OK Accurate Reloaders, do me a favor please, here's a test for you, word for word straight from the 2nd grade workbook. Look at it, interpret it literally, and give me an answer.

3. Brad has groups of 10 pennies. He counts the groups. Brad counts 40 but has 6 more stacks to count. How many pennies does he have in all?

Just curious. Thanks.

40 groups of 10 pennies + 6 groups of 10 pennies = 46 groups of 10 pennies = 460 pennies

But it is written poorly. Is it groups plus groups?

Brad has groups of 10 pennies.
He counts the groups.
Brad counts 40 (groups of 10) but has 6 more stacks (groups of 10) to count.
How many pennies does he have in all?

Or is it pennies plus groups? In which case the total would be 100 pennies, i.e. 40 pennies + 6 groups of 10 pennies = 100 pennies.

Brad has groups of 10 pennies.
He counts the groups.
Brad counts 40 (pennies) but has 6 more stacks (groups of 10 pennies) to count.
How many pennies does he have in all?

And, using stacks instead of groups makes it more confusing.
It is a good example of why you should always identify your units in math.



I would tell the teacher that if problem #3 makes sense then this problem makes just as much sense:

Brad has fifths of whiskey.
He drinks the whiskey.
Brad drinks 40 fifths but still has 6 more fifths to drink.
How many bottles of whiskey did he have in all?
Answer: 10 bottles.
Because 40/5 + 6/5 = 46/5 which is the same as 9-1/5.
9 bottles + 1 fifth more = 10 bottles of whiskey.

Brad lost count long before he finished......

The IRS learned of Brad's pennies, confiscated 60% and levied fines and interest 60% of the remainder.
What did Brad have left?

Jim

Not enough information to solve the problem.

Thanks guys, of course my 7 yr-old daughter had this problem from a standardized workbook. She came up with 460 pennies. When I reviewed her homework with her I agreed. A poorly written question to be sure, but I don't see how you can come up with anything but 460. At school her teacher marked it wrong, she said the answer is 100. To arrive at an answer of 100 you have to assume something that is not stated in the problem. My daughter tried to explain to her how she came up with 460. All the teacher did was flip to the back of her textbook to the answer key, and said no, see your answer doesn't match this one so it's wrong. That disappoints me and pisses me off at the same time. I'm just enough of an asshole to call her on it, wrote her a note, will be interesting to see what she says.
Arkypete probably has the most realistic take on it, but I think I will let my little girl enjoy her childhood as long as she can before having to confront the real world.

As I read it, he doesn't count the individual pennies but rather the "groups". Except for the final question, the entire problem refers to "groups".

Your daughter was right. 40 groups of 10 gives 400 pennies, and 6 groups of ten = 60 pennies. 400 +60 seems to equal 460 pennies in my math.

The question was NOT about how many groups there are. Instead it specifically asks how many pennies Brad has. ("How many pennies does he have in all?")


The correct answer is 460. Screw the teacher and the text book writer, editor, publisher, et al, ad infinitum.

No wonder our children (and schools)are "dumbing down". In many instances they are being taught by buffoons posing as teachers, using seriously flawed tools.

Thanks guys, haven't heard from the teacher yet. Actually we have been on pretty good terms with the teacher, my older daughter (6th grade) had her for second grade and liked her allright, but I'm really disappointed in the way she handled this. Perhaps she was having a bad day. I know it's only one problem, but I don't want my daughter's confidence in her ability to solve these word problems shaken by being told she's wrong when I believe she has it right. And I want the teach to know I'm paying attention!

quote:

Originally posted by MMM:
Thanks guys, of course my 7 yr-old daughter had this problem from a standardized workbook. She came up with 460 pennies. When I reviewed her homework with her I agreed. A poorly written question to be sure, but I don't see how you can come up with anything but 460. At school her teacher marked it wrong, she said the answer is 100. To arrive at an answer of 100 you have to assume something that is not stated in the problem. My daughter tried to explain to her how she came up with 460. All the teacher did was flip to the back of her textbook to the answer key, and said no, see your answer doesn't match this one so it's wrong. That disappoints me and pisses me off at the same time. I'm just enough of an asshole to call her on it, wrote her a note, will be interesting to see what she says.
Arkypete probably has the most realistic take on it, but I think I will let my little girl enjoy her childhood as long as she can before having to confront the real world.

I'm a 5th grade teacher but I have taught Kindergarten in the past. IMO, that problem as you stated it is simply garbage. I would guess that it was supposed to say that "Brad counted 40 pennies and still had 10 stacks to count. But regardless, you can't change "groups" to "stacks" in the middle of a problem.

As a teacher I take pride in pointing out to my students that we all make mistakes, even teachers and often the textbooks. Just last week I gave my students a worksheet that was designed to "trick" them and remind them to carefully read directions. It tricked all but two students.

Upon further review I decided that the worksheet and the directions were too ambiguous and told my students that I was the one who had been fooled.

Anyway your daughter should not be worried about a wrong or right answer. School is a place to learn and grow. Making mistakes is part of the learning process.

If her teacher can't see that the problem is flawed she is not too bright, IMO.

Jason, I fell for one of those "read-the-whole-thing-through-before you do anything" exercises in the 4th grade! There was no doubt about it, Mrs. Hawthorne had me dead to rights and she let me know it too! I have never forgotten that lesson, either. The great teachers stick with you all your life. I try to remember that with my girls - you just never know when you're creating a moment for a kid that will stick with them for the rest of their life - good or bad.

quote:

Originally posted by MMM:
The great teachers stick with you all your life.

That, no doubt, is why I became a teacher. Teaching is the best job in the world because I know that I am making a difference in the lives of my students.

The problem with my "read the whole thing" worksheet was that it said, "Read the directions before completing the tasks" then it went on to list 15 numbered tasks. Normally the directions are the paragraph at the top of the page and everything that follows are considered "problems" or "tasks". My worksheet did not say "read the whole paper before getting started", only "read the directions".

MMM + all concerned (read Americans). My Masters degree was in history,my minor was in geometry (read math to some). I could not make a living teaching history (pity,as so many need to know) but I do have a sheet metal shop that is my bread + butter because NO ONE out there understands angles + degrees.Sorry,old man rant # 365.