Potsy, For the Bone jackets I ordered 300 in 1.030"length and another 300 in 1.150". I've been using them for making up heavy (180 to 190)flat nosed bullets for the .30/30. If you're going to put a 6S or 8S ogive on them they need to be annealed or the nose will split. The walls run about 0.012"thick.

I've got some 0.040" cups on order from Butch for .308" and .375". And, you don't get to pick the flower, the Jaegermeister does. I think the 0.040" cups would give a little better penetration than the 0.030" ones. The thinner ones would work better in my .30/06. Although 6 one shot kills with the 0.030" jacketed bullets is hard to fault.

When I first planned my bullet design, I thought that they'd likely stay inside a whitetail - even with the .030 jacket. However, I've shot four whitetails with them in 200 and 220 grain, and haven't recovered a bullet yet (none were particularly big, the biggest going about 230 live weight). I felt I would need to bond my cores or adjust the internal composition of my bullet to get exit wounds, but I'm now reserving that for my moose bullets. I really don't think that I'll need jackets thicker than the .030's, but then again, you never know.

The jacket's i use on Deer in .458 and in .308 are 0.0150
walls Elk are about the same i dropped one elk with 0.0300
walls and the bullet was in the other shoulder and was about 85% all there...
Now cat's i have been using 0.0150 becouse i want that bullet to come unglued i dont want kitty in my face.!!
The more that bullet come's apart the better..
I ant eating the cat's...And i don't want kitty eating me.!
I how ever am going to try some of butch's 0.0300 walls in .366 on them in a 270 grain ...I have my dought's
But for longer range shot's i will give it a try ...

Rick,
What cartridge are you using the 0.030" jackets in?

Jungli:



I'm using them in the .35 Remington, .358 Winchester, and .35 Whelen. So far, however, I've only had success when carrying the .358. My 200's were coming out the spout at about 2465 fps, while I'm getting about 2340 with the 220's. I hope to pop a moose this year (same hope every year), and if I do it will be with the bonded version going at about 2640fps out of my Whelen.



Rick

Rick,
I used Butch's 0.030" cups for some 220 grain bonded core bullets in my .300 Win. Mag. to take 5 antelope and a warthog in Namibia this year. They worked pretty well, but only one made exit. The MV was 2660 fps and the wound channels went from one side to the skin on the off side. The biggest animals were the two kudus at about 650 lbs each. Even though your MV may be lower, you might not get complete penetration on moose.

Jungli:

To tell you the truth, I've never seen the value in exit wounds as such. Originally, when bullet design and materials development was outstripped by cartridge and powder advances, the old time African hunters used fmj bullets which later evolved into solids. An exit wound was an indicator that a bullet would stay together rather than blow-up on entry as some early HV bullets would. This has been taken care of by modern bullet making methods, structures and materials.

To me the bullet must stay together long enough to reach the internal organs on almost any reasonable hit on the game you're hunting, but there is where the "penetration factor" ends.

At this point a bullet should expand and (sacrilege ) break up in order to damage the internal organs causing rapid blood loss and loss of function to kill the animal. Internal damage is done by the bullet, its fragments, and pieces of bone, cartilage and flesh accelerated by the bullet.

It's also a benefit for the bullet to do (at least) a degree of expansion/shock at the instant of entry to possibly put the animal down quickly.

Once these jobs are done, whether the bullet exits or not is a non-factor. Exit wounds do bleed more than entry wounds (but not nearly as much as internal organ damage), so better blood trails are left by exiting bullets (if the bullet has failed to put the animal down right away).

You may have noticed that I didn't mention energy or the famous "energy dump" theory. I don't believe (as some high velocity proponents seem to) that energy is some kind of separate thing that is carried to the animal by the bullet, but then causes damage that is virtually independent of that done by the bullet itself. I don't believe in a shock wave of pure energy moving through the animal with destructive force.

There is a "cone of destruction" that occurs along the path of the bullet, but this is the route that the expanded bullet, shrapnel and bits and pieces of animal (secondary and tertiary projectiles) take in causing the death of the animal. Bruising that is often attributed to energy is actually caused by the accelerated fluids inside the animal.

This is why the Nosler Partition gained its reputation as a game getter by both expanding/breaking up, and staying together for penetration. However, I've never witnessed any remarkable results from partitions, and I think this is partly because the penetration phase occurs after the shock/break-up.

To me, a good bonded core bullet (with some expansion retardant features) makes the perfect hunting bullet, and is much better in a wide variety of circumstances than many of the new solid copper bullets.


As to the performance of my bullets on moose, even though I have an expanding (pneumatic) tip on my bullet, I can limit the degree of expansion with the level to which I allow the lead to rise in my jackets, and then I also have the additional expansion retardant features of my bullets (ie the remnant tip, and the minor core that also holds this tip in place) to allow greater penetration.

The design that I used as the starting point for mine was the CPE manufactured here in Canada by Imperial/Dominion between the 1930's and 1970's. This bullet had what would now be described as a ULD profile, but had a standard jacket and core without the bonding or minor core that I've included. I once recovered one of these from the opposite shoulder of a bull moose that still weighed almost 70% of the starting 180 grain weight.

That's the theory anyway. The proof will be in the results I get when I'm able to connect with my next moose.

Rick

Rick,
I agree with everything you said. I'm going to try a heavier jacket to enhance penetration at higher velocities. The load I used in Africa had a MV of 2660 fps. In a .300 magnum some what higher velocities are possible. I based my bullet design on the old Western Open Point Expanding (OPE). It was a favorite of Townsend Whelan, Frank Golata, and others during the 30's and 40's. I felt the design could be improved by bonding the cores. So my 220 grain bullets have an open point, bonded core and a 6S ogive. They penetrated to the off side in every case, only in one of the kudu's did the bullet make exit. The enternal damage was tremendous, on a cow oryx the entrance hole bled enough to make an easy trail to follow as the internal hemorraging was so great that the hole couldn't close. The PH thought the bullets were not effective enough as they didn't exit, later he felt they would be good for eland. So I figured there was enough penetration after all.
John

John:

Sounds like you got great performance to me. Without the little do-dads I have in the centre of my bullet, I might opt for something like an extra heavy jacket to retard expansion as well.

The name "CPE" for the bullets I used as my pattern stood for "Copper Point Expanding". It seems that you and I come to swaging from similar places.

Rick

Rick,
Not only did I want to work with the OPE design, but another reason I started swaging is to make a bullet similar to the Peter's Outer Belted. It was discontinued in 1937. I'm not sure what kind of tooling would be necessary, but at some point I'll talk to Richard Corbin about it.
John

I thought you gentlemen might find this picture interesting.



As usual, the worst ones are those comlicated German made ones

Saeed do you do any swaging ...
Are any of those your's ?

Do you do any tooling of Die's


Pottsy

Martin,

Yes sir we did a few years ago.
We have a Corbin hydrolic press.

None of the ones in the photo above are made by us.

I started making bullets on our lathe when we could not get any for our 577 T.Rex, 600 and 700 NE.

I found it was not an easy task at the rate the boys shoot them here.

So we got ourselves a small CNC lathe, which was meant for schools.

It worked to a certain extent, but was very difficult to make relatively accurate bullets.

We have ordered a good quality turning center, which should be here by the end of next month.

It should be interesting to play with it.

Saeed:

Can you give me any particulars about the bullet thats 4th from the left on the bottom row?

It's very similar to mine in that it has an embedded hollow tip. My tip is "pointier", with a narrower distance between the sides of the embedded portion. I also have a thicker main jacket, and my lead doesn't always rise to the top of the main jacket.

Rick

John:

About three years ago Ross Seyfreid mentioned the Peters Belted bullet in a column. I looked it up in our Canadian Patents data base, and found myself intrigued by the method of manufacture as well. The patent data base showed only drawings, but had no details on manufacturing process.

I assumed that to make these you'd have to initially swage a dual diameter bullet with a shoulder where you want the bottom of the belt to seat, and then run the bullet with the belt in place into another point forming die to lock everything in place and give it its final diameter.

At the time I was more interested in another Canadian design I'd found in the database. It was a bullet my father had used in his youth, and swore by. He used it as a 115 grain offering in his .30 Remington. He told me a great number of stories of this bullet doing tremendous damage to a deer and usually (if not always) exiting.

It was a FMJ design with a concave "dimple" in the tip, but it had a large open area backed by a lead core in a "V" configuration behind the tip. Apparently it expanded rapidly, but retained its integrity at the same time.

I found drawings showing the initial construction of the bullet, and a conceptual design of how it would end up (a perfect "inverted" (or concave) mushroom about twice its original diameter). However, for the life of me, I couldn't figure out how to make it (by swaging).

Rick

I think this one is an RWS H Mantle.


Martin,

The Corbin press we have is the original hyrolic one, I am not sure what he might call it now.

Saeed i was just wondering is all if it was made in or around the 80's it's when richard corbin and dave corbin were still together...
If it's the original one it's a Richard Corbin Design
made and sold by The Corbin Company..
It's before the brake up..It's a good hydro Press
Not one thing wrong with it that i know of ..
Do you drill all your jacket's from stock Or have you bought a Jacket making press Like Butch's at GE--harrell.hairfield
He's about the only person that make's and sell's .
Soft jacket's In any Diam i have gotten .458's and .510's
Thay are flawless . harrell.hairfield@ps.ge.com

Be well Saeed

We used copper tubing for jackets, which worked fine for our purpose.

We have also used Corbin own jackets, and they were good too.

No sir I did not.

It was set up by my younger brother.

Jungli Bains

Have you tried rolling the wall's down yet..

using the oversize external punch /top punch
if a .254 fit's i run a .275 if that does not roll enough down over id i set up a size .285 or .290
but you can't do it in one shot or should i say i can't the wall's will fold rather then roll

It work's out on the .458 jacket's that are running heaver
wall's 0.050 there's lot's of wall to roll over the core to partion it...The only thing is well for me that is i have to thread the top half and bond it or i lose the top core's
you still wind up with a fair partioned bullet..
You can always leave a small hole in the partion and then
seat the top half then bond it .that let's the two core's
bond to each other and it keep's the top core from coming away from the jacket without having to thread the top half
The easy way it to make a wood jig for a bench vic to hold the jacket's so you don't damage the jacket when your tring to hold it during threading just buy a bottoming tap..


Waidmannsheil, aus der alte grosswildjaeger,

Pottsy:



I've never really liked the philosophy behind the partition bullet, but I've toyed with the idea of putting something like a gas check in the middle of a bullet, swaging the final shape, and then testing it for expansion characteristics.



I believe it would act something like my design in that it wouldn't completely terminate expansion, but retard it long enough to get sufficient penetration.



So many ideas - so little time.



Rick

I sent you the picture's of Butch's truck loaded down with all the tooling he pick up ......



What a full.!! load

the big gray thing chianed to the front is the press Richard sold Butch ...



As for Partioning bullet's well thay have there good point's( no pune intended ) and bad point's .



In the .510 Daim i have yet to see any reason to do this as the speed's are never fast enough to justfy partioning them



The .458 Diam bullet's on low weight /grain do offer some

improvment's but not much 400 grain 350 grain partion's

And only when use at higher vel/ over 2500 ..



The .375 and the .366 fall in the same catagory

lower weight's 225 to 250 grain bullet's becouse of the

higher vel/s



the .358 .338 .308 Etc find there mark in bullet's ranging from 150 to 180 and in some case's 200



There's nothing here that you don't already know Rick..



As you already know it ( partioning ) is really done to stop the lose of lead in design's that don't hold up well

at higher speed. Flat nose .458 of lighter weight's

Is a good example ...



The reason i brought it up was becouse another person on the board was and is getting swage die's for the .458 Diam

now the rifle he plain's to use is on the low side for Vel with almost any bullet weight. the hope here was to use

thin wall's of around 1.000 for 350 grain's and roll the inside wall's down just a smiggen so that some of the inter wall would cover the core and still have wall left to act as a shield /jacket it was just a diffrent idea trying to get a diffrent effect from the same bullet and jacket

by changing the inside of the jacket wall



Pottsy