda in Nazi Germany.[5] More broadly, the novel examines the role of truth and facts within societies and the ways in which they can be manipulated.

Im going to start my conversation here by quoting the last lines from another Orwell great on the same themes. Animal farm.

quote:

"The creatures outside looked from pig to man, and from man to pig, and from pig to man again; but already it was impossible to say which was which."

Remember the men were capitalists. The pigs were socialists.
His warning was that both achieve the same end when allowed too.

And so, Though I tire of repeating myself. We do not find ourselves in this position because of the right. rather equally we find ourselves in this position because of the radicalism, efforts for social conformity, and dogmas of both right and left.

To quote Bill Maher

quote:

The left lost a crazy contest too a crazy person.

And if you think that means voters were looking for crazy, then you are wrong.

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:
https://www.facebook.com/share/p/16TXfLkh91/


30 years ago, Carl Sagan predicted what the USA would be like in the future. How accurate is it today?

"I have a foreboding of an America in my children's or grandchildren's time — when the United States is a service and information economy; when nearly all the manufacturing industries have slipped away to other countries; when awesome technological powers are in the hands of a very few, and no one representing the public interest can even grasp the issues; when the people have lost the ability to set their own agendas or knowledgeably question those in authority; when, clutching our crystals and nervously consulting our horoscopes, our critical faculties in decline, unable to distinguish between what feels good and what's true, we slide, almost without noticing, back into superstition and darkness...”

~ Carl Sagan in "The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dar

Spot on.

and we might add when the usa became friend with russia ...

quote:

Originally posted by shankspony:
Im going to start my conversation here by quoting the last lines from another Orwell great on the same themes. Animal farm.

quote:

"The creatures outside looked from pig to man, and from man to pig, and from pig to man again; but already it was impossible to say which was which."

Remember the men were capitalists. The pigs were socialists.
His warning was that both achieve the same end when allowed too.

And so, Though I tire of repeating myself. We do not find ourselves in this position because of the right. rather equally we find ourselves in this position because of the radicalism, efforts for social conformity, and dogmas of both right and left.

To quote Bill Maher

quote:

The left lost a crazy contest too a crazy person.

And if you think that means voters were looking for crazy, then you are wrong.

From a previous post:

quote:

Orwell, a staunch believer in democratic socialism

Your post is food for thought. I like it.

There is a lot of reading, articles and videos, on the topic of Orwell.

https://www.bing.com/search?q=...&FORM=SSQNT1&PC=DCTS

I remember when in college one class in which two books were required reading.

Animal Farm and Atlas Shrugged.

Atlas Shrugged had the greater influence on my memory, probably because I didn't understand Animal Farm at the time.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Galt
Who is John Gault?


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayn_Rand
Ayn Rand


https://youtu.be/wmEkGu2sxwI?si=HHJmHIvEizNxwEdx
Ayn Rand Challenges the Moral Code of Altruism

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news...qJh?ocid=socialshare

The Curse of Ayn Rand’s Heir
Opinion by Christopher Beam • 3h • 31 min read

I have always been drawn too Orwells 2 famous books.
I have very few authors that I have kept on my shelves since a teenager.
Hemmingway, Harper Lee, Robert penn Warren, Thomas Hardy and George Orwell are it.
many of those books have ideas on equality and freedom.
So maybe they shaped my political thoughts.

As a young man of 25, I made the comment, that I have stuck with for most of my life since, that I always seemed to act like a socialist in my life, But when I voted, I voted for the right. Because I felt that the right would let me freely behave like a socialist.

The person I made the comment too told me I might be a rare breed, a classical liberal, or libertarian.
So its interesting to see this links opinion on Orwell that you posted ME.

https://fee.org/articles/was-g...ian-its-complicated/

It's fair to say that right now under the current political situation of the last 20 years. I despise, Despise! Both extremes of politics fairly equally.

I have always liked Elon Musk for his goals and lateral thinking/ or ability to be different. Loved him when he they tried to cancel him over buying twitter and his public response too companies removing their support or advertising, was fuck you!
Now I have to ask, would he be in the position he is if he was not the richest man in the world? The answer is no. If he wasn't he would be the my pillow guy.

And so I am coming too the conclusion that maybe we need open markets, globalism, free trade, and capitalism. But that the best thing we could do is put a cap on how much any one individual or company can own or control.

That's not a tax the rich concept either.

One other thing that's lately been on my mind. When I was growing up, as a 10 or 12 year old in school. We were taught about how great the western nuclear family was. Well I think the creation of the nuclear family, and then its destruction as we see it now, are some of the worst things to happen too the west.
We have allowed ourselves as a generality, to become more isolated than at any time in our history. That's despite all the tech we carry that lets us yell at each other.
I say this partly because Ive never lived in a nuclear family. I have and am part of a 3 generation extended family group. And the support that brings to each individual of each generation, in the specific ways they need it, is incalculably productive.

Well, Shanks, I appreciate the mild-mannered discussion and exchange of views.

I read the article you linked, and it is interesting.

It's also interesting that the left leans to democratic socialism and the right has tendencies towards democratic fascism, assuming there is such a thing.

It seems in the USA there is always a contest between the two ideologies. Democratic socialism has been around but never got a lot of traction. However right now a version of fascism, Trumpism, has lots of traction.

It's like which is worse, an embedded tick or a brainworm?

I say the brainworm is worse because the host is in danger of extermination, if not from the worm, with the cure. Whereas the tick can be plucked from the host and with a little antibiotic applied to the wound, healing is probable. Of course, in this analogy the left is the tick and the right is the worm.

I did a little lite reading and again verified the association of the Right and fascism. Mostly, the authors are talking about history. A lot of it is still applicable, but what we have now is something new, yet the prototype is still relevant.

My point, partially, is that curing a perceived democratic socialism, overreacting with a form of fascism, is not a remedy but a curse.

After all, which is consistent with Jefferson's Social Contract or Musk's lack of empathy comment? Which is more egalitarian, and which is more survival of the fittest? which is more consistent with the laws of nature or the laws of a civilized society?

The heading of the long article:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...deology#Conservatism
Fascism and ideology

Focus on certain sections:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...2008%E2%80%93present)
Contemporary fascism (2008–present)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...and_ideology#Fascism's_relationship_with_other_political_and_economic_ideologies
Fascism's relationship with other political and economic ideologies

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...deology#Conservatism
Conservatism

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/..._ideology#Liberalism
Liberalism

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illiberal_democracy
Illiberal democracy

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...ocracy#United_States
United States
and Relationship with populism

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:
https://www.facebook.com/share/p/16TXfLkh91/


30 years ago, Carl Sagan predicted what the USA would be like in the future. How accurate is it today?

"I have a foreboding of an America in my children's or grandchildren's time — when the United States is a service and information economy; when nearly all the manufacturing industries have slipped away to other countries; when awesome technological powers are in the hands of a very few, and no one representing the public interest can even grasp the issues; when the people have lost the ability to set their own agendas or knowledgeably question those in authority; when, clutching our crystals and nervously consulting our horoscopes, our critical faculties in decline, unable to distinguish between what feels good and what's true, we slide, almost without noticing, back into superstition and darkness...”

~ Carl Sagan in "The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dar

Those that don’t know history are easy slaves willing to trade their rights for “likes” (internet piety) as the Indians traded their lands for glass beads.

quote:

Originally posted by Magine Enigam:
Well, Shanks, I appreciate the mild-mannered discussion and exchange of views.

I read the article you linked, and it is interesting.

It's also interesting that the left leans to democratic socialism and the right has tendencies towards democratic fascism, assuming there is such a thing.

It seems in the USA there is always a contest between the two ideologies. Democratic socialism has been around but never got a lot of traction. However right now a version of fascism, Trumpism, has lots of traction.

It's like which is worse, an embedded tick or a brainworm?

I say the brainworm is worse because the host is in danger of extermination, if not from the worm, with the cure. Whereas the tick can be plucked from the host and with a little antibiotic applied to the wound, healing is probable. Of course, in this analogy the left is the tick and the right is the worm.

I did a little lite reading and again verified the association of the Right and fascism. Mostly, the authors are talking about history. A lot of it is still applicable, but what we have now is something new, yet the prototype is still relevant.

My point, partially, is that curing a perceived democratic socialism, overreacting with a form of fascism, is not a remedy but a curse.

After all, which is consistent with Jefferson's Social Contract or Musk's lack of empathy comment? Which is more egalitarian, and which is more survival of the fittest? which is more consistent with the laws of nature or the laws of a civilized society?

The heading of the long article:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...deology#Conservatism
Fascism and ideology

Focus on certain sections:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...2008%E2%80%93present)
Contemporary fascism (2008–present)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...and_ideology#Fascism's_relationship_with_other_political_and_economic_ideologies
Fascism's relationship with other political and economic ideologies

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...deology#Conservatism
Conservatism

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/..._ideology#Liberalism
Liberalism

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illiberal_democracy
Illiberal democracy

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...ocracy#United_States
United States
and Relationship with populism

Both achieve the same result. What it really is, and always has been, is an attempt to revert too a monarchy with a ruling elite class. Reallyits just will it be you in the elite. Or them.

We are close to democratic socialism here. Have always been left of the US. Im comfortable with that. Yet the left is never happy and our fight is always stopping it going To far.

Right now the murmers are about doing away with police and justice, and taxing the wealthy while preventing them from becoming wealthy in the first place.

But equally Ive become more critical and less tolerant of the right with/ since the example set by your nations current leadership situation.

Left or right, we have to stop any of the fuckers that crave power, from getting too much.

This is the most interesting thread on ARPF for months. And nice to see broomstick here again.