quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:
Baby it is Cold Outside implies rape.
WAP is just consensual sex.

Thus, one is wrong.

One may be in bad taste from one’s point of view.

I agree on the later. There is nothing inherently wrong with the actions of the participants in the WAP song. Its just whether you find its explicit nature offensive.

Im not sure though that Its cold outside signifies rape. He is imploring her to stay. And his reasons for that are clear. She is, far from finding his attentions concerning, More worried at what her family and the maid might think. She thinks hes grand. She would stay but mostly her concern is what her mother, sister, Aunt and the maid might think of her. So rather than being a commentary on male actions its more about the pressure placed on women by other women. Just listen to the lyrics- she says, she ought to say no- which implies she wants to stay.
I personally dont see alot, given the context of the time, wrong with it, its a conversation or negotiation on the terms of consent. If she feels safe from the mores of the wider society, she will stay.

I’ve listened to this song for 60+ years. Never once have I thought it referenced rape. Your imagination is too vivid, you’re stupid, or you’re just trying to stir a non existent pot. Get a life……

quote:

My point is this: you progressives can’t understand why conservatives are adverse to change? How can that be when the change you bring us normalizes pornographic music and brings it into the mainstream, while at the same time canceling an old classic because it they believe that it represents a courtship model that they believe is outdated?

Well written. The wokesters won't like it.....

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:
Baby it is Cold Outside implies rape.
WAP is just consensual sex.

Thus, one is wrong.

One may be in bad taste from one’s point of view.

Your manbun is way too tight!

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:
He does not let her leave when she ask to go.

Anyone who does not think this song does not imply rape is lying or being very dumb.

Your take is ignorant on multiple levels.

If you want to pick some lines, while completely ignoring others, you might be able make a case that it implies rape. But you would also have to completely ignore the historical context in which the song was written.

And what do you mean “he doesn’t let her leave”? Read the lyrics: she never tries to leave and he never does force her to stay. She mentions leaving and he tries to talk her into staying. In the song she mentions leaving, but does she sound serious? How do you explain: “I ought to say, "No, no, no sir" and “At least I'm gonna say that I tried”.

Courtship was different in the 1940s. Women were expected to resist a man’s advances, even if she wanted to have sex with him. To do otherwise would besmirch her reputation.

But you don’t have to take my word for it: Time Magazine

Here's another article about it, I remember when the daughter was first interviewed and she said her Dad wrote it for her parents to sing at parties.

https://ew.com/music/2018/12/1...defended-bill-cosby/

Yep, and so intent of the author must have some place in deciding whats meant, surely?

quote:

Originally posted by JTEX:

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:
Baby it is Cold Outside implies rape.
WAP is just consensual sex.

Thus, one is wrong.

One may be in bad taste from one’s point of view.

Your manbun is way too tight!

Only two reasonable explanations: either he's into his brother in law's prescriptions or his brother in law is into his and therefore shorting Heym.

quote:

Originally posted by Mike Mitchell:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by Schrodinger:
Lane, you set admirable goals for yourself.

However, that has little to do with music. People relate to music in an emotional way. For some strange reason this form of music is resonating with the youth. As MM explains, I no more understand the appeal than my father understood “The Stones.”

You want to decide if a lady has an abortion. Now, you want to decide what music kids listen to?

They can listen to what they choose. I am just not going to tell them it’s fine.

I don't think they care what you think about it. Which is the point. My kids like a lot of this rap crap. They like a lot of the music I like too. What are you gonna do?

Don't be a grouchy old fart. The kids will listen to what they want to listen to....and, that's OK. It's not the end of western civilization as implied by the OP.

My own and the ones who work for me do happen to care what I think.

Why? Because I spend time with them. I help them when they have problems or at least listen. Thus, when I have an opinion on something…they at least give it thought…and that is all I ask.

As to grumpy old farts…some of my best mentors in life were just that.

quote:

Originally posted by Scott King:

quote:

Originally posted by Mike Mitchell:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by Schrodinger:
Lane, you set admirable goals for yourself.

However, that has little to do with music. People relate to music in an emotional way. For some strange reason this form of music is resonating with the youth. As MM explains, I no more understand the appeal than my father understood “The Stones.”

You want to decide if a lady has an abortion. Now, you want to decide what music kids listen to?

They can listen to what they choose. I am just not going to tell them it’s fine.

I don't think they care what you think about it. Which is the point. My kids like a lot of this rap crap. They like a lot of the music I like too. What are you gonna do?

Don't be a grouchy old fart. The kids will listen to what they want to listen to....and, that's OK. It's not the end of western civilization as implied by the OP.

Is there a particular age you see as an appropriate point to give up parenting? "The kids will listen to what they want to," so why try at all?

I came home about two years ago un announced and caught the then 13 year old playing graphic rap music on the Alexa speaker. Of course she immediately shut it off upon my entry, but when I asked the three kids what that song was, with no hesitation my then four year old told me the title. I confiscated the speaker, told them I'd be Googling the lyrics and would get back to them later. Upon educating myself with Google I kept the Alexa speaker for a year, shut off the 13 year olds data on her cell phone and explained that if I couldn't count on her to responsibly censor what the four year old was hearing and seeing them nobody could listen to it under my roof.

Mike, that's unreasonable to censor x rated music from a four or six year old? "The kids will listen to what they want to"?

quote:

Originally posted by Mike Mitchell:

quote:

Originally posted by Scott King:

quote:

Originally posted by Mike Mitchell:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by Schrodinger:
Lane, you set admirable goals for yourself.

However, that has little to do with music. People relate to music in an emotional way. For some strange reason this form of music is resonating with the youth. As MM explains, I no more understand the appeal than my father understood “The Stones.”

You want to decide if a lady has an abortion. Now, you want to decide what music kids listen to?

They can listen to what they choose. I am just not going to tell them it’s fine.

I don't think they care what you think about it. Which is the point. My kids like a lot of this rap crap. They like a lot of the music I like too. What are you gonna do?

Don't be a grouchy old fart. The kids will listen to what they want to listen to....and, that's OK. It's not the end of western civilization as implied by the OP.

Is there a particular age you see as an appropriate point to give up parenting? "The kids will listen to what they want to," so why try at all?

I came home about two years ago un announced and caught the then 13 year old playing graphic rap music on the Alexa speaker. Of course she immediately shut it off upon my entry, but when I asked the three kids what that song was, with no hesitation my then four year old told me the title. I confiscated the speaker, told them I'd be Googling the lyrics and would get back to them later. Upon educating myself with Google I kept the Alexa speaker for a year, shut off the 13 year olds data on her cell phone and explained that if I couldn't count on her to responsibly censor what the four year old was hearing and seeing them nobody could listen to it under my roof.

Mike, that's unreasonable to censor x rated music from a four or six year old? "The kids will listen to what they want to"?

Let us know how it works out for you.

And, by the way, fuck you for your "give up parenting" comment. Asshole.

quote:

Originally posted by jdollar:

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:
Baby it is Cold Outside implies rape.
WAP is just consensual sex.

Thus, one is wrong.

One may be in bad taste from one’s point of view.

ABSOLUTE BULLSHIT! Anyone who listens to Baby it’s cold outside and thinks rape has serious mental problems. Anyone who listens to WAP and thinks good or even normal music has serious mental problems.

+1

quote:

Originally posted by JTEX:

quote:

My point is this: you progressives can’t understand why conservatives are adverse to change? How can that be when the change you bring us normalizes pornographic music and brings it into the mainstream, while at the same time canceling an old classic because it they believe that it represents a courtship model that they believe is outdated?

Well written. The wokesters won't like it.....

+1

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:
Baby it is Cold Outside implies rape.
WAP is just consensual sex.

Thus, one is wrong.

One may be in bad taste from one’s point of view.

Yet another clue as to your mental state.

This has been going on for decades. Look up 18 x rated hits by David Allen Coe. WAP did much better on the billboard charts, I will give you that. On the other hand, that comedian was hilarious.

quote:

ABSOLUTE BULLSHIT! Anyone who listens to Baby it’s cold outside and thinks rape has serious mental problems. Anyone who listens to WAP and thinks good or even normal music has serious mental problems.

I rarely agree with you on much of anything. I certainly will on this.

1st off, I will say that I have no use for rap, myself, + have to add that the kids these days wear their hair funny + their music is a bunch of noise.

We will see what stands the test of time. Be surprised if anyone remembers any specific rap in 10-15 years.
Do you recall grunge rock, head banger music? Did not last long and certainly not memorable.
Neither have a melody or harmonious tone.
Have you ever heard Rap or grunge rock backed by an orchestra or symphony or choir?
Neither are my definition of music. Not certain how i would define them.
I play a little guitar and piano. Grunge rock is easy; Just bang on one chord on a guitar as hard as you can for as long as you can. NO TALENT!
Rap? just some boob / Base device.
Boring...

I can sit back and listen to Comfortable numb, Bothers in arms, November rain, the weight,LA Freeway, Wicked games, Sultans of swing, Drift away, take it easy. That music spans decades and never gets old.
Over Thanksgiving I played Summertime on the piano (Porgy and Bess).
Our 30 year old kids were amazed. Never heard it
What is that?
I have well over a 1000 songs on my i pod. My kids in their 30's love listening to that music.

I used be sitting at a stop light and all the sudden the the area around me begins to vibrate.
The fellow in a car near by is rattling like a base drum.
I do not notice that as often any more. Either it has become less relevant or my mind simply tunes it out.

Note: most useful lyrics used to great effect.
Stones: You can't always get what you want but if you try sometimes you just mind find you get what you need.
Played that a lot for my kids as teenagers . LOL

Rap is not unlike other "entertainment" that
tends to push limits and boundaries that the mainstream is accustom.
Take a look at Howard Stern; He used this path to garner an audience.
He like Rap gets stale and boring after a while. Just like a broken record.



EZ

I'm still listening to "Baby It's Cold Outside" & trying to imagine how in the hell somebody sees rape in there.

He will not let her leave.
He spikes her drink either knowing.

That was the basic mo of Bill Cosby.

She is asking to leave the entire NF. Yet, he will not let her.

HORSESHIT! Loosen your man bun.

That is the words of the song. Regardless, if you like it. I do not have a man bun.

she doesn't ask to leave . She says she should leave.

To be honest the argument is utterly ridiculous, Its a song from the 1940s, a good song and its pathetic that nowadays we as a society cant enjoy something while understanding the context of the time it was written.
Its says more about the pressures placed on women and the risks they faced in being human at that time.
Same situation with little house on the prairie. Or to kill a mockingbird, tom sawyer. We should not treat people how people are treated in those stories, yet it was applicable too the time, yet they are still good books, greatly written with fantastic stories. Should we be removing Tess of the D'urbervilles from our bookshelves? How about the Bible?

But actually whats being missed is that he very clearly asks for consent in the line " Mind if I move in closer?" and her reply is " at least Im going to say that I tried."

now a woman in the world we currently live in should not have to make excuses for doing something she wants too do, or worry about what others think or the cost too her reputation. But they definitely did then.

Heym, can I ask you, was spiking a drink with drugs for sex a common thing when this song was written?

Political Correctness taken to new heights by the woke crowd….

quote:

Originally posted by jdollar:
Political Correctness taken to new heights by the woke crowd….

quote:

Originally posted by shankspony:
she doesn't ask to leave . She says she should leave.

To be honest the argument is utterly ridiculous, Its a song from the 1940s, a good song and its pathetic that nowadays we as a society cant enjoy something while understanding the context of the time it was written.
Its says more about the pressures placed on women and the risks they faced in being human at that time.
Same situation with little house on the prairie. Or to kill a mockingbird, tom sawyer. We should not treat people how people are treated in those stories, yet it was applicable too the time, yet they are still good books, greatly written with fantastic stories. Should we be removing Tess of the D'urbervilles from our bookshelves? How about the Bible?

But actually whats being missed is that he very clearly asks for consent in the line " Mind if I move in closer?" and her reply is " at least Im going to say that I tried."

now a woman in the world we currently live in should not have to make excuses for doing something she wants too do, or worry about what others think or the cost too her reputation. But they definitely did then.

Heym, can I ask you, was spiking a drink with drugs for sex a common thing when this song was written?

I know try had ruffies in the 59s and 60s. Common? His common is drug if people.

How common is getting some intoxicated alcohol or drugs to have sec with them?

The ding was being questioned before the 2010s.

If she says she wants to leave. You let her leave.

I realize can’t stay.
No she is asking to leave.

You guys can listen to it if you want and enjoy it. Or is on YouTube.

It is not how I was raised to act. It was both then nor now.

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:

quote:

Originally posted by shankspony:
she doesn't ask to leave . She says she should leave.

To be honest the argument is utterly ridiculous, Its a song from the 1940s, a good song and its pathetic that nowadays we as a society cant enjoy something while understanding the context of the time it was written.
Its says more about the pressures placed on women and the risks they faced in being human at that time.
Same situation with little house on the prairie. Or to kill a mockingbird, tom sawyer. We should not treat people how people are treated in those stories, yet it was applicable too the time, yet they are still good books, greatly written with fantastic stories. Should we be removing Tess of the D'urbervilles from our bookshelves? How about the Bible?

But actually whats being missed is that he very clearly asks for consent in the line " Mind if I move in closer?" and her reply is " at least Im going to say that I tried."

now a woman in the world we currently live in should not have to make excuses for doing something she wants too do, or worry about what others think or the cost too her reputation. But they definitely did then.

Heym, can I ask you, was spiking a drink with drugs for sex a common thing when this song was written?

I know try had ruffies in the 59s and 60s. Common? His common is drug if people.

How common is getting some intoxicated alcohol or drugs to have sec with them?

The ding was being questioned before the 2010s.

If she says she wants to leave. You let her leave.

I realize can’t stay.
No she is asking to leave.

You guys can listen to it if you want and enjoy it. Or is on YouTube.

It is not how I was raised to act. It was both then nor now.

Would you mind translating that?

I get your last two sentences. The rest is not very clear.

I don’t disagree that if the lady wants to go, she should. However, I don’t see rape. I don’t see her raising a serious objection that she wants to be left alone in what snippets are in the song.

The goofy part is, you were defending the rap song, and stating it shouldn’t be censored. Yet you seem to be justifying the folks who are demanding that others not play baby it’s cold outside, based on their interpretation of the lyrics.

Bill Cosby’s MO? Are you real? Where is that in the song?

If it was just someone did a remake with the woke lyrics and it was more popular than the original, I’d buy the kids don’t like the old one. As it is, it’s the hypersensitive leftist crowd who are advocating for a ban. If you don’t watch it, everything will be banned as everyone will have their own interpretation of everything.

I heard the new version and it just didn’t sound good to me- the new lyrics didn’t fit the melody to me and the new singers didn’t connect to me. I don’t want the new version banned, but I will do socially acceptable things to avoid listening to it- like change the channel.

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:
If she says she wants to leave. You let her leave.

I realize can’t stay.
No she is asking to leave.

LHeym,
Can you quote the line where she says that she wants to leave?

I have read it line by line. My interpretation that this is a "mating dance", and I base that on the fact that every one of her protests are based on her worry about what others will say/think if she stays, but she gives every indication that she does want to stay and would if it wasn't for societal norms that say that she "can't" stay.

Does this sound like a woman who is trying to get away from a rapist:
"This evening has been so very nice"
"I wish I knew how to break this spell"
"The welcome has been so nice and warm"

And what does she say right before se agrees to stay? "You've really been grand, but don't you see? There's bound to be talk tomorrow...."

That sounds like a woman who is worried about her reputation

But the real question is this: would anyone write a song about holding a woman against her will and drugging her with the intent to rape her?

Back to my original question/point: Is it "good" that we have "progressed" to the point that a handful of ninnys can have a classic song canceled due to the fact that their own narrow interpretation of the song leaves them offended? Is it "good" that "progress" allows a pornographic song, a song that would be offensive to far more people than Baby it's Cold Outside, to receive airplay and awards?

I say: no thanks, you can keep your "progress".

quote:

Back to my original question/point: Is it "good" that we have "progressed" to the point that a handful of ninnys can have a classic song canceled due to the fact that their own narrow interpretation of the song leaves them offended? Is it "good" that "progress" allows a pornographic song, a song that would be offensive to far more people than Baby it's Cold Outside, to receive airplay and awards?

No! It is not good, not in any way!

Wokester weirdos and their man buns be damned!

.

I think there were two possible original interpretations of the song. One is entirely innocent: that he's had a great time on the date and doesn't want it to end. And she doesn't want the night to end either, but is worried about her reputation.

The other interpretation is more risqué: that he wants in her panties, and she sort of wants it too, and the only thing stopping her is her concern about her reputation.

Even if the second interpretation is more likely, I don't see how rape comes into it. They're negotiating for possible sex, that's all. The man never forces her to do anything, he just asks. Have we really gone so far as to consider asking to be rape?

If that's rape, then I "raped" a few women when I was young. How else do you get laid, if you don't ask?

What we have come to, and have always been, when she ask to leave. You let her leave.

Spiked drinks that people do not know is spiked that your are trying to have sex with us not cool.

Look, the question was asked. Why is Baby, it is Cold Outside not cultural acceptable compared to WAP.

One, if the person wants to go on YouTube and lessen to Baby, they can.

Two, the song is problematic because she is asking to leave. He won’t let her go and spiked her drink. Listener can infer with what.

Remember the scenes in the film In Harm’s Way when Douglas’ character won’t let the woman go who came for a good time.

She is asking to leave. He is not listing to her, and spiked her drink.

Ask, but respect the answer. Do not pressure, do not spike drinks. I am sure everyone here has.

No, I would not want my son (childless( to grow up and act like the man in that song.

Also, that is kind of the point. How men have pressured women to have sex, used intoxicants, the “use of force standard” has created a power dynamic between men and women that needs to be rebalanced.

She says, “ I really can’t stay.” After multiple requests by the man for her to stay. The answer should be. Let me call you a cab, Uber, or I will get the car. Not a spiked drink.

You want to know the argument against the song. See above. WAP, in alternative, is consensual sec from the point of view of the woman using the power of sex for pleasure, get college paid for, and money.


Play both songs, for all I care. The free market, the market place of ideas will decide.

You're imposing modern interpretations on a 1940s song. Men weren't known for spiking ladies' drinks in those days. She's referring to the alcohol content of the drink.

In later times, I've heard people ask, "What's in this drink?" when the drink was stronger they expected.

I disagree. I think most fathers at all times would tell their sons: Call the cab, and do not spike a drink.

Let us assume I am. Another reason I do not want to go back to the 40s culturally.

Ask, take no thank you for an answer, and do not sneak intoxicants into their drink.

I agree men should never spike a drink, but I think that's an incorrect interpretation of the song.

That is fine.

In support of that interpretation the lyric:

“Hey, what is in this drink.”

Remember Bill Cosby. Spiking drinks and not letting women leave.

LHyem,
I would like to hear your thoughts on this:
(I am interested to see if you can find holes in my logic)

quote:

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:
If she says she wants to leave. You let her leave.

I realize can’t stay.
No she is asking to leave.

LHeym,
Can you quote the line where she says that she wants to leave?

I have read it line by line. My interpretation that this is a "mating dance", and I base that on the fact that every one of her protests are based on her worry about what others will say/think if she stays, but she gives every indication that she does want to stay and would if it wasn't for societal norms that say that she "can't" stay.

Does this sound like a woman who is trying to get away from a rapist:
"This evening has been so very nice"
"I wish I knew how to break this spell"
"The welcome has been so nice and warm"

And what does she say right before se agrees to stay? "You've really been grand, but don't you see? There's bound to be talk tomorrow...."

That sounds like a woman who is worried about her reputation

But the real question is this: would anyone write a song about holding a woman against her will and drugging her with the intent to rape her?

Back to my original question/point: Is it "good" that we have "progressed" to the point that a handful of ninnys can have a classic song canceled due to the fact that their own narrow interpretation of the song leaves them offended? Is it "good" that "progress" allows a pornographic song, a song that would be offensive to far more people than Baby it's Cold Outside, to receive airplay and awards?

I say: no thanks, you can keep your "progress".

This whole argument is nuts. Joshua is trying to assert intent to a song. These are fictitious lyrics not an actual event.

Does anyone actually believe Frank Loesser wrote a song about rape in the 1940’s?

Then further…this is a duet…requiring a female vocalist. Do we actually believe all the ladies who have sung this song over the last 8 decades were perpetuating a song about rape?

It’s a song fictitiously describing the interactions that commonly take place between young men and women in a playful way and a tactful way…nothing more. I would liken the song to an act in a Shakespeare play.

PS:

WAP is porn. Normal people “know that when they hear it.”

If you like it…fine…free country…just know it for what it is.

And…it is inappropriate (for all ages IMHO) for sub 18 year olds.

PSS:
Jason,
I am not insinuating your original point was nuts…I agree with you and your point is valid.

I am just saying the argument over suggesting “Baby it’s cold outside” is advocating rape is nuts.

Ruffes; I may be spelling it wrong. It is slang for drugs that men use to put in women’s drinks to get them intoxicated, so they could have sex with them. Those drugs have been around since 1950. It use to be portrayed in media. Most recently Family Guy. A character goes around given women Ruffy-Coladas.

You asked how common is it to drug women. How Colman is it to get women intoxicated with drugs and alcohol to take away their agency to say yes. I hope not very, but we know it is a practice that is long standing, potentially criminal.


The entire song is her asking to leave. This has really been swell

Baby do not hurt my pride-Man

I really Can’t Stay-She is asking to leave. He won’t let her go.

This song had been problematic and questioned long before the 2010s. It is not knew that woke made up.

Bill Cosby secluded women at residences. Would not let them leave. He spiked their drinks, then had sex with them against their will.

Proven civilly. Conviction overturned because a prior prosecutor promised not to use his civil deposition against him if he was honest.

Cosby testified in deposition. He would seclude women in residences. He would not listen when they asked to leave. He would drug them with spiked drinks. Then have sex with them.

The man in Baby will not take no for an answer. He had her secluded. He gives her a spiked drink.

In that same scenario in Baby it is cold outside, would you keep telling her to stay. Watch the original music video. He moved her away from the door. Then, give her a spiked drink she did not want.

If you answer yes. We have nothing to discuss.