quote:

It takes a REAL MAN to make a post like LWD did.

+1

re: "We’ve searched the ten yards around the blood trail 4 times looking for more blood..."

Others have already mentioned that sometimes the blood just seems to "stop."

-But it may start again, albeit slightly, and much further out.

I'm sure that y'all already did this... but from the very last spot, I tend to search increasingly bigger circles or grids. He's out there somewhere!

LWD, "Kudos" to you for your post-
It would be great to have these mysteries put to rest. Until then... let not your heart be troubled.

+++

BTW... I know this ain't your first Rodeo, but for some of the less experienced hunters, I found some interesting comments at:

http://www.tipsforhunting.com/deer/wounded_deer.php

"Wounded whitetails do not always follow a straight line and will sometimes take a 90-degree turn, zigzag, do U-turns, and other crazy things.

With their life bleeding out of them, they can be unpredictable and desperate. While tracking, keep looking ahead for the white belly or some part of your wounded deer."

http://www.whitetailsinsight.com/deerhuntingtips.htm

This site had stuff all the way from where to set up your stand, to tracking after the shot, inc:

"While you wait examine any signs you find. A deer’s hair can tell you a lot about where he was hit. Each part of the hide has its own distinct hair. If you find long coarse hair that’s hollow, dark with black tip’s, comes from along the spine. The area of the heart has long, dark guard hairs. The brisket area has curly, coarse hair that is stiff and dark to black. Long coarse wavy hair comes from around the tail. Coarse hollow hair brownish gray with light tips is from the area of the stomach."

And, there were some guidelines on the different recovery methods for each type of shot: Vitals, Gut, Brisket, etc.

Copyright© K. J. Blakesley; Article Source: http://EzineArticles.com/?expert=Keith_Blakesley

This site had a couple cool diagrams I'll show my kids before their next WT Hunt outing: http://www.texashuntingchat.co...ing-blood-trail.html

"The .243 is a great little cartridge for deer, but I like to see only broadside shots. I don't know the age of your children or how accurately they can shoot the rifle, but I would recommend you teach them to shoot one of two places on a deer.

1. Tight behind the shoulder, no more than 1/3rd the way up from the belly. This keeps the wound channel near the heart and the large vessels from the heart to the lungs. It also provides a low exit hole on the animal (if there is one).

A low exit is almost guaranteed to leave a good blood trail...whereas a high lung shot will leave little or no blood trail...(since most of the blood collects inside the chest cavity).

2. The next shot I recommend...requires the hunter be able to maintain a certain degree of accuracy (3" at 100 yds. will do). It is the "high shoulder shot"...and when properly done, it drops deer in their tracks. The results are the same as a neck shot (central nervous system) but it is a slightly easier target to hit because your margin for error is little greater."

Again... thanks for your boldness in sharing.
Happy Hunting in Tejas!

LWD-

This sucks and I feel for ya! But chances are that deer is dead somewhere close by. Check every cedar tree closely. Two weekends ago I shot a cull 8 pt at 75 yds with a 257 wby using a 115 grain NBT. He was standing perfectly broadside and I hammered him right behind the shoulder and he took off and was starting to plow when I lost sight of him because of the cedar (hill country). I gave him 20 min or so and followed the blood trail that was just as obvious as yours was. I couldn't believe he could bleed this much for so long but he did! Finally the blood just stopped...nothing. I began to have my doubts but after 15 or so minutes I found him about 20 yds away under a huge cedar tree where the vultures never would have seen him and since we don't have much in the way of 'yotes he would have just decomped. What I found odd was that he had run right smack into the base of the tree that had branches that were at least 8 ft long (you know how thick they are!!) and wadded up. His head was stuck about 3 ft up and legs straddling the base. I had to get on my hands and knees to reach in and pull him out!

Anyway, as many others have already pointed out and I'm sure you know, they can go a long ways when hit well. Heck, my buck's opposite shoulder was smashed and the exit was the size of a baseball.....and this is a 120 lb animal!!! Seems to defy all logic but it happens.

Either that or you broke his leg.

It's gonna happen so don't let it haunt you too much.

Merry Christmas!
Scott

I appreciate all the thoughtful and insightful comments. Not sure this makes me a "real man" but that's a compliment I won't turn down. If I can get enough work down in the next day and a half, I'm going back out Thursday afternoon. Maybe I'll have some better news.

LWD

quote:

Originally posted by DTala:
You probably hit a little into the shoulder, that would be the bone you found. 85gr HP exploded on the shoulder, lots of blood and a crippled lost deer. A good dog is the way to find this deer.

I said many years ago"If one hunts deer with a 243 you will eventually lose a deer for no other reason that you were shooting a 243"...

Now, I shoot a 243 a good bit, but use 95gr Nosler Partitions which, in your case, would of penetrated far beyond the shoulder impact spot.

If you had been shooting a 270Win with premium bullets the buck would of been recovered.

I hope you find him, good luck.

troy

About 25 years ago, I bought my first and only .243 to hunt deer; a Ruger M77RSI because I thought it was such a cool gun and the .243 was at its peak in popularity. I used 100gr bullets. I lost the only 2 deer I've ever lost with that cartridge, after making really good shots at close range. After that I went back, did my homework, and decided my new minimum for whitetail would require at least a 120gr bullet of any caliber. Now certainly one can kill deer with less; I just felt that after studying the ballistics, 120gr was the minimum for me; I felt it was the right thing to do.------There are some .243 bullets available in 120gr; they're hard to find, and you would probably have to handload. I think a .243 loaded with 120gr bullets would be a better choice that 85-100gr bullets. However, I prefer larger calibers with heavy bullets. The physics are always on your side when using heavy bullets, and usually the accuracy goes up as well. Alot of folks like the 139gr in a 7x57; I find the 175gr bullets are more effective and more accurate, and I've taken deer with both. I just like having physics on my side.

Having said all that, I'm really sorry you lost that nice buck. It happens, even to the best shots regardless of the caliber selection. Good luck, and I hope you get a shot at another good buck this season.

Mike

From the bone you show there and the reaction he showed, I would say you hit the sternum.

Shit happens. As has been said, there are only two kinds of hunters who've shot much game, those who've lost one or more and those who are going to. The others are usually lying.

He'd likely be dead if you'd used a .223.

LWD,

I had something like this happen to me a couple of years ago just north of Lost Maples near Vanderpool.
Big bodied, mature buck @ 85 yds. I was using a 45-70 with 400 gr bullets. He was facing me and getting skittish so rather than him turn and run, I launced a bullet straight at his brisket. I also thought I made a good hit. At the hit, he sunfished like a bucking bronc, went over backwards and was down. I levered another round into the rifle. As he fell, he did so behind a cedar. So I couldn't get another clear shot. I waited a couple seconds and he jumped and took off the way he had come in. I launched another round but missed. Like you, I thought I had made a killing shot and would find him 30 yards or so back in the cedar.
I waited about 15 minutes, radioed my bud what I had done. He asked if I needed any help tracking. I told him we would know directly.
When I got to the place where the bullet had impacted the deer there was a lot of blood. Also as in your case, there were bone fragments on the ground. As I started tracking, about every 8 or 10 feet there would be more blood. I followed this dude for about 300 yds., thinking to myself, how could this buck be running and losing that much blood.
I got to the property line and radioed my bud to have the rancher call his neighbor to get permission to track this deer across his property and to make sure whether he had any hunters, as I did not want to get shot while on my hands and knees tracking a deer. After the deer jumped the fence the blood kinda petered out. We would see droplets on grass or bush where he passed by while on the move, then a splash where he stopped to rest. It was about 7:30 am when I shot him. We tracked him till 2 pm that afternoon. Never found him, did not have a GPS and was as lost as a goose. As I did not have a flashlight or any kind of gear, I told my bud that it would be dark in a little over three hours, and we needed to find our way back, as we were not equipped to spend the night out in the current conditions.
Two weeks later I got a report that some guys at the back of our lease had seen a big buck that was favoring his left front leg. They were not able to get a shot. Evidently he was still alive.
The only thing I could figure is that I must have pulled the shot or, from the time I decided to pull the trigger to the impact of the bullet he must have turned to the left just a hair, and I hit him a glancing wound on the brisket or shoulder. He lost a ton of blood and some bone, but was able to travel over a mile before we lost him. An experience like that sure don't make for a good evening.
Best
GWB

quote:

I was using a 45-70 with 400 gr bullets.

Another big gun don't cover all evils story.

If the .45 cal slug had gone through the boiler room...game over...but...if it does not...its might does not always prevail! If that .243 slug had gone through the chest cavity...dead dear too.

Not finding a wounded deer is tuff, it's a bad feeling and I simpothise with you. My first rifle was a 243 and I killed a lot of deer both bucks and doe with it. I never lost a deer and honestly never tracked one very far, so I don't write the caliber off like some people do. I shot Sierra's in it for a while, but switched to partion's because of a article I read in a hunting magazine where the auther detailed his results with them in a 25-06. They also worked quite well and I stuck with them. At any rate I do have two situations somewhat like yours that I can relay.

1. A long time ago my uncle shot a buck with a 243, I don't recall what type of bullet. The deer was shot about 80 yards he found a piece of bone some hair and blood. My father and I helped him track the deer but never found it. A year later I shot and killed the buck in a cornfield only a few hundred yards from where he was hunting the year before. The deer had a broken front leg, and I dug his old slug out of the shoulder. The bullet blew up and never made it trough the bone. The deer was in pretty good shape considering it only had use of three legs.

2. The only deer I have hit and not recovered was in Texas. Much like you I had a pretty good rest and the deer was at a corn feeder about 170 yards away. It was a good broadside shoot. After the hit the deer stagered and fell behind a bush. I was shooting a Browning A bolt 270 with 140 grain bullets, auctually the gun I replaced the 243 with. I had taken a lot of deer with this gun and bullet combo, and just watched this deer fall so no problem. I waited a while and went to collect my deer, the only problem was there was no deer just blood behind the bush. Long story short we tracked and looked for three more days and never found him. When I got back home I took the gun to the range to make sure the scope was still on after a long car ride home. It shot all over the paper with a group that could be measured in feet not inches. It took a long time to figure out the problem, but the Pentax Nightseeker scope had a broken reticle. I sent it off and got a brand new one which I promptly traded in for a Leoupold. This is the only one I ever owned so I'm not saying Pentax makes bad scopes, I just had a bad experince with the one I owned and It cost me a really nice deer.

Shot placement does relegate other discussions to secondary importance.

judging from the bone fragments, i'd say the op hit the deer in the leg. the blood also looks like muscle blood to me. shoot the deer (or any animal) in the right place with the right projectile, and the animal dies. either the aim was off or the bullet was insufficient for the task. luckily, both can be corrected in short order.

Was there an elevation difference between you and the deer? Were you in a tripod, tree stand, or box blind off the ground? If so, I am thinking the shot was low and you got part of the sternum, like some of the other posters have suggested. That would account for the bone and the muscle blood with no deer.

If that is the case, don't be surprised if you see that buck again. What I am suggesting would not have been a fatal shot.

Used to hunt a lease near Concan, Tx, just south of Neal's, If anybody knows it. Anyway we had a whole 20 acres, that had three hills on it. It just happend to be surounded on 3 sides by a giant ranch. Long story short deer everywhere. The way the hills were we hunted 4 of us w/ no chance of shooting each other. My buddy JP was shooting a .308. One day a huge buck was at the bottom of the hill and looking straight up at him about 200yds away. Well JP put the x-hairs on his chest and pulled the trigger. Buck skidded backwards, turned around and hauled ass. We went to look for blood but all we found was a piece of white hide about 10" long and the width of a .308. Seems the angle was just right and the bullet skidded down the buck's breast bone and did nothing else. When even found his skid marks where he went backwards. Like they say Shit happens.

quote:

He'd likely be dead if you'd used a .223. Wink

Gato, I'm not touching that with a ten foot pole!

I'm not going to get to go back out today. Work has gotten in the way. Maybe in the morning. The way he reacted, I'm more inclined to think it was a low sternum hit than a leg. I was shooting from an elevated blind about 12 feet up.

quote:

either the aim was off or the bullet was insufficient for the task. luckily, both can be corrected in short order.

If it was the aim, I'll need some practice this spring. If it was the bullet that will be fixed the next time I'm out. The .30-06 with 168 TSXs will be with me. I think I will demote the .243 to doe and spike duty.

LWD

No need to demote the 243 to a doe and spike gun. We shoot 200 to 300 pound deer in Mn. with them and good bullets I don't think those Tx deer are that much harder to kill. I have tracked more deer shot whith 7 mags and 30-06's than 243's. But do what you are comfortable doing if it is the 06 with 168 TSX so be it.

LWD, as has been stated already on this thread, don't beat yourself up. There are only two kinds of folks that don't miss: those that don't shoot, and those that lie...

I sincerely hope he made it and you get a second chance at him. Whitetails are incredibly tough!

I think you smashed the far shoulder by shooting just in front of the lungs. That would get that reaction to shot, blood bone and lack of dead deer. You mention having to be quite quick and from what you said you might have pulled the shot right (how was your trigger control?)

243 or sierra has nothing to do with it. Just one of those things. Quite a hard shot with little margin for error regardless of calibre.

kingd,
know where its at, well.
go by Neal's every time I go to my lease at Reagan Wells. Will be going by there Sunday on 127 just before I head south on 83.
GWB

PS: even use Fabian's from time to time for processing. Take the ferry when I do.

LWD,

You need to go back and find the dead deer. If for no other reason than for all the things you'll learn from doing it. At least two of your photos provide pretty strong evidence of the deer bleeding out of two holes that appear to be sort of laterally oriented. If you don't, you learn little to nothing from the experience compared to what you'll learn if you do.

Not enough penetration to get both lungs, this is why most of us prefer larger calibers than .223 & .243 for deer. The 85 gr. Sierra is a varmint bullet, you should have expected the results that you got. Hit in only one lung a deer can easily go for half a mile. If you continue to use the .243, at least go to a 100 gr. bullet.

That's a bummer for sure, but it happens to all of us if you do it enough.

I've seen bullets explode on a shoulder impact 3 times in the last few years. Two were found as they were luckily hit with another lethal shot and both exploded on the shoulder bone creating a large surface wound with absolutely no entrance into the cavity.

I've also seen some strange deflections when the shoulder was hit.

I feel the best approach with expansive pills and small calibers is to keep them to the rib cage and broad side impacts.

Reloader

quote:

Originally posted by LWD:
...So what went wrong? ...I’d appreciate everyone’s thoughts.

Regards,

LWD

Well, you asked... What went wrong? You used too small a bullet! In spite of the tens of thousands of head of game shot with .223 to .243 caliber rifles, this is far more likely a result with them than larger bores. Until dope dealers began favoring 9mm's in the 1980's, the .22LR was responsible for more murders in the U.S. than all other calibers combined for many decades (according to FBI crime statistics). That hardly makes it a reccomended defensive caliber!

My guess is you shot low and hit a leg, thus the bone fragments. Granted a fifty cal. would have probably had the same results it that's the case but generally speaking I never reccomend less than 120gr. in any caliber for deer-sized game PERIOD. Flame away guys but the man asked for opinions and that's mine!

LWD, Just my opinion but I'll stand behind it. Your bullet choice should be considered for future reference. It is a fast expanding variety aside from being a smaller caliber, and lacks penetration when met by bone on medium to large game. Personally, I'd step up to an Accubond, Partition, A-Frame, Barnes X, etc. Just my thoughts having run the gauntlet years ago with light calibers and "varmint" bullets. Sure, you can kill hundreds of deer with your rig; BUT, what about those big bucks? My last northern TX buck field dressed 195 lbs with the Game Warden standing there at the meat locker. We wasn't impressed..I sure as hell was.
Now to the evidence. Again, this is my opinion based on decades of hunting and 17 years as a professional Taxidermist. I feel your bullet took that buck at the base of the scapula and expanded too quickly to enter the rib cage and damage any vitals. I see tell-tale signs of this in your bone pics. The blood is too transparent; no visible sign of a lung hit (air bubbles and lung "foam" tissue). Those pools of blood aren't large, trust me. He stood there assessing what the hell just happened and watching his back trail. He will bed down soon but not before he's convinced what ever wounded him isn't following. Once bedded, he'll be up and moving before you get within sight of him unless you had given him 4-6 hrs at least. Is he dead? Probably. Coyotes are his biggest worry. When you go back, use toilet paper to mark your trail at head height. You'll be able to see your back trail and get a line on his travel if he's not on an obvious trail. Once you get to the end of the blood trail (he was clotting, so it began to slack off) make widening zig-zags and keep an eye on your trail markers for reference. If you can, use any wind to your advantage: you should smell him if he's dead. Even if nothing but a greasy spot where Coyote's ate him will leave a bile/gut smell. If yote's did eat him, you should be able to find his rack. I wish you the best with recovery. As mentioned, dogs are the way to go or at least a few friends. Neither are never handy when you need them.
Cheers,
LDK

IF coyotes got him there should be hair scattered for 50 yards in all directions.

It's awfully easy to walk by a dead deer. I was in my late 20's and had taken more than a few deer when I shot one very solidly in the rain. My uncle, who was a very experienced tracker, joined me while we waited a bit for the deer to lay down. The area is heavily hunted and we didn't want to push him into another hunter. After about 30 minutes we took the trail slowly and after about 75 yards the blood trail dies out (washed away I think) but the disturbance the deer made running wasn't really difficult to follow for my uncle.

Another 100-150 yards and we just rain out of sign and we looked hard ---went back and took either side of the trail back to the spot where we lost it ---nothing. We marked the spot and slowly walked in the direction the deer had been moving --nothing so we went back to the spot we marked and sat under a bit of shelter out of the rain while we discussed the situation. After about 30 minutes my Dad walked up and asked why we hadn't started cleaning the deer. I said the trail had run out and I didn't know how to clean a deer that wasn't dead. He started laughing and took me by the arm for about 15 feet and pointed and there was the deer -- dead as it was ever going to get. My uncle and I had been within 20 or 30 feet of the deer for sometime and after you knew where it was you couldn't believe you missed it the first time as your eyes seem to just go past it.

Here's something that has helped me in the past. Go 100 yards past the last blood and hunt back toward that spot - deer tend to lay down facing the back-trail and if come on the dead deer from the back you'll see more of his body.

LWD

The .243 is plenty for deer, i just really dont like the 85gr bthp, now it may have worked great on a broadside presentation on doe's, but a frontal on a mature buck is another thing.

If you used a TSX @ max velocity i have no doubt you would have found your deer. You can drill bone and what ever with such a great bullet and it most likely would have exited or at least reached vitals.

No doubt, that Sierra "blew up" chalk it up as a learning experience and try a TSX or TTSX and you will see much better results, sorry for your loss, i have been there and done that and it really sucks

quote:

I lined the crosshairs on the crease inside his left front shoulder.

If it was his back shoulder I'd be worried
When the deer went through the brush, was there blood on the branches & leaves? One side or both if so? If only straight on the ground I'd think brisket, usually a leg would wipe at least some blood onto brush. I have a can of floresant orange paint around for marking trees or the ground in ever widening circles, going no wider then what I can see my last paint spots. I have found those 85 grn gamekings very tough, they hardly open on woodchucks or yotes out of a 6mm at top velocities. Shit does happen, a deer here on the place was hit with a frontal shot from a 165 grn out of a 300 rem short mag. It ran off, wasnt found until the next day after the coyotes had eaten most and you could find it by the smell from the stomach opened up.

I appreciate everyone's continued comments and support. Regrettably, I am afflicted with a case of pneumonia at the moment so I won't be back out until Tuesday probably. A couple of other guys have been out and saw nothing. No wounded deer, no buzzards, no piles of hair.

quote:

If you used a TSX @ max velocity i have no doubt you would have found your deer.

I agree. I use the TSX in my .30-06 and .375H&H with great results. I just couldn't get them to shoot in this gun. Everything hovered around a 2" +/- group. I may try the TTSX now that it's out.

The confidence I have in my .30-06 and the 168 TSX is why I've pulled it back out of the closest.

quote:

From the bone you show there and the reaction he showed, I would say you hit the sternum.

That's my thought. I think this bone is too thick and large to be leg or scapula.

quote:

You mention having to be quite quick and from what you said you might have pulled the shot right (how was your trigger control?)

Well, it felt good. I had the gun out the window. Didn't have to rush the shot. I just didn't think I could wait for the deer to give me a better one.

quote:

At least two of your photos provide pretty strong evidence of the deer bleeding out of two holes that appear to be sort of laterally oriented.

I thought so too. Which is why I am puzzled that there's no deer. Though as another pointed out, it does lack the pink and frothy look of lung blood.

quote:

Go 100 yards past the last blood and hunt back toward that spot - deer tend to lay down facing the back-trail and if come on the dead deer from the back you'll see more of his body.

I will try that next time I am out.

Merry Christmas to all.

LWD