Ok, I'm looking for some opinions.

Say this rifle would be used for the following: sheep, goats, caribou, elk, and moose. Shots would be out to 400 yards, most inside 300. This would be bear country, so it should have enough power to break down a grizzly. While around camp or while packing meat, a tough, heavy-for-caliber bullet would be loaded.

What cartridge would you choose? And why?

TB

todbartell

"Breaking down grizzly" is one thing and mountian hunting another, I think.

340 wby 375H&H etc, 338 win would be my choice for pure bear hunting perhaps 300 win or 300 wby with 200 grain Noslers. Other suitable mountain caibers for goat, sheep etc. would be 270 win, 280 rem, 7 rem mag, 7mm wby.

There is nor easy answer to your question

/ JOHAN

Todbartell: I have not owned one of these calibered Rifles yet but I wonder if the new this year Remington 700 BDL SS in 300 Remington SA Ultra Mag would fill your needs? It is a short action Rifle available in 300 Remington SA Ultra Mag or the 7mm SA Ultra Mag. This is a great looking Rifle with a stainless steel action and barrel with a black fiberglass stock and a high performance recoil pad. I looked at the 300 Remington SA Ultra Mag's ballistic chart and it has 3,501 FT/LB's of energy at the muzzle and still has 2,000 FT/LB's of energy at 400 yards! This using Remington ammunition with the Nosler 180 grain Partition! That should knock down a good sized Bear along with the other Game you mentioned! Wow! Like I said its a good looking Rifle as pictured in the new 2003 Remington catalog. It is also available in a RMEF edition with a camoflage fiberglass stock.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

[ 02-09-2003, 15:13: Message edited by: VarmintGuy ]

I'm fine with my 300 WSM for your purpose. I plan to use 150s for sheep only.

If I was in serious bear country, or if elk and moose were on the agenda I would step up to 180s.

If I wanted to simplify my life I'd use 180 gr. ammo for everything.

No big bears where I hunt but have been looking for an affordable lightweight for elk hunting. Check out the new Tikka Stainless Syn T3 in 300WSM. I'm waiting for a price from the dealer now. Not sure if they're avail yet. Found them on Beretta's website.
Steve

30/06. Regards, Bill.

30.06 or .308 with 180grn FailSafes

Any of the standard flat shooting cartridges would do the job. I prefer the .270, but the .280 or 30-06 would be as good.
For the sheep etc, the 30-06 would be last choice for me, but for the big bear it would be the first choice. One can never go wrong with the 06.

The late Grancel Fitz (probably misspelled) took every species of big game and record trophies in North America with a Remington 30-06. I think it was a M30 which was a modified Enfield action. Am open to corrections on this.

Jerry

I 've carried a .44mag, and now a FA casull in black bear country while bowehunting. Just in case I run into a Blakie that doesn't know he's afraid of humans. I have been way too close several time, while stalking or being set-up on Elk.

For Griz or Brown bears the pervailing wisdom is a 12gauge. as a "self preservation" tool.

The best wisdom for bears is mutual respect. If you stumble into a bears comfort zone, a rifle cal. might not do what you want.

Back to you question, how about .375 HH? You should be able to get within that range for goats or sheep, bowhunters manage to get within bowrange.

.375HH has killed the biggest stuff on the planet.

Best of luck on your hunt.

The 300 Win Mag shooting 180gr "premium bullets" in an 8.5lb package.

chuck

For somethin' a little different how about a 8mm Rem mag?

I believe any of the 30 caliber magnums shooting a good 180 grain premimum bullet (for the Grizz) should do the trick. They will be flat shooting enough for the longer ranges, and still have plenty of knockdown power.

300 win mag with a good 200gr bullet for everything. The difference between a 200gr bullet @ 2800fps at 400yds and a 150gr bullet @ 3200fps isn't as much as you might surmise. And the carry up (sustained energy) would be more for the heavier bullet.
I've never shot a sheep nor a grizzly but I've shot everything from antelope to elk with a 300 win mag using a 200 gr grand slam bullet. The damage to an antelope is amazingly slight (less, I think, than say a .270) And they thump an elk with plenty of authority. And the recoil is easily managed so you can shoot often enough to become proficient. That, I think, is more important than selecting some shoulder cannon that's going to knock you off the mountain. More powder doesn't overcome poor marksmanship.

todbartall,

The 300WSM would be a fine choice. The rifles they are chambered in are reasonably light and there is enough power to do the job.
The majority of the locals here and in Northern B.C are using old standard calibers. The 270,30-06,7mmRemMag,280,and the 300Win.Mag. Some are using .338's and .375's,9.3's etc. but they are mostly moose hunters.
The fellows that I know that are serious mountian hunters(sheep,goats,caribou,grizzly,moose,etc.) are using 270, 280, 7mmRem.Mag. These guys guide hunts for a living and have hundreds of trophies under thier belts. Most of these guys only have the one rifle. I hunt with these guys and I am amused by how unimportant the caliber is to them compared to other things or equipment. They will talk about game or the areas they hunt them in for days but bring the subject up about calibers... The subject ussualy begins and ends with," my 270 is great, it kills everything dead that I shoot."
My sheep rifle or backpack rifle is a lightweight M70 chambered in a 30-338. My other mountian hunting rifles are a .338Win.Mag and a 7mmSTW. For years I used a 7mmRem.Mag.
If I had to start all over I would go with the 7mmRem.Mag. and 160gr. Bullets. Or possibly the 300WSM even though I have no personal experience. It just seems to have the right amount of what is needed in a mountain rifle.

Daryl

Like Johan said, mountain hunting & grizzly stopping are not really in the same rifle. I chose a .280rem. built on a M70 action. Scoped & loaded, it weghs in @ just over 7#. I could load up some 175grNP for bear protection, but it would not be my 1st choice.
With the new short mags, I think a REm. M7 in .300rsum would be the perfect "mountain" rig. Shooting 180gr premiums in bear/elk country or 165gr for sheep/goat. I may have to just get one?

[ 02-10-2003, 00:04: Message edited by: fredj338 ]

A mountain gun and a grizz. gun are two different animals. I just read an article about a forest worker in Alaska that had to stop a charging grizz at 50yrds. He fell at his feet after unloading his 7mm rem mag semi-auto. He had to reload to finish him off. 12'6" at the shoulders, 1600 pounds. Of course the game department didn't let him keep it. Fuzz

Tod: I use a Ruger M 77 in .270 Win with 150 gr. Nosler Partitions for all of my mountain hunting and is my favorite caliber for sheep. It will take a moose although moose hunting occurs on a different trip. We never shoot moose when we're after sheep. It'll also take grizzlies. Since you should be hunting with a partner and always keep your distance between each other in the field, I don't see as how a .270 with premium bullets is not a good choice. I like the Ruger partly because it also has a set of open sights for use in an emergency should something happen to your scope. Not an impossibility in the mountains. My take on it anyway. Bear in Fairbanks

I'd be fine with a 270, 308, 30-06 or my 300 H&H...with premium bullets i'd take on the biggest Grizzly they have.....and if I had a 7x57 I'd still be content....

.280Rem. and 160gr. Partitions

Anything from .270 to .338.

I'd use a 300WSM because I have one. My second choice would be a 7mmRM beause I know it well.

Why wouldnt you pick a 270 ?

My friends who hunt the hills use anything from 25-06 to 338WM, and I use a 30-06. I've never worried about not having a magnum when I'm in bear country - and I've worked in northern BC and the Yukon every summer for 5 years. Most of the time I don't carry a firearm. Just use whatever is reasonable for the game you're after. A 30-06 does it all for me.

And you shouldn't have to worry about a 400 yard shot not even for sheep or goat. A good friend of mine is a mountain guide and out of 6 hunters this season, the longest shot was about 225 yards.

[ 02-10-2003, 08:44: Message edited by: Mike Treberg ]

All you guys that say mountain hunting and grizzly stopping are two different things should have been on my last goat hunt when the griz was twenty yards away and coming heel bent for leather. I had a 30-06 ( and it did work very well) but my next rifle is going to be a 338 ultra mag.

Todbartell

Maybe I read this post diferently but I thought you were asking about a 'Mountain Rifle' in Bear Country. Not a Bear Hunting Rifle in the mountains. If you're post is for a rifle that can handle a serious Bear confrontation while hunting other species than there is no substitude for power. Ranges will be SHORT and changing bullets won't be a viable alternative. Go with the 300 H&H min. with the 180.

Mountain Grizzlies aren't all that big but if you are planning on a trip closer to the coast than the Bears can be 600# and up. A light .338 or .340 and a 210 Nosler would be better for Moose, deadly on Goats, Sheep and 'Bous and adequate for the 'slight' chance of a Grizzly encounter.

All three can be had in fast handling and lightweight rifles with a little effort and minimal cost increase.

The best way to avoid a Grizzly confrontation is to pay attention and keep on your toes.

I was typing my reply when the Cougarhunting added his and we both agree on the rifle issue, no doubt.

[ 02-10-2003, 09:09: Message edited by: Mickey1 ]

I appreciate all the replies.

I'd like to keep the rifle light, under 8 lbs total w/scope. I know 400 yards would be a extremely long poke, at least for me. I've never shot at anything past 250 yards, and the range I use goes to 330 yards (300m). And the bear thing, I really should of put a * next to that one, it would be quite rare occurance where I'd need to protect myself. I guess any cartridge suitable for elk and moose would work for a bear, with a stout bullet. No point in packing a 458 for sheep, just becasuse I might run into a bear.

What about a 308 Winchester, they can be made into a very light package, and can reach out to 325 yards without much trouble, with 165 gr. bullets. A tougher bullet can be loaded for moose & elk, and would be potent to 200 yards.

What do you guys think? Is a 308 Win a good choice?

BTW, I have a M700 Mtn Rifle in 260 Rem, but I feel this would be a tad light for moose/elk, but would be great on the medium sized game.

[ 02-10-2003, 09:36: Message edited by: todbartell ]

Tod. I think it would be a good choice but keep those shots on moose a little closer. A 3006 can push a bullet out a little farther on moose but is more than you need for the rest. It's not a short action but is available in any big game rifle out there pretty much.
There is allways the 300wsm in short action but don't know if it comes in a nice light rifle.
My choice would be a 280rem. Maybe!

I think the .308 is an excellent choice. The 165grn bullet is also an excellent choice all though I've grown very fond of the 180grn FailSafes and I would use them for everything, all the time, in the .308, just like I'm doing in my 30.06. They are great on a big feral hog. They can punch right through the tough shoulder shield better than any bullet I've ever used- it will really knock them down...

30cal.180grn flat base
(30.06)2600fps- zero-200yds, -9.2"-300yds, -26.6"-400yds
(.308)2500fps- zero-200yds, -10"-300yds, -29"-400yds.

165grn flat base
(30.06)2700fps- zero-200yds, -8.4"-300yds, -25.5"-400yds.
(.308)2600fps= zero-200yds, -9.2"-300yds, -26.5"-400yds.

Johan/LarryS- is this the bear picture you were looking for?



[ 02-11-2003, 00:29: Message edited by: CaptJack ]

I was thinking more along the lines of a 165 gr. Barnes X bullet @ 2700 fps for the big stuff.

Maybe a 180 gr. Fail Safe too, @ 2550-2600 fps.

The 165 gr. X bullet should be able to fully penetrate a moose or elk broadside. Any X bullet above 165 gr. takes up the powder space at 2.81". A 180 gr. Fail Safe is the same length as a 165 gr. X.

My opinion is that you would be doing yourself a favor by looking more at ballistic coefficients and the effects of wind at longer ranges than at maximum velocities. This is particularly true if you learn how to use a scope with a reticle that allows you to compensate for bullet drop -- my favorite is the 2.5-10x42 IOR Tactical with MP-8 reticle.

Bullet velocity is vastly over-rated, and the importance of bullet energy is typically badly misunderstood. The biggest advantage of higher velocity is that it extends your point blank range. A bullet drop compensating reticle does an even better job of extending your range, and doesn't come along with the other disadvatages of high velocity -- the most underappreciated of which is that high velocity with expanding bullets actually decreases their penetration and wounding effect (and I'm not just talking about bullets blowing up on impact.)

Get a lightweight .308 Win, .338-08, or .358 Win, put the IOR scope on top (and learn how to use it), load up with heavy bullets with high ballistic coefficients, and you're all set to head into the mountains. You don't really need the extra velocity, but 300 WSM or 300 SAUM would work well, too.

I was looking at the Barnes 165 gr. X boat tail as a all purpose bullet. The BC is .505, and it retains its velocity quite well.

A 308 so loaded @ 2700 fps. has a +/- 3" PBR of 270 yards. Wind drift at 300 yards is 3" in a 10 mph wind.

There's no doubt that a Barnes 165 XBT in .308 offers excellent ballistics... if you can get it to shoot accurately. Barnes X bullets, and the boat tails in particular, are notoriously difficult to get to group tightly. As a result, I wouldn't want to plan my rifle around this one bullet or depend exclusively on it for long range shooting.

Additionally, I'd recheck your windage calculations: I show more like 6.2" at 300 yds. and a 10 mph wind.

A much safer bet in terms of accuracy is the 180gr Nosler Ballistic Tip. At about 2600 fps, this bullet will give you almost the same windage as the 165 XBT. Bullet drop will increase, point blank range will decrease, and impact velocity will fall; but none of that really matters if your sights can compensate for the bullet drop. A mildot or similar type scope means you don't really care about conventional point blank range. Instead, you'll zero at about 70-100 yds. (putting you less than 2" away from point of aim past 150 yds) and use the reticle markings to stay vertically very close to POA well past 400 yds. (potentially to 1000 yds with the MP-8 if you can shoot as well as a professional sniper.) Impact velocity of the 180 BT at 400 yds will still be a more than adequate 1975 fps.

If you don't like Ballistic Tips, there are other 180 and even 200 grain bullets that will perform very similarly.

Go ahead and try the 165 XBT; but even if you can get those to shoot, learning how to use an advanced reticle with a light weight mountain rifle is a very good thing -- and a much better choice than a hyper velocity magnum, in my opinion.

I did check the windage calculations. I got that from Realguns.com

http://www.realguns.com/ballistics.htm

A BC of .505 @ 2700 drifts 3.0 inches @ 300 yards.

I then went to http://internet.cybermesa.com/~jbm/ballistics/traj/traj.html , and plugged those numbers in.

I got 6.6" of drift. I thought the 3" sounded a little low. I though maybe the 308 had a little magic in it!

Info Sponge,

Check your PM's.

[ 02-10-2003, 15:13: Message edited by: todbartell ]

I'd use now what I've used before for that kind of hunting: A custom 8.5 lb. Model 70 Winchester with a 24" barrel, a pillar-bedded synthetic stocked, and topped with either a 2.5-8X or 3.5-10X scope in non-detachable mounts. Ammunition: Premium 180 gr. bullet (Nosler Partition, Trophy Bonded, Winchester Fail-Safe, etc.) loaded to 3100 fps. and zeroed for 250 yards.

This package can take in a lot of hunting, and not just in the mountains........

AD

Tod, I've gone down the same path as you using the 308 for all around duties. I also thought the 165 gr X would make a great all around bullet. However, none of my 308's (I have six of them) will shoot the X bullet accurately. I have had some great success with the X in 30-06 and 270, but not in any of my 308's. Go figure! I would try the load out in your rifle, and if it works, I would use it for anything with no real worries. Just keep in mind that an angry bear will be felled by marksmanship, not ballistics. FWIW - Dan

Todd,

I like your line of thinking since the most important issue here is a enough energy for the Grizz, but a tough bullet in the right place to get the job done. .308 short positive feed action 20-22" barrel would be my minimum, but a .7mm-08 in a push feed would probably work for others (I would have a hard time with a springy extractor of a pump or semi-auto in this situation, others may be okay with this). This is a mountain Grizz, not a coastal brown which would be VERY different. The first thing you have to have for a close in instant kill on a charging bear is a hit to the CNS. If Bears are a real issue you have to do a fair amount of close in fast shooting practice w/your 1st round hopefully in the 10ring and this is the MOST important factor (you HAVE to feel the pressure of time and a moving target). I would suggest rigging a car tire leaning against a tree on a hill 25-50yrds away with a brick under it w/a rope attached. Pull the brick and make the 1st one count while emptying the mag before the tire gets to you hopefully scoring at least one more hit (I would consider myself ready for this situation when I scored 3 of 4, in real life situation this might end up being 1 of 2). With the tire rolling toward you it will be about the correct size of the kill zone (dead in the center or high on the tire will replicate brain/spine, little low in the heart may not be instant but your partner may live to tell about it). Barnes in 150gr minimum is my first choice (you want PENETRATION). No other bullet will penetrate as well. The .7mm-08 and .308 will be good enough that close for Mtn. Grizz (enough energy 50yrds and closer and fast shooting since the recoil is minimal and action is short), long enough for the others. BTW, what is meant by "Bertuzzi scores on the rebound"?

Deke.

Johan, I can e-mail you pics of the bear and hunter if you like. I don't know how to post them. E-mail me if you want them or can post them.

As for the question at hand, I would use a light 30-06 or above. The 308 will work as well. I know I will get flack now, but my choice would be my 264 Win Mag with 140 Partitions.

Good luck.