So, your focus (scope) is on the division - left and right - shunning the other aspects of the war?

And mostly trying to justify the premise of leftist fascism?

Good luck with that.

Wow, Shanks, I posted the above before watching the video link in your post: https://youtu.be/wnl243DjsUE?si=iNoTekrn1-PbdCn2

I like Bill Maher's monologues.

I like his final comment in this one "So stop saying Western Civilization like it's a contradiction of terms - it's not - you're thinking of Moderate Republicans."

While leftists can certainly be totalitarian, it’s pretty unusual to find true leftists that are actually fascists in the sense of they are nationalists about the nation state as opposed to about oppressed people.

They are more properly termed communists.

I think the article is more about the authoritarian and totalitarian turn of the left than them actually becoming fascists (which is more nationalist totalitarianism than anything else.)

Classical liberalism is more about individualism and protecting the rights of individuals rather than groups.

We really don’t have them anymore. The closest in the US are the libertarians and they really don’t quite fit that.

Totalitarian is a comfortable fit. Its concerning no matter what name it gos by.
The same group of Green MPs were involved in violently shutting down a let women speak event over here a while back when they could not get the speaker stopped via the legal process.
I saw a comment yesterday that sums up the attitude and what we potentially face.
" NZ has been peaceful for 42 years, the average is 30. At least it was an improvement."

Interestingly classical liberalism is on the rise here. The ACT party will make up part of the new Govt.
We are going to go through some interesting times. We have a founding treaty with Maori, its a very simple document and should be very workable. However over the last 20 years the meaning of the words has been adjusted and amplified into every aspect of day to day life. One of the ACT party policies is a referendum on what NZers want in that regard, the new interpretations, called principles, or to go back to the original wording of the roughly 3 paragraph treaty.
The left is stating that if a referendum happens, and to be clear not even a result they dont like, but just letting NZers make a decision themselves on how we interpret the words. Then they warn us there will be violence like we have not seen.

ME, your contribution to this thread has been to avoid/deny and try shut down its true nature. Its fitting you focus on the joke at the end of his monologue.
I know you dont like to face or focus or admit the issues the left contribute too the problems of society.
I can only repeat myself again. Its not at all about the war. Its about how the reaction too the war among/and other events, is being reacted too by western society, and in this case one sector of society in particular.
This fascism is roughly being mirrored by a rise in classical libertarianism. With the potential and actual violence coming from the left when its not getting its way.
Is that what you hope to see from the left?

quote:

With the potential and actual violence coming from the left when its not getting its way.

This is what we are seeing here in the US more and more!

.

quote:

Originally posted by shankspony:

ME, your contribution to this thread has been to avoid/deny and try shut down its true nature. Its fitting you focus on the joke at the end of his monologue.

This fascism is roughly being mirrored by a rise in classical libertarianism. With the potential and actual violence coming from the left when its not getting its way.

Is that what you hope to see from the left?

What I hope to see from the left is that the vision of progressivism has enough appeal, merit, vs the rightist's regressivism, to carry the direction of this country and NZ, into a better world. We are certainly NOT going to see that from the Right.

We have already seen a sample of what the Right will do, not getting their way.

Here's a definition of progressivism in case you don't already know:

Progressivism holds that it is possible to improve human societies through political reform. As a political movement, progressivism seeks to advance the human condition through social reform based on purported advancements in science, technology, economic development, and social organization. Adherents hold that progressivism has universal application and endeavor to spread this idea to human societies everywhere. Progressivism arose during the Age of Enlightenment out of the belief that civility in Europe was improving due to the application of new empirical knowledge to the governance of society.

BTW, Maher's final comment was no more of a joke than the entire monologue. The whole thing was a reality check, ironically. That's his format.

Big call. Can you show me where the right in NZ lacks in a meaningful way, in progressivism in NZ? Or are you simply projecting your opinions of the right onto any countrys right?

It took a while and some prodding for you to get there. Its clear you can't acknowledge fault from the left or wish to discuss the concerns many see from that sector.

quote:

Originally posted by JTEX:

quote:

With the potential and actual violence coming from the left when its not getting its way.

This is what we are seeing here in the US more and more!

.

Evidently, JTEX, Violence from the left is progressivism. Something the right needs to learn from.

quote:

Originally posted by shankspony:
Big call. Can you show me where the right in NZ lacks in a meaningful way, in progressivism in NZ? Or are you simply projecting your opinions of the right onto any countrys right?

It took a while and some prodding for you to get there. Its clear you can't acknowledge fault from the left or wish to discuss the concerns many see from that sector.

Any country's Right have many beliefs and ideas in common.

Most of my opinions about the right are based in evidence and facts. Some are blatantly obvious.

If you or anyone can show me faults of the left that are real, growing, or imminent, I'll consider your POV. You yourself said this supposed problem is a minority. One big fault of the Right is they make up a lot of BS, lies, about the Left and do a lot of projection. It's always a cry wolf thing with them.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news...cid=socialshare&ei=6

"Apocalypticism": Polling expert reveals the root of "panic among conservative White Christians"

Apparently progressivism isn’t “winning” on its merits, so its adherents are becoming more militant.

It’s pretty obvious around here that both sides are convinced of their absolute rectitude.

quote:

rectitude:

morally correct behavior or thinking; righteousness

I can't speak for the Left, but IMO, I'm sure that's what Rightists think of themselves and I'm sure they are wrong.

To say that is equally so about the left, rectitude as a fault, is probably a projection.

This whole conversation/premise about the Left and Fascism is just a serious distraction from what's really happening right in front of us, in plain sight.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news...f95716a7da1f06&ei=12

Trump Mulling Deploying Military to Streets on Day 1 if Elected: Report
Story by AJ McDougall • 13h

https://www.washingtonpost.com...revenge-second-term/

Trump and allies plot revenge, Justice Department control in a second term
Advisers have also discussed deploying the military to quell potential unrest on Inauguration Day. Critics have called the ideas under consideration dangerous and unconstitutional.
By Isaac Arnsdorf, Josh Dawsey and Devlin Barrett
Updated November 5, 2023 at 11:06 p.m. EST|Published November 5, 2023 at 6:00 a.m. EST

quote:

Originally posted by Magine Enigam:

quote:

Originally posted by shankspony:
Big call. Can you show me where the right in NZ lacks in a meaningful way, in progressivism in NZ? Or are you simply projecting your opinions of the right onto any countrys right?

It took a while and some prodding for you to get there. Its clear you can't acknowledge fault from the left or wish to discuss the concerns many see from that sector.

Any country's Right have many beliefs and ideas in common.

Most of my opinions about the right are based in evidence and facts. Some are blatantly obvious.

If you or anyone can show me faults of the left that are real, growing, or imminent, I'll consider your POV. You yourself said this supposed problem is a minority. One big fault of the Right is they make up a lot of BS, lies, about the Left and do a lot of projection. It's always a cry wolf thing with them.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news...cid=socialshare&ei=6

"Apocalypticism": Polling expert reveals the root of "panic among conservative White Christians"

Ok, so you cant then and fall back on the right is the same everywhere.
Also I have not presented a single made up thing from the right. I have presented concerns from proven left wing commentators.
Your whole thesis in regard to this topic is worthless.
To you the left is perfect then? no ability to discuss concerns.. Its about now that you do what many others not he left have done and come up with something like, Bill Mahers not a true lefty.

Have you ever wondered about Maher's comment that moderate republican is a contradiction of terms, IOW an oxymoron?

The far right made up the term RINO, so moderate republicans are not really republicans.

Why is it that the term DINO hasn't got the same steam?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democrat_in_Name_Only

Maybe the left doesn't have so many extremists after all, in comparison!!!

Ill take that as a validation that the previous post was too difficult for you to refute.

As too your question. Try harder- heres the most common terms the left uses for the centre left.

Neoliberal, Reactionary centrist, TERF

Don’t forget “science denier”

quote:

Ill take that as a validation that the previous post was too difficult for you to refute.

No, you haven't won this argument.

It's not validation when I choose to not respond to nonsense, which you resorted to in the aforementioned post, lacking anything substantial.

Because anything coming from the right is nonsense aye? Especially when that nonsense from the right is the presentation of concerns of those on the left.

If they are republicans in name, then they are republicans. Yes, some republicans get upset that so many refuse to toe the party line, and members of the conservative press may label them… but they still are members of the party.

Contrast that to the democrats. When is the last time you heard of a pro life democrat?

The democrats are much more monolithic with regards to toeing the line with party positions.

That wasn’t always the case as shown by the old Rogers quote.

quote:

Originally posted by Magine Enigam:
Have you ever wondered about Maher's comment that moderate republican is a contradiction of terms, IOW an oxymoron?

The far right made up the term RINO, so moderate republicans are not really republicans.

Why is it that the term DINO hasn't got the same steam?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democrat_in_Name_Only

Maybe the left doesn't have so many extremists after all, in comparison!!!

quote:

If they are republicans in name, (only) then they are republicans

I agree.

How about RILO - republican in lame only?

RINOs are lame because they can't unite the party - those who call them RINOs are in control. You can't develop a party platform or get rid of or control Trump or the Christofascists or nationalists or anarchists/insurrectionists or accelerationists, etc. Heck, you welcome them and the rest of the far right. You wouldn't even have a party if not for them, so I understand. Heck, your party can't even govern.

You can criticize the left and look for flaws all you want. I'm not against that, if what you find is not just another Rightist embellished boogie. Sort out what's real from that is challenge enough.

Meanwhile, it was not the left that put the country in the Trump crisis.

Ironically, it's the rule of law that has Trump in trouble - you remember, that idea and principle that republicans used to stand for. Ironically, and indirectly, it is the left's fault that this is happening. If the republicans had their way, Trump would not have been indicted at all for anything. In fact, he would have been rewarded by Repugs. In fact, that's what they will do if Trump defeats the founding principles, and they will help him do that any way they can.

This is all yours - RINOs, RILOs, repugs in fact, etc.

YOU let this monkey out of pandora's box. Now you can't put him back or control him. His destiny is yours and maybe the Nations too.

This is what you wanted, and many still want this.

This what one would call an existential threat. All concerns about the left are BS in comparison.

https://www.cnn.com/2023/11/07...0you%20can.%E2%80%9D

Updated 6:51 AM EST, Tue November 7, 2023

(excerpts)

The judge in Donald Trump’s civil fraud trial despairingly pressed the ex-president’s lawyer: “I beseech you to control him if you can.”

And the answer, as always, was no, Trump cannot be controlled.

No mere lawyer could impose the kind of discipline that two-and-a-half centuries of constitutional checks and balances could not provide during Trump’s time in office or since. And after threatening to dismiss the ex-president from the witness stand, Engoron opted to let the Trump storm rage in the apparent hope that it would blow itself out — though history has shown it never does.

Trump’s combative defense against claims he inflated his wealth to rip off banks, insurance firms and New York state, served as a troubling preview of a 2024 election season that is likely to become ensnared with his massive legal peril. But it also revealed insights into Trump’s relentless refusal to give an inch to his enemies and showed why voters who despise East Coast authority figures and liberal societal codes adore him.

His testimony offered warnings to lawyers who will seek to puncture his self-created bubble of alternative realities with facts and evidence — and showed how he might try to charm and confuse jurors in his coming criminal trials.

As he climbed into the witness box and lifted his hand and swore to tell the truth — an almost ironic act given his record of falsehoods — Trump obliterated yet another convention. Ex-presidents in America don’t typically get called to explain their actions in court. And Monday’s four-hour dive into the Trump Organization’s financial records was just a warm up for subsequent criminal courtroom dramas that could mean the Republican Party will nominate a convicted felon for president. Trump denies wrongdoing in each and every case against him.

Thats kind of rich given that the democrats cant even choose a candidate who will beat them.
And not fielding a candidate who can beat trump does not provide alot of confidence in the coherency or ability of the dems.

A Dilo is only one letter away from being a pretend cock. Something that looks functional but cant do the job.

Im still waiting for you to prove your assertions re NZs right. And it is kind of important. Because if you cant, My assertion that everything you say in this thread is an attempt to move talk away from and just destroy the thread is true.

quote:

A Dilo is only one letter away from being a pretend cock. Something that looks functional but cant do the job.

It looks like your blessing is that you don't have a Trump clone/clown.

NZ Politics is complicated:

https://youtu.be/I8YPh7DIOHs?si=dsc30ZlVMRA4a4Cf

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/1....html?smid=url-share

https://ctc.westpoint.edu/in-t...s-extreme-far-right/

https://www.google.com/search?...sclient=gws-wiz-serp

The real threat of fascism in the U.S...

Link

To answer you both at once, no we dont have anyone like Trump and never have had.
Trump is by far the biggest concern, I agree. That should not mean we can not talk about other concerns and have them cut off every single time by Trump.
The other question I have asked is, why cant the left choose a leader who will defeat trump? Surely thats a valid concern as well?

ME, If a MP from the just defeated Govt, who is still running the country in a caretaker role until the new Govt is formed, comes out publicly and says that if the new govt does what its been elected to do, there will be war and violence like we have not seen.
Is that progressivism? Is that acceptable language?

quote:

My assertion that everything you say in this thread is an attempt to move talk away from and just destroy the thread is true.

That's not true.

Talk all you want about NZ politics. Feel free.

Any time one brings up the subject of fascism, to me it's the USA I'm concerned about. Any parallels with NZ are interesting, but not urgent to me.

I think the comparisons between the two countries are interesting.

You ought to know - does NZ have anything comparable, well developed and funded, to Project 2025 ? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/..._2025#External_links

quote:

ME, If a MP from the just defeated Govt, who is still running the country in a caretaker role until the new Govt is formed, comes out publicly and says that if the new govt does what its been elected to do, there will be war and violence like we have not seen.
Is that progressivism? Is that acceptable language?

Our posts crossed in cyberspace.

No, I don't think that's progressivism. And IMO it's not acceptable language.

From what little I've read about NZ, politics are upside down there.

It seems that some of the radicals are deemed leftists, by themselves or others, or both. It seems to me like their goals and rhetoric is like the far right here.

To an extent yeah. For some reason we do not accept the same level of rhetoric from the right here, as we do the left.
hell to get elected our new Prime minister who is a christian conservative, had to come out and explicitly state he will not touch abortion laws. He'd never indicated that he would to start with, as far as Im aware.

It seems to me that no matter what country, the extremes at either end are always trying to seize control in an unhealthy manor, and its up to those in the middle to prevent that happening.
So why is it looking so likely that the democrats could fail to prevent that scenario? Surely there is enough self awareness to work out that this next election is the most important in a long time and that fielding Joe and Kamala again is taking one hell of a risk? That as Bill Maher is constantly saying, its time to push aside the fringe and contentious issues and concentrate on the centre and winning?

quote:

Originally posted by shankspony:
It seems to me that no matter what country, the extremes at either end are always trying to seize control in an unhealthy manor, and its up to those in the middle to prevent that happening.

That as Bill Maher is constantly saying, its time to push aside the fringe and contentious issues and concentrate on the centre and winning?

That makes sense to me, in theory, but in this country what used to be the "fringe" on the Right has become the majority of the party. They think it's a winning strategy. Trump gives them hope. Even the RINOs and RILOs and especially the hard Right think that. And they may be right -- pun intended.

The centre is no longer relevant.

It could happen in NZ.

How is the Left supposed to react to that reality? Do they allow themselves to become reciprocally radical? It's obvious that you can't play nice with the Right nowadays. Compromise like it used to be for the sake of just plain governance is not on the table, per the Right.

Sorry man, I have to shake my head at that thought process. The worst thing you can do is become more radical, thats why the dems are struggling at the moment, in what should be a slam dunk. Thats what our left did and thats why they have now lost.
The dems have to move back too the centre and take a little bit of ground off the middle right. Not double down.
Either way there is a bitter pill to swallow. Its just what does the least long term harm, and Id say preventing trump from having a second chance should be paramount.

The centre is always relevant. if you think its not then you have lost all ready.

quote:

The centre is always relevant. if you think its not then you have lost all ready reality .

I agree. We are saying the same thing, just differently. The Center is always relevant as a goal post, or bar, or std. or home base.

If we didn't have a firm grip of what the Center is, in reality, then how would we know that the Right (or Left) has gone astray?

When we have a political party, especially the GOP nowadays, which vigorously and purposely shuns the Center in all aspects, especially within their own party, then that has to influence the reaction of the opposing party.

For the most part, it seems to me that the democrats, the party, has stayed a lot more center than the Right, in the USA. IOW, the left here has NOT embraced fascism or extreme authoritarianism as a solution or path. The Right has, the same as it has done throughout history, from time to time. It's their northern star. It's like a bug attracted to a light for them.

Then the population has shifted right and the only reason for that is the dems are not offering them what they need.

I mean lets be clear, the GOP looks very dysfunctional. If this was NZ it would be a cakewalk, as it was in 2020 when the right here for other reasons had an implosion and lack of leadership.

But as dysfunctional as the GOP seems to be, it looks like they can still sense they are close too gaining a whole lot more power that once gained, will be hard to take away.

So whos lost all reality?

I don’t necessarily think the GOP, as a party, is dysfunctional.

Right now, the coalition of religious conservatives, isolationists, and folks who are adherents of a cult of personality (Trump) are the majority of the party leadership. Like any organization, that will change over time.

The left is every bit as much in that situation, but it’s extremists are able to be ignored easier as “that doesn’t affect me.”

The abortion issue is not popular for the GOP.

The extremist intervention with climate and gender issues are not popular for the left.

It’s just more people feel the right’s extremists are likely to affect them than the left’s, which I feel is more the media than anything else.

Unfortunately, neither sides moderates are willing to work together to marginalize both sides fringes… because the fringes are the activists, which are the source of volunteers, grass roots activities, and, most tellingly, money.

Pretty much spot on.