I friend of my asked me today if I thought winchesters failsafe bullets where to much for whitetail Deer. I ased him in what cal, and waights he said .270 130gr. 30.06 150gr. and 308 150 gr. I told him I didn't think so. Anyone else have an opinion?

How can you ever have too much gun/bullet???

Seriously, I use Win Failsafes in my 338 (230 gr) for everything. SC whitetails that go 110 lbs to WY mulies that go 200 lbs to African eland that go 2000 lbs+. The bullet has always performed well, with controlled expansion and high weight retention.

What type of situation is your friend hunting in? Are most shots 50 yards or less and he's concerned about it blowing through without expanding? A well placed shot will kill whatever is on the receiving end, so don't think that expansion should matter either.

Good Lord, whitetail's ain't hard to kill... any simple cup bullet will do fine and, in my experience, will give more instantaneous kills on deer-sized stuff than the Failsafe. The Failsafe's forte is bad angle shots on BIG, big game. That's not to say they can't be used on whitetails (especially in the West where season's overlap) but there are better and, yes, cheaper choices... me thinks the marketing (read: brainwashing) of the bullet companies and their mouthpieces (many gunwriters) is taking hold in the minds of many...

BA

sed1945,

I've used 140 gr. Fail Safes for years in a 7mm-08 with great success. What I like the most about them is their consistency. IMO

I've used them on whitetails with great success. Having said that though, I have come to prefer the Nosler Partition for all my deer guns. They seem to kill a little quicker on broadside lung shots most likely due to the front core blowing off and making a mess of the chest cavity. They don't seem to give up much in penatration to the Failsafe either. Finally, in my guns, they were a lot easier to get to shoot well than the Failsafe which can be rather tempermental in a less than perfect barrel.

BTW, I don't trust any cup jacketed non-bonded bullets on anything other than broadside shots. There performance window is just too small for truely reliable performance. IMO non-bonded cup bullets are obsolete for use in the field.

Gabe

The Failsafe would work fine, though it is really in its element on heavier game. The .308 180 Failsafe was perfect for Afrcian plains game of 600 pounds give or take.

A Nosler Partition offers more rapid expansion of the front section and would be a better deer bullet in my opinion.

Brad,
He might prove your point but that doesn't make it a correct one. If someone is shooting a hig velocity caliber/bullet combination I see no reason why he should trust his luck to conventional cup core bullets. Yes, they have worked fine in the past, for the most part...but that other part can/has/will eventually cause a guy to lose a good animal because the bullet came apart to quickly.
In today's market place we have so many better choices for hunting bullets. They don't cost THAT much more and for hunting use what's the difference anyway? If a guy shoots half of one box to work up a good load and then uses the rest for hunting he will never notice the extra cost. Buy the cheap stuff for practice!

sed1945-
The Fail Safe is a very stout bullet and really not designed for deer hunting, as already stated. I have used the 140gr 270cal on several mule deer and antelope with very good results, but frankly I'd stay with a partition if it was strictly for deer hunting. Another choice he might try is the new Accubond from Nosler. I am loading them right now for a deer hunt this fall, accuracy is excellent and with better weight retention than a regular Ballistic Tip they should be perfect deer bullets, maybe elk bullets too!

To me, the only real justification for using Fail-Safe bullets on deer is if your rifle shoots them especially well, and/or if you primarily plan to hunt game heavier and tougher than deer with that rifle and load.

I've done so myself. I used 180 gr. Fail-Safe factory ammo in my .300 Winchester for a couple of years as my one and only load for African game up to 2000 lbs., plus mule deer, elk, black bear, and Texas whitetails. I simply grabbed the rifle out of the rack, a couple of boxes of Fail-Safe ammo off the shelf, then went hunting. It worked superbly on everything.

I will say, if you want the best instant knockdown effect on light game with Fail-Safes, aim for the shoulder. Straight lung shots will surely kill 'em alright, but they might run a ways first. Since Fail-Safe bullets stay together so very well, shoulder shots don't tend to blow everything all to heck and gone as would some of the popularly-price "tinfoil" bullets with the same sort of shot placement. That's my experience anyway......

AD

Brad

Lets say I offered you two cars for about the same price one being a Ford Festiva and the other a BMW 535i, which would you choose? I truely wish that I had the time to shoot enough rounds to notice the price difference between premiums and cheapies.

I'll give you this, stardard cup bullets will work fine for the vast majority of chances. My problem is that for a few dollars more, you can have a bullet that works all the time on all chances. Cup bullets have never been great, we only accepted their failures because we HAD to. We don't have to any more.

If you choose to use lesser and cheaper bullets and limit your shots accordingly have at it. I for one will not turn down the shot of a lifetime to save $5 on a box of bullets.

I stand by my statement, standard cup bullets are obsolete for serious hunters.

Just my brainless brainwashed opinion.

Gabe

I would love to try fail safes but don't want to mess with moly as I also what to be able to shoot other non-moly bullets.

I wish Nosler made non-moly versions of fail safes like they do with the Partition Gold. Mike in customer service said the non-moly Partition Golds outsell the moly version. Should be easy enough, not extra steps, just ship them out before they coat'em.

What oo you say we all put in a call or two to Nosler (800 285-3701) to lobby for non-moly fail safes? I put one in to John Nosler, head of marketing. Had to leave him a voice mail message (he was out hunt'in!).

It is amazing what a little feedback can accomplish with a good company that listens to its customers.

180 grain failsafe out of 30/06. 5 shells 5 kills. My hunting partner love them that i loaded for him. They are accurate and only at med velocity

I've been shooting FailSafes for several years in my 270 Win. these are factory loads.I would buy them at 100-200rds at a time same lot.This was before I started reloading.I tried them on a suggestion and was amazed at the accuracy which is under an 1" alawys.
Ok my rifle loves them and these first ones were Lubalox.When I ran low on ammo I ordered anothe 100 and they are Moly coated.I had to move my scope 2 clicks to the right.
These are killin bullets on the whitetails.I've shot them at all about all angles and have yet to recover one.They are built way heavier than WV whitetails need but I hunt hard for my game and when I get that oppertunity I want to be reasonably sure that I can take the animal at less than perfect angle,so far the 140gr. FailSafes outta my 270 Win. have never failed me.
This is the only gun I've ever shot them out of.I have 42 left and wonder how I can improve on the accuracy of this rifle and this factory load.

Nope, Brad's got it right.

No need for those $1 a pop bullets on deer.
Your friend would benefit more from shooting a shitpile of Hornady's and getting to know his gun.

Cup and core bullets are FAR from obsolete.

There is NO reason to use a failsafe on a deer, unless you have too much money.

Will they work?? Yes

Will they work BETTER than a Hornady? NO

Will they cost 5 times as much?? Yes.

Keep pumping money for the premiums, and they'll keep raising the price to "reward" you.

[ 08-01-2003, 04:20: Message edited by: Johnny Ringo ]

Papaschmud,
If you TOOK the time to fire enough rounds between the Hornady's and Failsafe's to notice a price difference, not only would you be a FAR better shot, and you wouldn't NEED the Failsafes !!

The Failsafe is a terrific bullet but is not at all necessary on medium game such as whitetail, pronghorn or mule deer. In fact, while a Failsafe will definitely kill a deer, I'd say it's less effective than a conventional jacketed bullet such as the Hornady Spire Point or Speer Hot Core. In my part of the state, a buck may not weigh more than 150-175 pounds. With such minimal resistance, a Failsafe will impart minimal shock transfer whereas a standard spitzer will open well and penetrate more than sufficiently to put the game down quickly and humanely.

What amazes me is that millions upon millions of deer have been taken with "standard" bullets over the years. But a new generation now seems to profess that we have bionic deer which require nothing less than a pound of powder and a premium missile. For me, a 140 grain, 6.5mm bullet at 27-2800 fps is all I'll ever need for any deer that ever walked. Heck, even my 14" Contender barrel in 6.5 mm JDJ (120 grain BT at 2400 fps) has taken all sorts of medium game as well and is extremely effective out to 225-250 yards.

Those who overanalyze the situation are the likeliest proponents of FailSafes on deer. Granted, if you are a one-gun/one-load hunter and pursue everything from deer to moose, a FailSafe is a great idea. But if you spend your time chasing pronghorn on the prairie or whitetail in the woodlands, there are better bullets for the job.

We have heard from people that have had great success with them even on smaller game. I have no doubt that this is true. Those that say that they are not necessary for deer are also telling the truth, I'm sure.

Where I hunt there is a great variety of game that may be hunted and therefore I am a big fan of "premium" type bullets even for deer as I really dislike more than one load for a single rifle. To me it is simpler and I like and grasp simple things better. Therefore I am toying with de-molying some failsafes to shoot in my rifle as I have had great success getting them to shoot in other rifles I have tried them in.

As for needing to be rich to use them. ????? I see it a totally different way. The hunting experience is expensive and I want confidence that the bullet I use will do the job I ask it to. To me it is worth that dollar.

Chuck

I've killed 4 whitetails with the similar X-bullet. Mine were all .308, 125 grain.

What an X or FailSafe does is make a less-than-perfect shot angle a reasonable shot. If a real trophy presents himself at a bad angle, a FailSafe or X gives you the option of taking the shot with a realistic chance for success.

In my case, the X bullet was the difference between success and failure one year when, on the last day I got to hunt, I got to see the south-bound end of a north-bound deer right before dark. The Texas heart shot did, indeed, drive longitudinally through the deer and through the heart.

Field dressing was a gosh-awful mess, but the X was the difference that year between deer and no deer.

If you want to use FailSafes, the lighter weights for a given caliber should work just fine. By the way, of the 4 deer I killed with the X bullet, non went farther than 25-30 yards. The only deer I ever killed with a Ballistic Tip ran farther than that.

Finally, I've never understood why guys who spend gazillions of dollars on deer leases, feeders, food plots, food supplements, camo clothes, 4-wheelers, 4-wheel drives, rifles, scopes, laser range finders, calls, scents, on and on ad infinitum, balk at the cost of premium bullets. They're the least expensive part of the hunt.

Hornady makes good bullets and I killed a deer with one last year. But deep-penetrators do provide options in some circumstances that simple cup & core bullets don't.

BigIron

[ 08-02-2003, 02:39: Message edited by: BigIron ]

I have shot many boxes of Failsafe bullets in rifles from 270 Win to 338 Mag. I have a 300 Win Mag that shoots the 180 gr really well. I have noticed that in my 270 deer don't show much sign of a hit unless hit in the spine or shoulder. They don't seem to have the shock factor that a ballistic Tip or power point. That being said they are super on Elk, Moose, and Big Bear. I've shot Elk,Moose,3 Bear,Boar,and a Huge Asian Buffalo with the 230 grain 338 and have yet to recover a bullet. Penetration has been superb.

I have taken several whitetails with the 165 gr. FailSafe in a 30/06. That rifle "likes" that bullet over Vihtauvuori 550 (has expensive taste, huh) and I can use it with confidence on bigger game, if I so choose. It also kills deer pretty dead with a minimum of meat loss.

I chuckle at these guys who slam expensive bullets...When my pocketbook dictates what bullet I use will be the day I sell my guns, use WalMart factory loads in my 30/30 and take only broadside, close-up shots.....

Yes indeed cup bullets ARE obsolete.

Webster's defines obsolete as being out of date and falling from use. Cup bullets are both. End of that argument.

Weather they should be or not is debateable. For my part, I will not use them again unless they are bonded.

Obsolesence has come upon many hunting devices over the years, from spears to bows to lead bullets to cup jacket bullets, the tools of our sport have gotten better and more reliable. This does not mean that if you so choose you can't pick up a tool that offers more challenge.

I for one am not into that. I archery hunt because it offers me a better chance of killing large bucks. I maintain a Freedom .454 for the counties of my state that don't allow rifles. In either case, I'm not going with the lesser tools to increase the challenge but to increase my opportunities at trophy bucks. When I go with the rifle I take the best tool for the job. That includes using the best bullets for the task.

Though the Failsafe is one of the best, I choose the Partition. I feel it is hands down the ideal deer bullet.

If someone wishes to increase the challenge of their hunt by using cup bullets, feel free. Properly selected and restricted to their rather narrow velocity window, they will do the job almost all the time on broadside shots........ if you have the time and inclination to wait for that shot. I don't.

A good friend of mine took his largest buck to date two years ago with a raking shot 10 minutes prior to dusk. At 150 yards the 140gr. 6.5 Partition entered just in front of the hip and exited the chest crumpling the buck. The buck was walking a narrow ATV trail directly away from his position and offerd no other opportunity.

In contrast, in the last 6 years I have witness both a 150gr. 7mm and a 180 gr. 30 cal. (both winchester made cup bullets) not exit smallish whitetails on broadside shots. That means they gave less than 10" of penetration. In the shot described above that would not have cut it.

Penetration and expansion are what we require from top flight bullets. Cup bullets CAN do this, but they come with a rather narrow window of velocities at which they will perform well. After that you deal with varying degrees of failure. Some of those "failures" will be effective and some won't.

To be sure, I'm not one who believes that premiums enlarge the kill zone, they just flat don't. What they allow you to do is to reach that kill zone from almost any angle. That is their advantage and that is why cup bullets are obsolete.

Hunt with cup bullets if you wish (or a handgun or a bow) and enjoy it , but don't have any delusions about them being more effective than an accurate rifle loaded with premiums.

Gabe

According to a �research� done in a Norwegian hunting magazine, the most expensive bullet isn�t always the best. More than 1000 hunters participated with their experiences on different calibres, bullets, run out distance after shot, number of shots etc�

The bigger animals benefited from being taken with copper or bounded bullets, but from reindeer (caribou) and down traditional bullets like Sierras etc put them down quicker due to more internal damage of the more explosive nature of the bullet.

Also, when magnum calibres went over 300 win mag levels in recoil there was often more shots needed to make a successful kill. Not because bigger doesn�t kill better, but because their harder to aim properly.

Remember this is the average results of many hunters. If one for instance did this study on a more experienced group of shooters, results of the bigger calibres would be in bigger favour I think.

But yes, I for one believe you can have too much gun and bullet!

In .375H&H winchester fail safes are one of the better choices for cape Buffalo(for the first shot). In 30-06 the 180grn ones are ok on thin game like Kudu but really shine on Eland.

Gentlemen,

Are FS tougher than the Barnes X?

I have used the Barnes X in a 270 Ackley, 130 grains at 3180 fps, on all sorts of African plains game, from Klipspringers to Sable and zebra. Worked great.

I have also used the Barnes X 300 grain in the 375/404 on everything, from duikers to cape buffalo. Worked great, but in this case some might consider this combination as too much gun anyway.

I prefer a bullet that will stay together rather than one that will blow up any day. And the chance of bullets like the FS and Barnes X failing is so remote as hardly worth mentioning.

Saeed, I'm with you. I'd rather have a bullet stay together rather than blow up any day of the week, and for any hunt other than varmints.

In a nutshell, the Fail-Safe works like the Barnes X, but a same-weight F-S it has a shorter over-all length, which of course provides certain advantages. This is accomplished with a steel cup that houses a lead core (in the base) with a steel cap over that. This is a very secure assembly that does not come apart.

AD

Allen,

We have designed and made our own bullet - we called it the Walterhog bullet - in honor of our very own master master of disasters.

have a look at this

Walterhog Bullets

In addition to this design, we have made one with a deeper HP. I have loaded them for our hunt in Tanzania later this month. We plan to use them on everything, from impala to lion and buffalo.

I agree that you might not need a great bullet by why not use it. Saeed has hunted alot and I respect his opinion on the subject of bullets.

My opinion is use what ever brand you want to practice with but don't you think the animal deservise the best to be harvested? I shoot all kinds of standard bullets to practice but you shoot only very few the "expensive" premium bullets. Just for load development and sight in. You can shoot the more economical bullets until you heart is content to practice. Lots of other ways to save money This is my 2 cents.

Hcliff

Here is the recovered Winchester Fail Safe from a young caribou bull. 160 gr. 7mm Remington Magnum factory load. Range was 100 yards (approx. 2675 fps impact speed), placed through both shoulders. Plucked it off the far side. Sure, dead Caribou (after a follow up shot), but this to me is crappy performance from a bullet that costs over $1 a piece for components, $2.50 for factory loads. Barnes X bullets are far superior in all aspects.

Sorry Papaschmud, you're wrong again.

As I said, cup and core bullets are FAR from obsolete, regardless of what you say.

Just because you are willing to shell out a buck a shot, don't assume everyone else will.

90% of the game being shot in North America today is being shot with "non-premium" bullets.

That's HARDLY obsolete.

Sorry, ol Pal, you are wrong again. Keep trying.

[ 08-06-2003, 15:29: Message edited by: Johnny Ringo ]

An interesting analogy is the BMW. Are they better built than the "Average" car. Yep.

Are 90% of the people driving them, because they are better built, regardless of cost??? NOPE

Maybe 4 or 5% of the market is driving them.
The rest of the people realize the car is better built, but not good enough to warrant paying 5 times what a Pontiac Sunfire costs. And the sunfire still gets you there.

Is the Sunfire obsolete???
Not by a long shot. Cars in it's class never will be........they get the job done at a reasonable price..........that 90% of the buyers can afford.

Nope, the premiums have their niche, but as long as they cost as much as they do, with no real advantage on deer-sized game (by far the game hunted/shot the most in NA) they will remian a very small part of the bullet market.

End of that argument, Papa.

Hcliff, no disrespect intended, but concerning your argument that the animals we shoot "deserve the best"
bullet.

So if someone came out with a bullet that was MARGINALLY better (say 1%) than any other bullet on the market, but was $20 a round, you'd use that???

According to your logic, you SHOULD..........because the animals deserve the "best"

More animals are lost due to wounding resulting form lack of practice, than have ever been lost to "standard" bullet failure.

I'd sooner shoot a more inexpensive bullet, shoot a shitpile of them, because I can afford to, and get good with them.

My 3 cents.

The BMW analagy is quite a stretch. We are talking about a dollar here not tens of thousands and I personally think it is money well spent (the dollar). Experience has taught me this.

I find it extremely amusing that people are willing to follow someone who has had great success with a "non premium" type bullet but ignore and even ridicule those who have seen them fail. Funny thing though, it is the failures that stick out in my mind even though the successes outnumber them.

Chuck

TodBartel,
I have seen BarnesX do that same thing and Saeed even posted some very familar to your Failsafe...

One bullet is not to judge by IMO. I have seen many picture perfect Barnes X and Failsafes from Buffalo and other animals..

I think they are very simular, and I heard Barnes himself tell another guy that they only thing he did wrong was not put that steel cup in his bullets!! Hmmmmmm!

I know a lot of PH and world hunters who love that Failsafe bullet, and based on that I would say its a winner....A lot of people whom I respect their opinnion love the Barnes bullet and I am not in agreement with them, but I have in the last two years observed some fantastic performance with them on Buffalo and Eland...My luck has been the oppostite with BarnesX with more than a few failures, so who knows!! I'm going to have to try them again sooner or later I suppose...Next year will be my Failsafe year I think...I"m shooting Woodleighs ans Bridger this year and the new Noslers in my 416 and 450-400.

The old saying about leading a horse to water but can't make him drink seems to apply here. Best to shoot a shit pile of the cheap bullets while practicing, then shoot a good bullet while hunting.

The vendors said magnums were lightning in a bottle. All you had to do was point one in the general direction of an animal and he was dead meat. Many folks bought into that. We've grown older and wiser and now realize that magnums aren't magic. You have to make a proper hit in a vital area for a humane kill. Many of the obsolete cartridges of yesteryear are enjoying a resurgence of popularity. Why? 'cause they get the job done. You don't have to get a nosebleed everytime you light your rifle off in order to kill a whitetail.
The spin doctors have gone on to bullets now. You don't need any woodsmanship, nor shooting ability. Just lob one of the latest superwhangdang boy howdy bullets at the game and he's dead meat. Ass shots are perferred as then the game is killed and gutted all at once. I'm not knocking the fail safe bullet nor any other premium bullet. If you are going to hotdog a light for calibre bullet at hyper velocity, you are going to need a speciality bullet for it to stay together. However I have killed too much game with core lokts and hornady bullets to consider them obsolete. But then, maybe I am not a *****SERIOUS***** hunter. (ROFLMAO)

[ 08-07-2003, 00:10: Message edited by: beemanbeme ]

Amen Beemanbemee.

Very true.

I certainly won't ridicule anyone who uses premiums on elk and moose.

They just seem like wayyyyy overkill on deer to me.

To each their own, I suppose.....but the opinion was asked for , and I gave it.

I guess the fact that I've used "standard" bullets on deer for about 24 years, and never had a "failure" has created that opinion.

[ 08-07-2003, 05:15: Message edited by: Johnny Ringo ]

Conventional bullets might fail on elk and moose but not on deer? How is that?

How can it be that I've seem two conventional bullets BLOW up on smallish whitetails within the last few years. Maybe just bad luck. More than likely just another example of pushing the envelope past an antiquated and obsolete design.

Gabe

I agree that if you push a conventional too fast it will blow up, I don't think anyone can argue that point...

I like corelokts, Hornady interlocks, Power Points for deer but not in magnum rifles..they don't ALL blow up but sooner or later one will at Magnum velocities...Thats why Remington just came out with the Corelokt with a bonded core, so they could deal with the new hi-vel calibers.