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| One of Us |
Recovered from what ? | |||
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Sand backstop. These were shot into targets for accuracy, and we use sand bags for bullet stop. | |||
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Someone went to a lot of trouble arranging that picture. Nice lead recovery. Never mistake motion for action. | |||
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Copper and some brass exactly  | |||
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Well for shooting sand I highly recommend them. I love the smell of napalm in the morning | |||
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Saeed, Are the mushroomed ones towards the bottom your TSX like bullet and the others towards the top your solids? Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.  What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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Mike, All these are our own Walterhog designs. Most are hollow points, but some are solids. I did not arrange them in any sort of order, except have the brass on top and the copper bellow. I also tried to put the bigger ones first. The thing is we hear so much about testing bullets in all sorts of different media. We did here too. Tried all sorts to see the penetration and expansion. It just surprised me when I saw these bullets how similar they actually looked like those we have recovered from animals while hunting. Here we have bullets that have not expanded at all, just bent like bananas. We have bullets that have lost parts of them, and we have bullets that have expanded in varying degrees. EXACTLY like the bullets we have recovered from various game animals. What I have learnt, from all my hunting experience, and shooting here, is very simple. Regardless of any advertising claims, bullets can be put in the following categories. 1. Normal soft points will break up at any reasonable velocity. 2. Partition bullets like Noslers and A-Frames are much better. They will retain more weight, but have a tendency of loosing the rear section. 3. Bullets with a solid shank - like the Trophy Bonded Bear Claws and the Jensens. These are much better than the partitions in holding together. 4. Hollow point copper bullets, regardless of make, are much better than anything else. These are my favorite hunting bullets. | |||
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Thanks Saeed Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue. What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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Saeed, I have only the smallest fraction of your experience but agree that all-copper bullets perform very well. There is hope, even when your brain tells you there isn’t. – John Green, author | |||
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Maybe I slept through the answer, but. are any of these "lead bullets"? Don't limit your challenges . . . Challenge your limits | |||
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Nice; but sand is not meat; you should test them in meat. And some bones. And lungs. | |||
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Well, I have hundreds of recovered bullets from all sorts of animals. The surprising thing is they look exactly the same as these from sand!! I did not expect to see this. But, here it is. Just been running my CNC lathe making 375 caliber bullets. The copper stock we got is more dense. My bullets are coming out at 307 grains. Not a problem though. I need to load some for our hunt next month. | |||
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You have a lot more recovered bullets than I do…  Karl Evans | |||
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Saeed, please report on how the denser copper performs on game. I would expect to see a very slight difference in recovered bullets. There is hope, even when your brain tells you there isn’t. – John Green, author | |||
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That data would be nice to see. I've had good luck with the "poor man's penetration scale" I.E. wet phone books + it works. But I have used mine primarily for cast bullets. Never mistake motion for action. | |||
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Bill, I don't understand what you mean. Do you mean brass? If so, I have not hunted with brass bullets. I actually found copper bullets shoot more accurately than brass, in the few times we tried them side by side. No idea why. Brass is of course a different weight, and in our tests I tried the same bullet, and we seem to always have the copper shoot better. I have tried brass solids on several game animals, always worked, and passed through. Sometimes we have recovered them. Some were intact, others were bent. Penetration was no better than Barnes X in buffalo, from the same rifle, same caliber, and same velocity. | |||
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SAEED, I HAVE USED BRASS BULLETS AND FOUND THEM TO BE TOUGHER THAN COPPER BULLETS. The Punch bullet is brass with a lead filled base and they PUNCH through most any game. When prepping for a bullet testing Safari, we hung a 5/8 inch thick steel plate and tried all the bullets on it from 50 yards. In a nutshell, the 450 grain Punch shot through it leaving a clean round hole! The 450 grain North Fork flat point solid nearly made it by tearing a ragged hole in the plate. None of the other bullets came close to passing this test. The jacketed copper bullets splatted flat and dropped to the ground and my daughter used them to make teenage jewelry. Those two solid bullets, Punch and North Fork, were both successful shooting through an ele head on frontal brain shots; they passed through the head and into the body and had to be cut out of the body. BTW, the 450 grain Kodiak bonded bullet was the best on Cape Buffalo, killing all and shooting through most. They also shoot through Bison shoulder here in Texas. From my 1886 at 2150 fps mv, not recovered. Those were the best of about 20 types of bullets. NRA Life Benefactor Member, DRSS, DWWC, Whittington Center,Android Reloading Ballistics App at http://www.xplat.net/ | |||
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Saeed, I simply meant that I would expect denser copper to be a bit more resistant to expansion than the less dense copper. But perhaps more penetration is wanted? I always thought the combination of complete penetration with optimum expansion was the gold standard. There is hope, even when your brain tells you there isn’t. – John Green, author | |||
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Bill, brass is harder then copper. In my trials on animals, no brass bullet penetrated further than the copper ones. Problem is you really need to shoot literally hundreds of animals before you can make any assumptions. Even then you will get a bullet which will throw everything you have learned out of the window. I did try what was supposed to be bullet copper. In our penetration tests it made no difference. So I just continued to use normal 100% copper. And the results have been great. Tried making aluminum bullets, and ran into problems the bullets are tear as the cutter cuts them. Then I found there are many different types of aluminum, and tried what a friend suggested, and everything came out fine. I have not any chance to try these yet. We seem to have about a dozen things going at any given time!! One day I will. | |||
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