Two conventional bullets blow up on smallish deer recently??????????? Some info please for us folks that haven't seen a core lokt nor hornady "blow up" in forty years: What calibre? What cartridge? Velocity? What brand? Where was the deer hit? Define "blow up"? To me that means no penetration with an ugly surface wound.
Does this mean the deer I killed last winter with a 7mm 154gr round nosed Hornady bullet is less dead? Does the fact that the cartridge using the round nosed bullet has a history of over 100 years enter into the equation? I hope not as the deer which was kinda big for around here (@150lbs) was hammered down right smartly.
I have never fired anything but partitions or Grand Slams at elk, and so, can't comment on the use of "conventional" bullets on them. If I did not reload, I wouldn't hesitate to use any of the ammo from remington or hornady and probably winchester and federal with a proper bullet weight.

Both of the blowups were with Winchester factory ammunition. The first was a 150 silvertip supreme from a 7mm Rem Mag at 15 yards broadside. No pieces of lead worth weighing were recoverd and the jacket was also an almost total loss. Bullet started at 150gr retaining less than 20 and did not exit. Second was a 180 Powerpoint from a .300 Win long mag. This one was at 20 yards broadside and once again no exit hole and less than 30 grains of retained weight.

In both cases I would call performance pitiful. In neither case was any bone larger than a rib hit! That's less than 10" of penetration. If the hunter in either case NEEDED 20" of penetration he would have been very disappointed. What bugs me is this is avoidable. For 37 cents per shot more than ordinary bullets, you can reach the vitals from any angle on a whitetail. In my experience in the field, that penetration can be a very helpful if not critical component to a successful hunt.

If a man was willing to LIMIT himself to shots that require less penetration or LIMIT his rifle's performance by going very heavy for caliber, he would be able to hunt his entire life without bullet performance problems. I don't wish to limit myself in either way.

Johnny and Beemanbeme:

This discussion of obsolescence has I'm sure taken place many times throughout history. For example many of the old british hunters didn't want to abandon black powder for cordite. In the early part of the 20th century, the lever rifle ruled the woods. I'm sure that more than few old timers stuck with cast bullets even after cup jacketed bullets were available. Did it make any of them fools or somehow wrong? Hell no, they used what worked for them, even if it was obsolete .

If you will bother to check your dictionary, you will find that the term obsolete absolutely does fit as it pertains to cup bullets. They are both surpassed in performance and falling from use.

I spoke with one of the people from Federal cartridge on Wednesday, she said that she didn't know the exact percentages, but that the Premium line of factory ammo accounted for slightly over 50% of the rifle ammo sales. At that rate of growth, most of the rifle ammo fired will be loaded with a premium controlled expansion bullet within just a few years.

In a mature industry as the hunting/shooting industry is, much of the product is sold purely on fads. For awhile short 21" barrels were all the rage, then duplex or triplex shotshell loads, Remington Sendaros and Winchester Laredos took their turn, now the short mags. All have or will pass. Premium bullets not only stay but have expanded their market share because they work all the time and because hunters realize that 37 cents a shot is dirt cheap hunt insurance.

Gabe

Gabe.........standard bullets are far from obsolete , and it is no problem to select one that will take a deer from any angle . As to the sales of Federal premium ammo , you realize that many of those loads use Sierra Gamekings ?.....hardly a controlled expansion bullet.

I'd take a wild guess and say that more elk are still harvested each year with Core-Locks than all the premiums combined .......

Papaschmud,
now SDgunslinger has it right, and YOU'VE STILL GOT IT WRONG!!!

I love this thread.

Probably 90% of North American Game animals are taken with non-premium bullets, year after year!!!!

You can twist it , turn it, spin it how you want, but cup and core bullets STILL account for 90% of North American Game shot............and that makes them FAR

YES FAR

FAR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

from obsolete.

As far as 37 cents per shot????

Check your facts again my friend. Swift A-frames are $2 EACH as a component bullet where I live. Hornady's are 22 cents.

[ 08-09-2003, 12:33: Message edited by: Johnny Ringo ]

Maybe so, but that still doesn't justify their use! How many elk and deer are wounded and lost because of premature bullet breakup, lack of penetration, etc? They're still used by many hunters because of one or both of the following reasons:
1.They're cheap.
2. They're more accurate in my rifle.
Why is it that we hunters are so darned cheap when it comes to ammo but will spend untold amounts of money on a high priced scope, the latest trend in camo, scent lok garments, 100s of rounds of practice, etc etc? THE BULLET IS THE SINGLE MOST IMPORTANT PART OF THE EQUATION!!!!!!
Unfortunate as it is, it seems the only way most hunters learn the fallacy of their position on this is to actually lose an animal due to bullet failure.

J-R,
I don't know where you buy your bullets but Swifts don't cost me anywhere near $2.00 each! Midway lists them in 30cal 180gr @ $48.29 per box of 50...Nosler partitions are $20.49 for same.

[ 08-08-2003, 17:00: Message edited by: John S ]

Oh, and by the way, I also checked with Federal this morning.

You got bad info. Federal classic ammunition is still outselling the premium lines 10 to 1.

John S,
I can't argue with the bullet being a very important part of the hunt.

I checked my source.....and was wrong. A-frames are $1.42 here now, prices have dropped. Hornady's are still 23 cents.

The question was are Fail-safes necessary on deer.

My response is "NO premium is necessary on deer"

With all due respect, the argument could be made
HOW MUCH GAME HAS BEEN LOST DUE TO:

- hunter believes (has read/been told) that he needs a magnum to hunt well. He can't shoot it well,
and so ends up fliching lots and wounding game.

- hunter believes he NEEDS premium bullets to kill deer, elk, etc. Because he doesn't reload, and can't afford too many shells at $49 box 20, he doesn't practice much, hence he ends up wounding game.

I would argue the above 2 scenarios result in far more wounded game than a failure from a "standard" bullet ever has.

I don't live in the USA John.
Where I live, premium bullets are considerably more expensive.

[ 08-08-2003, 17:42: Message edited by: Johnny Ringo ]

Gentleman,

Here are a few of the Barnes X bullets we have recovered from game animals.





As you can see, some have expanded in the classical style, some lost their petals, and some had their petals turned inwards, and not opening at all.

Of course, none of these variations stopped them doing thier job.

papa, obviously both deer were taken so I will ask the classic question: At what point in the DEAD deer(s) did the bullet fail? ALL bullets have an optimum performance window. I hardly think the winchester silvertip was designed so its optimum performance window was at 15yds at 7mag velocity. By the same token, I daresay a Grand Slam probably wouldn't have opened up at that range. Does that mean the Grand Slam failed??? I've shot mulies, pretty big ones, with 200gr Grand Slams from a 300WM and had them pencil thru the deer with little expansion. Having hit no major bones. Had the bullet failed? I didn't think so. They were just a little hard for the job at hand so you had to be a bit careful with your shot placment. When I'd travel west on combination hunts, goats, deer, elk, I'd work up one load and use it for everything.
FYI: I would hope that at 15 yards you weren't worrying about a pass thru shot so you'd have a blood trail to follow.

J-Ringo,
I think we have both made some very valid points about why animals are lost. Hunter error is the largest part of the equation, no doubt of that. And yes, I agree that a Fail Safe isn't truly needed for deer, I said that long ago in this thread. BUT, I'd choose a Fail Safe any day of the week over any conventional cup/core bullet.
From my perspective it just makes sense and cents to use the very best bullet I can buy for the job at hand. Obviously your location in the world precludes you from getting Swifts at the prices I quoted, but I'd pay $2.00 a bullet for a box if that is what I considered to be the best bullet for the hunt I was going on. I wouldn't practice with them, but would work up a good load and then save the rest for hunting. If you have to travel far and spend a good bit of money to even make a hunt it only makes sense to come prepared, both in ability to make the shot necessary as well as using a bullet that will deliver the goods...good angle or bad, up close or from 300yds.

Johnny R, you are picking one of the most expensive premium bullets to talk about and compare. If we stick to the failsafe, they can be had for under $1 each. Partitions come even cheaper. As to failure. I eluded to this earlier, but I have had great success with conventional bullets on deer in the past. However, I have seen them fail miserably and have decided not to use them on game again. Both were using the 280 remington (hardly a super magnum at extreme velocities) and cup and core 140 gr bullets of different manufacture. One came apart on a mule deer bucks rib with penetration of about 1" (that is generous) and another was between the shoulders of a medium sized black bear going uphill and away. Penetration on this animal might have been 2". Both animals were shot at around the 100yd mark. Luckily quick follow up shots settled the score. I have also seen the bonded Scirocco (150 gr) fail to penetrate the shoulder of a moose with the same caliber and in contrast the same rifle with 140gr barnes X successfuly penetrated and exited a good sized black bear lengthways breaking bone at both ends and doing tremendous damage in between.

I guess it will be premiums for me.

Chuck

Johnny:

If premiums are that much more where you live, how is it that Hornady's aren't porportionally more expensive also?

For the record, the numbers are as follows at Midway:

Nosler 180 partition 46 cents
Hornady 180 bt 17 cents
Failsafe 180 60 cents
Swift A frame 180 86 cents

All of the above are for 30 cals.

Tell me one thing, is it all about the price difference? If so, I know a couple of people who do Amway, they could hook you up to make some extra $$$ in your spare time

Try to make a case based on performance........Oh wait, there isn't one.

As to the Federal issue, I'll do some more research on that. The person I talked to first wouldn't release the numbers unless I was a direct buying dealer. The only way I got an answer at all was to call back several times and work my way up the food chain so to speak. The 90/10 figure sounds rather high to me, but the 50/50 figure doesn't sound quite right either. I'll hit up one of the direct dealers I know and ask him, just to be sure. And yes, I am aware that some of Fed's premium ammo is loaded with cup bullets. Seems like a confliction in terms.

Finally as to performance on game: do you think you might ever need more than 14" of penetration? I do and have needed more. Unless you go very heavy for caliber, cup bullets won't give you that reliably.

As to bullet failure and life in general:
the wise learn from the mistakes of others
the average learn from their own mistakes
the fools never learn

sdgunslinger:

What 30 cal 150 grain non/bonded cup bullet can you recommend to "take a deer from any angle"? Just wondering.

Gabe

Beemanbeme:

If the Grand Slam wouldn't open at that high speed, it won't open at all. As I believe you know, expanding bullets open MORE as the velocity is increased. And yes, if it doesn't open, then it failed. Expanding bullets, in my opinion, must both expand to substantially greater than bore diameter and penetrate to the vitals to be said to have worked. By that definition, the two Winchester bullets I mentioned above met the standard of acceptable performance.

The reason I wouldn't dream of using those bullets on a hunt is that they failed to penetrate more than 10" with relatively light resistance. If a man using those bullets were presented with a raking shot, he'd have to turn it down. They couldn't be counted on to make it to the vitals, let alone exit for the benefit of a blood trail.

Cup bullets are better dug out of the sand behind the backstop than meat. For that they are the best choice.

Gabe

John S, and Chuck:

Very valid points in both of your posts. On elk/moose
I can go with premiums. Deer???? At 250 pounds, I just can't see them being heavy boned enough to need a premium. And my experience to date, has been if I use heavy for caliber bullets (and I do) like 180 gr in 30.06, standard bullets have never caused me to lose a deer. Nor have I ever seen a deer lost due to bullet failure. What I have seen is 180 gr bullets exit 95% of the time, at all ranges, break both shoulders and exit, etc.

So, I have no real reason to spend any extra $ on high dollar bullets for deer.

Your experience may differ, and like that Chuck offered up, I'd love to hear it. Perhaps if I "saw" more failures, I'd reconsider.

Papschmud,

You asked why the Hornady's are not proportionally more expensive???

I'm not sure.

Here are some sources that are available to me.

www.wholesalesports.com

www.russellsports.com

[ 08-09-2003, 12:48: Message edited by: Johnny Ringo ]

Johnny:

Complexity to manufacture. Look at the A frame and the Partition, you need to seat two cores. The A frame has the additonal bonding step. Heck, those two are simple compared to the Failsafe or the Partition Gold.

About ten years ago I was speaking to the Nosler rep for our area and he said that the Partition was their least profitable line.

Gabe

Well, thenI guess you've answered your own question about why Hornady's are not proportionally more expensive.

[ 08-09-2003, 12:45: Message edited by: Johnny Ringo ]

That wasn't the point. You said Failsafes were $1. Midway sells them for 60 cents. They also sell Hornadys for 17 cents. You mentioned that your Hornadys cost 23 cents where you buy them. You pay 35% more for Hornadys in your country. At that rate your should be paying 81 cents for the failsafes and not $1. That was my queston.

Gabe

Only my local retailers have the answer to that........

as far as making a case based on performance..........180 grain Core-locks, Hornadys,
etc have given me an exit 95% of the time, and a dropped deer, or short tracking job. So whether the Fail-safes are 81 cents, 85 cents or $1.02 doesn't really matter, as standard bullets have worked so well for me on deer.

Do I think I'll ever need more than 14" penetration?? No, not on a deer.

The shots I take would never require that I pass through more than 14" of deer.

Chuck,

I'd be curious to know the brand, style of the two bullets you listed that gave such poor results.

Since the bullets I am using are a heavier weight,with a slower velocity (at least 300 fps)
and a heavier jacket, than the 140 gr at 3000fps you used, perhaps that is why I've had such good luck with them.

I'd still like to know the brand of the ones you had trouble with.

[ 08-09-2003, 14:29: Message edited by: Johnny Ringo ]

Oh by the way,

thanks for the offer of hooking me up with some of your Amway friends. I think I'll pass.

papa........why limit yourselve to one of the poorer selections?? But it would be OK if you are hunting open country where longer shots are the rule and used out of a standard cartridges such as 06 or smaller .

With a good 180 gr such as an Inter-lock , Hot-core , or Core-Lock out of an 06 or .308 , you bet I would feel just fine , unless you feel the need to shoot them right up the ass.....and it will put them on the ground from that angle too........if you are marksman enough to hit the spine .

I have mostly used the 160 gr Speer spitzer out of a 7mm mag at about 3000fps . Never had a deer or lope stop one yet, so I don't have any recovered bullets to show off . From 50 to 350 yards , that bullet will go thru deer like swiss cheese , including quartering shots thru the shoulder , and it is not too hard on the chops either.....

Use premeums if you like , but in most cases they get you absolutely no advantage for 200 lb animals......no , cup core bullets are not yet obsolete......maybe we all should be using match-kings....the match-hunters claim they work great from 3300 fps to 1200 fps.......

[ 08-09-2003, 17:32: Message edited by: sdgunslinger ]

My point on the grand slam was that there wasn't enough body mass and resistance to cause the bullet to expand. Had I shot the deer(s) thru the shoulders, I am sure the bullet would have expanded normally. This isn't a real problem if one is a *****serious***** hunter and choices his shots well and is practiced enough to make them. However, if one wants to blast away "from any angle", I can see where it would present a problem. Once again, like with magnum rifles, folks are trying to let technology compensate for their lack of practice and ability. Premium bullets will not compensate for a bad hit nor do they let you just arkansas away at an animal hoping to get lucky.

Johnny:

No Amway for me either, The Amway buisness model works for Amway and no one else, especially not the customer.

sdgunslinger:

A 150 30. cal is not a bad choice in a premium but it can be in a cup bullet pushed too fast. The Matchking might just be the answer, it's much cheaper than these Partitions and as we all know, they work every time.

Beemanbeme:

Are you implying that raking and steep angle shots are unethical? As I stated earlier, no one with any knowledge believes that premiums expand the kill zone. They just allow you to reach it. If reaching the kill zone means that I "blast away", then blast away I will. One well aimed and deliverd shot at a time.

Gabe

Papa,
Now THAT we agree on. If I WERE going to use a premium on deer in my 30.06, it WOULD be a 150 grainer......because my fear would be that the 180 gr would be TOO tough at that velocity. The 150's would probably work well.

Conversely, talking conventional bullets, the opposite applies. I'd go 180 gr at 2700 fps rather than 150 gr at 2900 fps, as I'd have more confidence in the slower, heavier, thicker jacketed bullet.

Amen to that

Chuck Nelson, can you reply????

140 grain ballistic tip on the deer and 145 grain speer hot core on the bear. The BT couldn't make it through a rib and the Hot Core didn't penetrate the backbone.

Chuck

Thanks Chuck.

For me, the super premiums are best used for larger game, i.e. over 1000 lbs or if you are using a caliber that is at the low side of the margin for the game you are hunting. For example, a .25 cal for elk. The other place that they make sense is in a magnum cartridge where the shot could be close or far, like the deer shots described at 15 and 20 yards. But for all the other hunting, I have had good results with both standard bullets and premiums, like the Partition and Speer Grandslam. I also have used the Trophy Bonded quite a bit and find it softer than the super premiums, it seems to open faster with quicker kills on smaller animals I would agree with Allen that they also make sense for the "one gun hunter" going from small to large game with the same cartridge.

[ 08-16-2003, 21:06: Message edited by: duckster ]