THE ACCURATERELOADING.COM AMERICAN BIG GAME HUNTING FORUMS

Accuratereloading.com    The Accurate Reloading Forums    THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS  Hop To Forum Categories  Hunting  Hop To Forums  American Big Game Hunting    Outfitter Alerty----Beware of Todd Rice, Sonoran Outfitters
Page 1 2 

Moderators: Canuck
Go
New
Find
Notify
Tools
Reply
  
Outfitter Alerty----Beware of Todd Rice, Sonoran Outfitters
 Login/Join
 
One of Us
posted Hide Post
This is the type of shit that gives the Animal Rights people more words to spread out about how bad hunting is and what jerks American hunters are.
 
Posts: 205 | Registered: 09 September 2006Reply With Quote
one of us
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by drummondlindsey:
http://youtu.be/WkCHv1biQBI


UNREAL!


No kidding; but it reminds me of one hunt I bought from an AR booking agent telling me the avg deer was 180...never saw anything close and was told by the guide the agent over sold the hunt.


Don't Ever Book a Hunt with Jeff Blair
http://forums.accuratereloadin...821061151#2821061151

 
Posts: 7570 | Location: Arizona and off grid in CO | Registered: 28 July 2004Reply With Quote
One of Us
posted Hide Post
Like Topgun said the law has two parts.

Part 1 - Under the Lacey Act, it is unlawful to import, export, sell, acquire, or purchase fish, wildlife or plants that are taken, possessed, transported, or sold:

And

Part 2 - 1) in violation of U.S. or Indian law, or 2) in interstate or foreign commerce involving any fish, wildlife, or plants taken possessed or sold in violation of State or foreign law

You have to “break” both parts for the gov to file charges. Not just Part 2.
 
Posts: 396 | Location: CA | Registered: 23 October 2007Reply With Quote
One of Us
posted Hide Post
If you're back at home in the US, and you dont have the animal, it would be pretty hard to find you guilty of breaking the Lacey Act.
 
Posts: 396 | Location: CA | Registered: 23 October 2007Reply With Quote
One of Us
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by CA Safari Hunter:
If you're back at home in the US, and you dont have the animal, it would be pretty hard to find you guilty of breaking the Lacey Act.



That's exactly why no Prosecutor would ever charge someone without the actual evidence on hand in what we are talking about. Who and what could the USFWS present as evidence to show that any US or foreign law was broken? Any decent defense lawyer would hand them their ass on a platter!
 
Posts: 1576 | Registered: 16 March 2011Reply With Quote
one of us
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by CA Safari Hunter:
Like Topgun said the law has two parts.

Part 1 - Under the Lacey Act, it is unlawful to import, export, sell, acquire, or purchase fish, wildlife or plants that are taken, possessed, transported, or sold:

And

Part 2 - 1) in violation of U.S. or Indian law, or 2) in interstate or foreign commerce involving any fish, wildlife, or plants taken possessed or sold in violation of State or foreign law

You have to “break” both parts for the gov to file charges. Not just Part 2.


It says "or" not "and"......so much for your 2 part theory.


xxxxxxxxxx
When considering US based operations of guides/outfitters, check and see if they are NRA members. If not, why support someone who doesn't support us? Consider spending your money elsewhere.

NEVER, EVER book a hunt with BLAIR WORLDWIDE HUNTING or JEFF BLAIR.

I have come to understand that in hunting, the goal is not the goal but the process.
 
Posts: 17099 | Location: Texas USA | Registered: 07 May 2001Reply With Quote
One of Us
posted Hide Post
Gatogordo---He did not say it said "and". He only used "and" to connect the two parts together the way the statute is written in order to be a violation. You misread his statement just like you are misreading the Act!You need to slow down and when you read the Act again look at the punctuation used because in a law punctuation is a critical factor along with little words like "and" and "or" in what it says and how it can be legally enforced. After 30+ years in several LE positions with the state of MI, I can certainly read and intrepret what the Act says and it doesn't say a person can be brought up on charges for violation of foreign law UNLESS the animal or parts are brought back or attempted to be brought back into the US. It is a law that strictly involves commerce into the US from foreign countries or interstate commerce where a law has been violated and the animal or parts are then taken across state lines. If Rice had committed any Lacey Act violations that the USFWS could get him on, you can bet your ass that they would have hauled him in, especially if he's back here still doing business at the DSC Convention and they wouldn't have even needed to file extradition paperwork with Mexico to do it!

Below is the exact statute C/Pd from the USFWS government website regarding the Act and then specifies what it's intent is with the last two lines in the final paragraph being key in showing that I'm correct in analysis of the Act:

Under the Lacey Act, it is unlawful to import, export, sell, acquire, or purchase fish, wildlife or plants that are taken, possessed, transported, or sold: 1) in violation of U.S. or Indian law, or 2) in interstate or foreign commerce involving any fish, wildlife, or plants taken possessed or sold in violation of State or foreign law.

The law covers all fish and wildlife and their parts or products, plants protected by the Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species of Wild Fauna and Flora (CITES) and those protected by State law. Commercial guiding and outfitting are considered to be a sale under the provisions of the Act.

In 2008, the Lacey Act was amended to include a wider variety of prohibited plants and plant products, including made illegally logged woods, for import.

When the Lacey Act was passed in 1900, it became the first federal law protecting wildlife. It enforces civil and criminal penalties for the illegal trade of animals and plants. Today it regulates the import of any species protected by international or domestic law and prevents the spread of invasive, or non-native, species.
 
Posts: 1576 | Registered: 16 March 2011Reply With Quote
One of Us
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Gatogordo:
quote:
Originally posted by CA Safari Hunter:
Like Topgun said the law has two parts.

Part 1 - Under the Lacey Act, it is unlawful to import, export, sell, acquire, or purchase fish, wildlife or plants that are taken, possessed, transported, or sold:

And

Part 2 - 1) in violation of U.S. or Indian law, or 2) in interstate or foreign commerce involving any fish, wildlife, or plants taken possessed or sold in violation of State or foreign law

You have to “break” both parts for the gov to file charges. Not just Part 2.


It says "or" not "and"......so much for your 2 part theory.


You're reading it wrong. Part 1 is whole. Part 2 has two parts. Part 1 is importing/selling/buying/acquiring AND Part 2 is either by violating Us or Indian Law OR foreign country law.

You have to read the whole thing, not just pick parts of it that match what you want. Its pretty simple.....
 
Posts: 396 | Location: CA | Registered: 23 October 2007Reply With Quote
one of us
posted Hide Post
It is pretty simple which is why I am amazed that it seems so obscure to you.

Part 1) "Acquire", as in kill after hunting, which would also involve taking and possesion too....

Part 2) "in violation of State or foreign law".....pretty clear there

It is specifically NOT limited to import or export as is CLEARLY stated in the first sentence, Part 1.


xxxxxxxxxx
When considering US based operations of guides/outfitters, check and see if they are NRA members. If not, why support someone who doesn't support us? Consider spending your money elsewhere.

NEVER, EVER book a hunt with BLAIR WORLDWIDE HUNTING or JEFF BLAIR.

I have come to understand that in hunting, the goal is not the goal but the process.
 
Posts: 17099 | Location: Texas USA | Registered: 07 May 2001Reply With Quote
One of Us
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Gatogordo:
It is pretty simple which is why I am amazed that it seems so obscure to you.

Part 1) "Acquire", as in kill after hunting, which would also involve taking and possesion too....

Part 2) "in violation of State or foreign law".....pretty clear there

It is specifically NOT limited to import or export as is CLEARLY stated in the first sentence, Part 1.



***You have just made a post that makes absolutely no sense if you knew how to read and comprehend simple English and punctuation like we are both trying to explain to you. You do know what punctuation is, don't you? The Act says first you have to do something contrary to Part 1 and then it has to be in violation of something in Part 2, thus the "or" as far as whether it's an international violation from one country to another OR for interstate commerce across states lines in the US to be a punishable offense under the Act. The common definition of the word "acquire" in every dictionary I have in the house is: "to gain possession of something", which is also right in your statement. Where did the hunter gain possession of anything? Answer---He didn't because Rice still has it in Mexico or it's in someone else's possession down there. The whole thread is discussing him not having the head and trying to gain posssession of it and then finding out that Rice lacks a proper tag for it and, therefore, cannot export it out of Mexico and import it into the US so the hunter that paid him can "take possession" of it? What do you not understand? If what you say is true, the US authorities could arrest anyone for anything they say they did illegally in another country under the Lacey Act with no absolutely no proof to get a conviction. Show me one case where USFWS has ever prosecuted a person under the Act where that was done and you win the debate. Until then you may want to learn how to read sentence structure and how things written in black and white are enforced, rather than how you just think it is! The USFWS site itself that I quoted says exactly what the Act is used for or did you not read that in my post like I asked?! Here it is again. Please read it slowly and note that it talks about illegal trade (Part 1 in the act) and import of same (Part 2 in the act):

When the Lacey Act was passed in 1900, it became the first federal law protecting wildlife. It enforces civil and criminal penalties for the illegal trade of animals and plants. Today it regulates the import of any species protected by international or domestic law and prevents the spread of invasive, or non-native, species
 
Posts: 1576 | Registered: 16 March 2011Reply With Quote
One of Us
posted Hide Post
Topgun – This guy will not listen, or he just does not understand. He will just pick parts of a sentence that fit whatever he wants. Whatever else is in there doesn’t matter. I hope this guy doesn’t try to follow a cooking recipe. He'll go from number 1 to number 8 and leave everything else out, because it doesnt matter..... add a cup of sugar and bake at 350 for 20 min.....
 
Posts: 396 | Location: CA | Registered: 23 October 2007Reply With Quote
One of Us
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by CA Safari Hunter:
Topgun – This guy will not listen, or he just does not understand. He will just pick parts of a sentence that fit whatever he wants. Whatever else is in there doesn’t matter. I hope this guy doesn’t try to follow a cooking recipe. He'll go from number 1 to number 8 and leave everything else out, because it doesnt matter..... add a cup of sugar and bake at 350 for 20 min.....



That's funnier that shit and a very appropriate anology under the circumstances, LOL! killpc
 
Posts: 1576 | Registered: 16 March 2011Reply With Quote
one of us
posted Hide Post
quote:
United States v. Fejes
232 F.3d 696 (9th Cir. 2000)

The Ninth Circuit affirmed James Fejes's conviction in federal district court for conspiracy to violate the Lacey Act[1] and two substantive violations of the Lacey Act. The appellate court held that a "sale" of wildlife under the Lacey Act includes the agreement to provide guide or outfitting services, as well as the actual provision of such services. The court also held that the district court did not commit error in its jury instructions.

Fejes, a licensed hunting guide in Alaska, took two out-of-state hunters, McNeely and Doyle, on a guided caribou hunt in a remote area of Alaska. Fejes dropped off McNeely, Doyle, and the rest of the hunting party at a remote camp and flew to another location. With Fejes gone, Morgan, a hunting guide employed by Fejes, guided McNeely and Doyle on a caribou hunt. Doyle shot and killed a caribou in violation of an Alaska statute prohibiting hunting on the same day that a hunter is airborne.[2] Upon their return to camp, Morgan informed Fejes of the caribou kill, and Fejes later testified that he recognized the illegality of the kill. Two days later, Fejes took McNeely in an airplane to spot caribou from the air. After sighting a caribou, they landed, and within a few minutes McNeely shot and killed a caribou in violation of the same Alaska statute. Although Fejes later testified that he expected McNeely and his accompanying cameraman only to film the caribou and not to kill it, McNeely and the cameraman offered contradictory testimony. Furthermore, Fejes and McNeely posed for a picture by standing over the caribou with their thumbs up. After the group broke camp, McNeely and Doyle returned to their home states and none of the hunting party informed the authorities of the illegal kills.

Fejes went to trial and a jury convicted him of a felony conspiracy to violate the Lacey Act and felony violations of the Lacey Act. He was sentenced to six months and one day in prison and fined five thousand dollars. He filed a timely appeal of his conviction and on appeal, argued that the district court made several reversible errors and that his conviction should be overturned.

The Lacey Act prohibits the transport, sale, or purchase "in interstate commerce [of] any fish or wildlife taken, possessed, transported, or sold in violation of any law or regulation of any State."[3] Under the statute, the "sale of wildlife" includes offering or providing "guiding, outfitting, or other services . . . for the illegal taking, acquiring, receiving, transporting, or possessing of fish and wildlife."[4] A defendant is subject to felony penalties if he "knowingly" engages in conduct that involves the sale of wildlife with a market value over $350.[5]

Fejes asserted that he did not violate the Lacey Act because McNeely and Doyle killed the caribou in violation of state law after he agreed to act as their guide. He claimed that under a plain reading of the statutory language, felony liability under the Lacey Act is limited to cases where the defendant knew that the wildlife were taken illegally, prior to selling or purchasing the wildlife. As a result, Fejes argued, he was not subject to felony liability because he "sold" his services by agreeing to act as a guide, prior to the illegal kills.

The Ninth Circuit agreed that to be subject to felony liability, a defendant must know the wildlife was taken illegally before he sold or purchased the wildlife. However, the court concluded that the provision of guide services constitutes a "sale" and therefore the provision of guide services by Fejes during the illegal hunts subjected him to the criminal enforcement provisions of the Lacey Act. The court found support for its interpretation in the legislative history of the Act and in the potentially absurd results under Fejes's construction. The court determined that a "sale" under the Lacey Act includes both an agreement to provide guide services and the provision of such services. In addition, because the court held that the statutory language was unambiguous, Fejes was unable to invoke the doctrine of lenity.

Fejes also argued that the district court erred in several of its jury instructions. First, Fejes contended the district court misstated the elements of the crime by instructing the jury that "felony liability could be imposed for either the transportation or sale of wildlife taken in violation of state law."[6] He argued that this jury instruction allowed the jury to substitute "transport" for "sale" as the underlying criminal conduct under the statute. The Ninth Circuit determined that the district court properly instructed the jury on this point. The instructions correctly informed the jury that to convict the defendant they must find that he sold or purchased the caribou, and they must also find an underlying violation, "namely that Fejes knowingly sold or transported the caribou in interstate commerce."[7] Fejes next argued that the district court failed to instruct the jury that it must unanimously agree as to the manner in which Fejes violated the Lacey Act. The court held that in light of the general rule that a unanimity instruction is not necessary, there was no plain error because Fejes failed to show that a special instruction was necessary due to the complexity of the facts.

Fejes also maintained that the district court committed error by refusing to instruct the jury that he could transport the dead caribou from the field under Alaska law in order to salvage and surrender it to state authorities.[8] Previous Ninth Circuit opinions have recognized that a defendant is entitled to a jury instruction regarding the theory of his defense as long as it is supported in law and has a foundation in the evidence.[9] After examining the evidence, the Ninth Circuit determined that Fejes's proposed instruction was not supported by evidence in the record. The record contained uncontested evidence that Fejes "sold" the caribou in interstate commerce. Although Alaska law does allow a person to transport illegally killed wildlife for the purpose of salvaging the wildlife and surrendering it to state authorities, the record contained no foundation for the jury to conclude that the sale did not involve interstate commerce.

Fejes next contended that the district court should have instructed the jury on "lesser included misdemeanor violations of the Lacey Act."[10] The Ninth Circuit held that the district court did not commit error because Fejes could not show that the jury could reasonably conclude that he was guilty of the lesser offense and not the greater. Fejes did not dispute that he sold guide services that were worth over $350, so there was no evidence on which the jury could reasonably determine that he was not guilty of the felony offense. Finally, Fejes argued that the district court erred by instructing the jury that it could use the value of Fejes's guide services to determine the market value of the caribou. The court quickly rejected this argument, citing a previous case that concluded the value of an animal "sold" under the Lacey Act is "best represented by the amount the hunter is willing to pay for the opportunity to participate in the hunt."[11]

[1] Lacey Act Amendments of 1981, 16 U.S.C. §§ 667e, 1540, 3371-3378; 18 U.S.C. §§ 42-44, 3054, 3112 (1994 & Supp. V 1999).

[2] Alaska Admin. Code tit. 5, § 92.085(8) (2000) (Unlawful Methods of Taking Big Game; Exceptions).

[3] 16 U.S.C. § 3372(a)(2)(A) (1994).

[4] Id. § 3372(c)(1).

[5] Id. § 3373(d)(1)(B).

[6] United States v. Fejes, 232 F.3d 696, 701 (9th Cir. 2000).

[7] Id. at 702.

[8] Alaska Admin. Code tit. 5, § 92.140(d) (2000).

[9] United States v. Duran, 59 F.3d 938, 941 (9th Cir. 1995).

[10] 232 F.3d at 703

[11] United States v. Atkinson, 966 F.2d 1270, 1273 (9th Cir. 1992).


xxxxxxxxxx
When considering US based operations of guides/outfitters, check and see if they are NRA members. If not, why support someone who doesn't support us? Consider spending your money elsewhere.

NEVER, EVER book a hunt with BLAIR WORLDWIDE HUNTING or JEFF BLAIR.

I have come to understand that in hunting, the goal is not the goal but the process.
 
Posts: 17099 | Location: Texas USA | Registered: 07 May 2001Reply With Quote
One of Us
Picture of drummondlindsey
posted Hide Post
I don't know if it would or wouldn't apply to this scenario but it doesn't matter IMO. The focus needs to be on who and what to avoid and why and shouldn't be about the interpretation of a particular law. It's been stated on another forum that the hunter has talked to the Mexican government about this
 
Posts: 2092 | Location: Windsor, CO | Registered: 06 December 2005Reply With Quote
One of Us
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Gatogordo:
quote:
United States v. Fejes
232 F.3d 696 (9th Cir. 2000)

The Ninth Circuit affirmed James Fejes's conviction in federal district court for conspiracy to violate the Lacey Act[1] and two substantive violations of the Lacey Act. The appellate court held that a "sale" of wildlife under the Lacey Act includes the agreement to provide guide or outfitting services, as well as the actual provision of such services. The court also held that the district court did not commit error in its jury instructions.

Fejes, a licensed hunting guide in Alaska, took two out-of-state hunters, McNeely and Doyle, on a guided caribou hunt in a remote area of Alaska. Fejes dropped off McNeely, Doyle, and the rest of the hunting party at a remote camp and flew to another location. With Fejes gone, Morgan, a hunting guide employed by Fejes, guided McNeely and Doyle on a caribou hunt. Doyle shot and killed a caribou in violation of an Alaska statute prohibiting hunting on the same day that a hunter is airborne.[2] Upon their return to camp, Morgan informed Fejes of the caribou kill, and Fejes later testified that he recognized the illegality of the kill. Two days later, Fejes took McNeely in an airplane to spot caribou from the air. After sighting a caribou, they landed, and within a few minutes McNeely shot and killed a caribou in violation of the same Alaska statute. Although Fejes later testified that he expected McNeely and his accompanying cameraman only to film the caribou and not to kill it, McNeely and the cameraman offered contradictory testimony. Furthermore, Fejes and McNeely posed for a picture by standing over the caribou with their thumbs up. After the group broke camp, McNeely and Doyle returned to their home states and none of the hunting party informed the authorities of the illegal kills.

Fejes went to trial and a jury convicted him of a felony conspiracy to violate the Lacey Act and felony violations of the Lacey Act. He was sentenced to six months and one day in prison and fined five thousand dollars. He filed a timely appeal of his conviction and on appeal, argued that the district court made several reversible errors and that his conviction should be overturned.

The Lacey Act prohibits the transport, sale, or purchase "in interstate commerce [of] any fish or wildlife taken, possessed, transported, or sold in violation of any law or regulation of any State."[3] Under the statute, the "sale of wildlife" includes offering or providing "guiding, outfitting, or other services . . . for the illegal taking, acquiring, receiving, transporting, or possessing of fish and wildlife."[4] A defendant is subject to felony penalties if he "knowingly" engages in conduct that involves the sale of wildlife with a market value over $350.[5]

Fejes asserted that he did not violate the Lacey Act because McNeely and Doyle killed the caribou in violation of state law after he agreed to act as their guide. He claimed that under a plain reading of the statutory language, felony liability under the Lacey Act is limited to cases where the defendant knew that the wildlife were taken illegally, prior to selling or purchasing the wildlife. As a result, Fejes argued, he was not subject to felony liability because he "sold" his services by agreeing to act as a guide, prior to the illegal kills.

The Ninth Circuit agreed that to be subject to felony liability, a defendant must know the wildlife was taken illegally before he sold or purchased the wildlife. However, the court concluded that the provision of guide services constitutes a "sale" and therefore the provision of guide services by Fejes during the illegal hunts subjected him to the criminal enforcement provisions of the Lacey Act. The court found support for its interpretation in the legislative history of the Act and in the potentially absurd results under Fejes's construction. The court determined that a "sale" under the Lacey Act includes both an agreement to provide guide services and the provision of such services. In addition, because the court held that the statutory language was unambiguous, Fejes was unable to invoke the doctrine of lenity.

Fejes also argued that the district court erred in several of its jury instructions. First, Fejes contended the district court misstated the elements of the crime by instructing the jury that "felony liability could be imposed for either the transportation or sale of wildlife taken in violation of state law."[6] He argued that this jury instruction allowed the jury to substitute "transport" for "sale" as the underlying criminal conduct under the statute. The Ninth Circuit determined that the district court properly instructed the jury on this point. The instructions correctly informed the jury that to convict the defendant they must find that he sold or purchased the caribou, and they must also find an underlying violation, "namely that Fejes knowingly sold or transported the caribou in interstate commerce."[7] Fejes next argued that the district court failed to instruct the jury that it must unanimously agree as to the manner in which Fejes violated the Lacey Act. The court held that in light of the general rule that a unanimity instruction is not necessary, there was no plain error because Fejes failed to show that a special instruction was necessary due to the complexity of the facts.

Fejes also maintained that the district court committed error by refusing to instruct the jury that he could transport the dead caribou from the field under Alaska law in order to salvage and surrender it to state authorities.[8] Previous Ninth Circuit opinions have recognized that a defendant is entitled to a jury instruction regarding the theory of his defense as long as it is supported in law and has a foundation in the evidence.[9] After examining the evidence, the Ninth Circuit determined that Fejes's proposed instruction was not supported by evidence in the record. The record contained uncontested evidence that Fejes "sold" the caribou in interstate commerce. Although Alaska law does allow a person to transport illegally killed wildlife for the purpose of salvaging the wildlife and surrendering it to state authorities, the record contained no foundation for the jury to conclude that the sale did not involve interstate commerce.

Fejes next contended that the district court should have instructed the jury on "lesser included misdemeanor violations of the Lacey Act."[10] The Ninth Circuit held that the district court did not commit error because Fejes could not show that the jury could reasonably conclude that he was guilty of the lesser offense and not the greater. Fejes did not dispute that he sold guide services that were worth over $350, so there was no evidence on which the jury could reasonably determine that he was not guilty of the felony offense. Finally, Fejes argued that the district court erred by instructing the jury that it could use the value of Fejes's guide services to determine the market value of the caribou. The court quickly rejected this argument, citing a previous case that concluded the value of an animal "sold" under the Lacey Act is "best represented by the amount the hunter is willing to pay for the opportunity to participate in the hunt."[11]

[1] Lacey Act Amendments of 1981, 16 U.S.C. §§ 667e, 1540, 3371-3378; 18 U.S.C. §§ 42-44, 3054, 3112 (1994 & Supp. V 1999).

[2] Alaska Admin. Code tit. 5, § 92.085(8) (2000) (Unlawful Methods of Taking Big Game; Exceptions).

[3] 16 U.S.C. § 3372(a)(2)(A) (1994).

[4] Id. § 3372(c)(1).

[5] Id. § 3373(d)(1)(B).

[6] United States v. Fejes, 232 F.3d 696, 701 (9th Cir. 2000).

[7] Id. at 702.

[8] Alaska Admin. Code tit. 5, § 92.140(d) (2000).

[9] United States v. Duran, 59 F.3d 938, 941 (9th Cir. 1995).

[10] 232 F.3d at 703

[11] United States v. Atkinson, 966 F.2d 1270, 1273 (9th Cir. 1992).



Gatogordo---You had better go back and slowly read that entire post you put up because there is not one thing in that case that doesn't support our side of what is being discussed. Read it closely and you will see that what we are saying is substantiated in that case since he did violate at least one of the provisions in Part 1 of the act (sale), as well as a violation of Part 2 (Interstate commerce)! You, Sir, really need some reading comprehension lessons of some sort to be involved in a debate of this sort! Just the one following sentence taken from your post is proof that we are correct in our analysis of the intent of the Act and that is: "Although Alaska law does allow a person to transport illegally killed wildlife for the purpose of salvaging the wildlife and surrendering it to state authorities, the record contained no foundation for the jury to conclude that the sale did not involve interstate commerce."

Now go find another case and I'll blow that one out of the water for you too, LOL!

PS: It would be interesting to know whether the offending hunter(s) were also prosecuted under the Act for their part in actually shooting the animals in violation of the Alaska requirement of a day between flying and hunting. Maybe when I have time I'll see if there is any record of that, but it could also be that they were given immunity for possibly providing their testimony in the outfitter case itself.
 
Posts: 1576 | Registered: 16 March 2011Reply With Quote
One of Us
posted Hide Post
The time spent arguing this issue could have been spent informing USF&W of this matter and let them decide if it is a problem.
 
Posts: 11954 | Location: Orlando, FL | Registered: 26 January 2006Reply With Quote
One of Us
Picture of drummondlindsey
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by larryshores:
The time spent arguing this issue could have been spent informing USF&W of this matter and let them decide if it is a problem.


From what I have been told they know. I just hope they do something with it
 
Posts: 2092 | Location: Windsor, CO | Registered: 06 December 2005Reply With Quote
One of Us
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by drummondlindsey:
quote:
Originally posted by larryshores:
The time spent arguing this issue could have been spent informing USF&W of this matter and let them decide if it is a problem.


From what I have been told they know. I just hope they do something with it


***According to what I have read in posts by friends of the hunter on another website, the hunter has contacted Mexican officials about the situation. Whether that has actually occurred is not known and would just be speculation, but I would hope he has and this guy Rice get nailed to the cross by Mexican Officials because I don't believe USFWS officials could touch him until he tried to import the illegally taken horns.
 
Posts: 1576 | Registered: 16 March 2011Reply With Quote
one of us
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Topgun 30-06:
quote:
Originally posted by Gatogordo:
quote:
United States v. Fejes
232 F.3d 696 (9th Cir. 2000)

The Ninth Circuit affirmed James Fejes's conviction in federal district court for conspiracy to violate the Lacey Act[1] and two substantive violations of the Lacey Act. The appellate court held that a "sale" of wildlife under the Lacey Act includes the agreement to provide guide or outfitting services, as well as the actual provision of such services. The court also held that the district court did not commit error in its jury instructions.

Fejes, a licensed hunting guide in Alaska, took two out-of-state hunters, McNeely and Doyle, on a guided caribou hunt in a remote area of Alaska. Fejes dropped off McNeely, Doyle, and the rest of the hunting party at a remote camp and flew to another location. With Fejes gone, Morgan, a hunting guide employed by Fejes, guided McNeely and Doyle on a caribou hunt. Doyle shot and killed a caribou in violation of an Alaska statute prohibiting hunting on the same day that a hunter is airborne.[2] Upon their return to camp, Morgan informed Fejes of the caribou kill, and Fejes later testified that he recognized the illegality of the kill. Two days later, Fejes took McNeely in an airplane to spot caribou from the air. After sighting a caribou, they landed, and within a few minutes McNeely shot and killed a caribou in violation of the same Alaska statute. Although Fejes later testified that he expected McNeely and his accompanying cameraman only to film the caribou and not to kill it, McNeely and the cameraman offered contradictory testimony. Furthermore, Fejes and McNeely posed for a picture by standing over the caribou with their thumbs up. After the group broke camp, McNeely and Doyle returned to their home states and none of the hunting party informed the authorities of the illegal kills.

Fejes went to trial and a jury convicted him of a felony conspiracy to violate the Lacey Act and felony violations of the Lacey Act. He was sentenced to six months and one day in prison and fined five thousand dollars. He filed a timely appeal of his conviction and on appeal, argued that the district court made several reversible errors and that his conviction should be overturned.

The Lacey Act prohibits the transport, sale, or purchase "in interstate commerce [of] any fish or wildlife taken, possessed, transported, or sold in violation of any law or regulation of any State."[3] Under the statute, the "sale of wildlife" includes offering or providing "guiding, outfitting, or other services . . . for the illegal taking, acquiring, receiving, transporting, or possessing of fish and wildlife."[4] A defendant is subject to felony penalties if he "knowingly" engages in conduct that involves the sale of wildlife with a market value over $350.[5]

Fejes asserted that he did not violate the Lacey Act because McNeely and Doyle killed the caribou in violation of state law after he agreed to act as their guide. He claimed that under a plain reading of the statutory language, felony liability under the Lacey Act is limited to cases where the defendant knew that the wildlife were taken illegally, prior to selling or purchasing the wildlife. As a result, Fejes argued, he was not subject to felony liability because he "sold" his services by agreeing to act as a guide, prior to the illegal kills.

The Ninth Circuit agreed that to be subject to felony liability, a defendant must know the wildlife was taken illegally before he sold or purchased the wildlife. However, the court concluded that the provision of guide services constitutes a "sale" and therefore the provision of guide services by Fejes during the illegal hunts subjected him to the criminal enforcement provisions of the Lacey Act. The court found support for its interpretation in the legislative history of the Act and in the potentially absurd results under Fejes's construction. The court determined that a "sale" under the Lacey Act includes both an agreement to provide guide services and the provision of such services. In addition, because the court held that the statutory language was unambiguous, Fejes was unable to invoke the doctrine of lenity.

Fejes also argued that the district court erred in several of its jury instructions. First, Fejes contended the district court misstated the elements of the crime by instructing the jury that "felony liability could be imposed for either the transportation or sale of wildlife taken in violation of state law."[6] He argued that this jury instruction allowed the jury to substitute "transport" for "sale" as the underlying criminal conduct under the statute. The Ninth Circuit determined that the district court properly instructed the jury on this point. The instructions correctly informed the jury that to convict the defendant they must find that he sold or purchased the caribou, and they must also find an underlying violation, "namely that Fejes knowingly sold or transported the caribou in interstate commerce."[7] Fejes next argued that the district court failed to instruct the jury that it must unanimously agree as to the manner in which Fejes violated the Lacey Act. The court held that in light of the general rule that a unanimity instruction is not necessary, there was no plain error because Fejes failed to show that a special instruction was necessary due to the complexity of the facts.

Fejes also maintained that the district court committed error by refusing to instruct the jury that he could transport the dead caribou from the field under Alaska law in order to salvage and surrender it to state authorities.[8] Previous Ninth Circuit opinions have recognized that a defendant is entitled to a jury instruction regarding the theory of his defense as long as it is supported in law and has a foundation in the evidence.[9] After examining the evidence, the Ninth Circuit determined that Fejes's proposed instruction was not supported by evidence in the record. The record contained uncontested evidence that Fejes "sold" the caribou in interstate commerce. Although Alaska law does allow a person to transport illegally killed wildlife for the purpose of salvaging the wildlife and surrendering it to state authorities, the record contained no foundation for the jury to conclude that the sale did not involve interstate commerce.

Fejes next contended that the district court should have instructed the jury on "lesser included misdemeanor violations of the Lacey Act."[10] The Ninth Circuit held that the district court did not commit error because Fejes could not show that the jury could reasonably conclude that he was guilty of the lesser offense and not the greater. Fejes did not dispute that he sold guide services that were worth over $350, so there was no evidence on which the jury could reasonably determine that he was not guilty of the felony offense. Finally, Fejes argued that the district court erred by instructing the jury that it could use the value of Fejes's guide services to determine the market value of the caribou. The court quickly rejected this argument, citing a previous case that concluded the value of an animal "sold" under the Lacey Act is "best represented by the amount the hunter is willing to pay for the opportunity to participate in the hunt."[11]

[1] Lacey Act Amendments of 1981, 16 U.S.C. §§ 667e, 1540, 3371-3378; 18 U.S.C. §§ 42-44, 3054, 3112 (1994 & Supp. V 1999).

[2] Alaska Admin. Code tit. 5, § 92.085(8) (2000) (Unlawful Methods of Taking Big Game; Exceptions).

[3] 16 U.S.C. § 3372(a)(2)(A) (1994).

[4] Id. § 3372(c)(1).

[5] Id. § 3373(d)(1)(B).

[6] United States v. Fejes, 232 F.3d 696, 701 (9th Cir. 2000).

[7] Id. at 702.

[8] Alaska Admin. Code tit. 5, § 92.140(d) (2000).

[9] United States v. Duran, 59 F.3d 938, 941 (9th Cir. 1995).

[10] 232 F.3d at 703

[11] United States v. Atkinson, 966 F.2d 1270, 1273 (9th Cir. 1992).



Gatogordo---You had better go back and slowly read that entire post you put up because there is not one thing in that case that doesn't support our side of what is being discussed. Read it closely and you will see that what we are saying is substantiated in that case since he did violate at least one of the provisions in Part 1 of the act (sale), as well as a violation of Part 2 (Interstate commerce)! You, Sir, really need some reading comprehension lessons of some sort to be involved in a debate of this sort! Just the one following sentence taken from your post is proof that we are correct in our analysis of the intent of the Act and that is: "Although Alaska law does allow a person to transport illegally killed wildlife for the purpose of salvaging the wildlife and surrendering it to state authorities, the record contained no foundation for the jury to conclude that the sale did not involve interstate commerce."

Now go find another case and I'll blow that one out of the water for you too, LOL!

PS: It would be interesting to know whether the offending hunter(s) were also prosecuted under the Act for their part in actually shooting the animals in violation of the Alaska requirement of a day between flying and hunting. Maybe when I have time I'll see if there is any record of that, but it could also be that they were given immunity for possibly providing their testimony in the outfitter case itself.


I mean you really are slow. The GUIDE, who didn't shoot, and didn't have possesion of the caribou was prosecuted because his hunters broke Alaska's STATE game laws on a hunt he sold interstate.

Now, substitute Mexico for Alaska, foreign commerce for interstate commerce, and foreign laws for State, and you have a very similar situation. Really how plain does it have to be for you to understand something?


xxxxxxxxxx
When considering US based operations of guides/outfitters, check and see if they are NRA members. If not, why support someone who doesn't support us? Consider spending your money elsewhere.

NEVER, EVER book a hunt with BLAIR WORLDWIDE HUNTING or JEFF BLAIR.

I have come to understand that in hunting, the goal is not the goal but the process.
 
Posts: 17099 | Location: Texas USA | Registered: 07 May 2001Reply With Quote
One of Us
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Gatogordo:
quote:
Originally posted by Topgun 30-06:
quote:
Originally posted by Gatogordo:
quote:
United States v. Fejes
232 F.3d 696 (9th Cir. 2000)

The Ninth Circuit affirmed James Fejes's conviction in federal district court for conspiracy to violate the Lacey Act[1] and two substantive violations of the Lacey Act. The appellate court held that a "sale" of wildlife under the Lacey Act includes the agreement to provide guide or outfitting services, as well as the actual provision of such services. The court also held that the district court did not commit error in its jury instructions.

Fejes, a licensed hunting guide in Alaska, took two out-of-state hunters, McNeely and Doyle, on a guided caribou hunt in a remote area of Alaska. Fejes dropped off McNeely, Doyle, and the rest of the hunting party at a remote camp and flew to another location. With Fejes gone, Morgan, a hunting guide employed by Fejes, guided McNeely and Doyle on a caribou hunt. Doyle shot and killed a caribou in violation of an Alaska statute prohibiting hunting on the same day that a hunter is airborne.[2] Upon their return to camp, Morgan informed Fejes of the caribou kill, and Fejes later testified that he recognized the illegality of the kill. Two days later, Fejes took McNeely in an airplane to spot caribou from the air. After sighting a caribou, they landed, and within a few minutes McNeely shot and killed a caribou in violation of the same Alaska statute. Although Fejes later testified that he expected McNeely and his accompanying cameraman only to film the caribou and not to kill it, McNeely and the cameraman offered contradictory testimony. Furthermore, Fejes and McNeely posed for a picture by standing over the caribou with their thumbs up. After the group broke camp, McNeely and Doyle returned to their home states and none of the hunting party informed the authorities of the illegal kills.

Fejes went to trial and a jury convicted him of a felony conspiracy to violate the Lacey Act and felony violations of the Lacey Act. He was sentenced to six months and one day in prison and fined five thousand dollars. He filed a timely appeal of his conviction and on appeal, argued that the district court made several reversible errors and that his conviction should be overturned.

The Lacey Act prohibits the transport, sale, or purchase "in interstate commerce [of] any fish or wildlife taken, possessed, transported, or sold in violation of any law or regulation of any State."[3] Under the statute, the "sale of wildlife" includes offering or providing "guiding, outfitting, or other services . . . for the illegal taking, acquiring, receiving, transporting, or possessing of fish and wildlife."[4] A defendant is subject to felony penalties if he "knowingly" engages in conduct that involves the sale of wildlife with a market value over $350.[5]

Fejes asserted that he did not violate the Lacey Act because McNeely and Doyle killed the caribou in violation of state law after he agreed to act as their guide. He claimed that under a plain reading of the statutory language, felony liability under the Lacey Act is limited to cases where the defendant knew that the wildlife were taken illegally, prior to selling or purchasing the wildlife. As a result, Fejes argued, he was not subject to felony liability because he "sold" his services by agreeing to act as a guide, prior to the illegal kills.

The Ninth Circuit agreed that to be subject to felony liability, a defendant must know the wildlife was taken illegally before he sold or purchased the wildlife. However, the court concluded that the provision of guide services constitutes a "sale" and therefore the provision of guide services by Fejes during the illegal hunts subjected him to the criminal enforcement provisions of the Lacey Act. The court found support for its interpretation in the legislative history of the Act and in the potentially absurd results under Fejes's construction. The court determined that a "sale" under the Lacey Act includes both an agreement to provide guide services and the provision of such services. In addition, because the court held that the statutory language was unambiguous, Fejes was unable to invoke the doctrine of lenity.

Fejes also argued that the district court erred in several of its jury instructions. First, Fejes contended the district court misstated the elements of the crime by instructing the jury that "felony liability could be imposed for either the transportation or sale of wildlife taken in violation of state law."[6] He argued that this jury instruction allowed the jury to substitute "transport" for "sale" as the underlying criminal conduct under the statute. The Ninth Circuit determined that the district court properly instructed the jury on this point. The instructions correctly informed the jury that to convict the defendant they must find that he sold or purchased the caribou, and they must also find an underlying violation, "namely that Fejes knowingly sold or transported the caribou in interstate commerce."[7] Fejes next argued that the district court failed to instruct the jury that it must unanimously agree as to the manner in which Fejes violated the Lacey Act. The court held that in light of the general rule that a unanimity instruction is not necessary, there was no plain error because Fejes failed to show that a special instruction was necessary due to the complexity of the facts.

Fejes also maintained that the district court committed error by refusing to instruct the jury that he could transport the dead caribou from the field under Alaska law in order to salvage and surrender it to state authorities.[8] Previous Ninth Circuit opinions have recognized that a defendant is entitled to a jury instruction regarding the theory of his defense as long as it is supported in law and has a foundation in the evidence.[9] After examining the evidence, the Ninth Circuit determined that Fejes's proposed instruction was not supported by evidence in the record. The record contained uncontested evidence that Fejes "sold" the caribou in interstate commerce. Although Alaska law does allow a person to transport illegally killed wildlife for the purpose of salvaging the wildlife and surrendering it to state authorities, the record contained no foundation for the jury to conclude that the sale did not involve interstate commerce.

Fejes next contended that the district court should have instructed the jury on "lesser included misdemeanor violations of the Lacey Act."[10] The Ninth Circuit held that the district court did not commit error because Fejes could not show that the jury could reasonably conclude that he was guilty of the lesser offense and not the greater. Fejes did not dispute that he sold guide services that were worth over $350, so there was no evidence on which the jury could reasonably determine that he was not guilty of the felony offense. Finally, Fejes argued that the district court erred by instructing the jury that it could use the value of Fejes's guide services to determine the market value of the caribou. The court quickly rejected this argument, citing a previous case that concluded the value of an animal "sold" under the Lacey Act is "best represented by the amount the hunter is willing to pay for the opportunity to participate in the hunt."[11]

[1] Lacey Act Amendments of 1981, 16 U.S.C. §§ 667e, 1540, 3371-3378; 18 U.S.C. §§ 42-44, 3054, 3112 (1994 & Supp. V 1999).

[2] Alaska Admin. Code tit. 5, § 92.085(8) (2000) (Unlawful Methods of Taking Big Game; Exceptions).

[3] 16 U.S.C. § 3372(a)(2)(A) (1994).

[4] Id. § 3372(c)(1).

[5] Id. § 3373(d)(1)(B).

[6] United States v. Fejes, 232 F.3d 696, 701 (9th Cir. 2000).

[7] Id. at 702.

[8] Alaska Admin. Code tit. 5, § 92.140(d) (2000).

[9] United States v. Duran, 59 F.3d 938, 941 (9th Cir. 1995).

[10] 232 F.3d at 703

[11] United States v. Atkinson, 966 F.2d 1270, 1273 (9th Cir. 1992).



Gatogordo---You had better go back and slowly read that entire post you put up because there is not one thing in that case that doesn't support our side of what is being discussed. Read it closely and you will see that what we are saying is substantiated in that case since he did violate at least one of the provisions in Part 1 of the act (sale), as well as a violation of Part 2 (Interstate commerce)! You, Sir, really need some reading comprehension lessons of some sort to be involved in a debate of this sort! Just the one following sentence taken from your post is proof that we are correct in our analysis of the intent of the Act and that is: "Although Alaska law does allow a person to transport illegally killed wildlife for the purpose of salvaging the wildlife and surrendering it to state authorities, the record contained no foundation for the jury to conclude that the sale did not involve interstate commerce."

Now go find another case and I'll blow that one out of the water for you too, LOL!

PS: It would be interesting to know whether the offending hunter(s) were also prosecuted under the Act for their part in actually shooting the animals in violation of the Alaska requirement of a day between flying and hunting. Maybe when I have time I'll see if there is any record of that, but it could also be that they were given immunity for possibly providing their testimony in the outfitter case itself.


I mean you really are slow. The GUIDE, who didn't shoot, and didn't have possesion of the caribou was prosecuted because his hunters broke Alaska's STATE game laws on a hunt he sold interstate.

Now, substitute Mexico for Alaska, foreign commerce for interstate commerce, and foreign laws for State, and you have a very similar situation. Really how plain does it have to be for you to understand something?


***You'd obviously argue that the sun is the moon, LOL, and are are so ****ing far off on both these cases that I'm not even replying any more after this post! He sold them a hunt, took them on said hunt, witnessed and participated in at least one violation of killing game the same day they were in the air, was appraised of a similar violation by his employee and none of that was reported to the wildlife agency, which is also a violation of the law. The hunters then returned to their home state(s) where they received their trophies by interstate shipment, thus making him liable under both parts of the Act for not just misdemeanors, but felonies in this particular instance. You call me slow? I only dealt with the law for 30+ years and can read how it's written and intrepret it's intent! Where the hell did you get your law degree when you can't even read simple English? You must be a friggin Aggie, LOL!
 
Posts: 1576 | Registered: 16 March 2011Reply With Quote
one of us
posted Hide Post
I'm so glad you apparently are no longer interpreting the law because you are obviously incompetent to do so.


xxxxxxxxxx
When considering US based operations of guides/outfitters, check and see if they are NRA members. If not, why support someone who doesn't support us? Consider spending your money elsewhere.

NEVER, EVER book a hunt with BLAIR WORLDWIDE HUNTING or JEFF BLAIR.

I have come to understand that in hunting, the goal is not the goal but the process.
 
Posts: 17099 | Location: Texas USA | Registered: 07 May 2001Reply With Quote
One of Us
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Topgun 30-06:

The hunters then returned to their home state(s) where they received their trophies by interstate shipment, thus making him liable under both parts of the Act for not just misdemeanors, but felonies in this particular instance.



That's the difference.
 
Posts: 396 | Location: CA | Registered: 23 October 2007Reply With Quote
One of Us
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Gatogordo:
I'm so glad you apparently are no longer interpreting the law because you are obviously incompetent to do so.



***Never lost a single case of over 150 that I prosecuted! How many have you done there Perry Mason, LOL?!
 
Posts: 1576 | Registered: 16 March 2011Reply With Quote
One of Us
posted Hide Post
There is an extremely unflattering article on Mr Rice in the latest edition of the Hunting Report.
 
Posts: 11954 | Location: Orlando, FL | Registered: 26 January 2006Reply With Quote
One of Us
Picture of Nakihunter
posted Hide Post
I am not from the US but I have a couple of questions.

Is selling a hunt part of "Commerce"?

Is selling an illegal hunt in the US a violation of the Lacey Act?

In other words, can the act be interpreted only on the grounds of an illegal sale of an illegal hunt rather than involving a trophy or animal part?

Also - in other words, does the animal have to be dead in order to make the Lacey Act relevant?


"When the wind stops....start rowing. When the wind starts, get the sail up quick."
 
Posts: 11006 | Location: New Zealand | Registered: 02 July 2008Reply With Quote
One of Us
posted Hide Post
I just received this month's issue of Camp Talk from DSC and Todd Rice has an ad on page 15.


____________________________________________

"Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life." Terry Pratchett.
 
Posts: 3507 | Location: Wyoming | Registered: 25 February 2005Reply With Quote
One of Us
Picture of drummondlindsey
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Lhook7:
I just received this month's issue of Camp Talk from DSC and Todd Rice has an ad on page 15.


Wasted his money. He's toast...




 
Posts: 2092 | Location: Windsor, CO | Registered: 06 December 2005Reply With Quote
One of Us
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Lhook7:
I just received this month's issue of Camp Talk from DSC and Todd Rice has an ad on page 15.


Perhaps someone connected should advise DSC.
 
Posts: 11954 | Location: Orlando, FL | Registered: 26 January 2006Reply With Quote
One of Us
posted Hide Post
There is a new article on Mr. Rice in the latest Hunting Report. it is UGLY!
 
Posts: 11954 | Location: Orlando, FL | Registered: 26 January 2006Reply With Quote
One of Us
posted Hide Post
 
Posts: 11954 | Location: Orlando, FL | Registered: 26 January 2006Reply With Quote
One of Us
posted Hide Post
Wow!


____________________________________________

"Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life." Terry Pratchett.
 
Posts: 3507 | Location: Wyoming | Registered: 25 February 2005Reply With Quote
One of Us
Picture of drummondlindsey
posted Hide Post
To truly understand just how bad the asshole is you need to see how many tags he had and how many hunts he ran. He bumbledicked into a few big deer on my borders but he ran a horrible camp and cared more about going to town to bang whores than he did hunting. He had a fraction of the tags for clients knowing and hoping they wouldn't all kill deer.

Whats most tragic IMO is that he has now educated some other Mexican outfitters as to how to pull it off. That country has some of the very best mule deer hunting in the world but they'll ruin it and that will be a shame.
 
Posts: 2092 | Location: Windsor, CO | Registered: 06 December 2005Reply With Quote
  Powered by Social Strata Page 1 2  
 

Accuratereloading.com    The Accurate Reloading Forums    THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS  Hop To Forum Categories  Hunting  Hop To Forums  American Big Game Hunting    Outfitter Alerty----Beware of Todd Rice, Sonoran Outfitters

Copyright December 1997-2023 Accuratereloading.com


Visit our on-line store for AR Memorabilia