as far when the shit hits the fan,308,3006,3030,223,12gauge,22lr,all available in a break-in rummage a t wal-mart and everywhere else,including dead military or live military guys(assuming a preemptive nuclear strike)because they(the military will run too)they've got familiies like some of us do a nd they will abandon what they have control over....and all the calibers except 3006 and 22lr are used by the military....but also,in the next few days after a "strike"be ready for nuclear radiated fall-out,it will contaminate everything,water,animals,etc.,so be sure to have all your ducks in a row as far as survival supplies.alos,be willing to have the mind set to kill anything and everything to survive(inc.neighbors,friends,etc.or you won't survive)yes,gruesome now,but if you place yourself in a survival situation,hungry,you will as a animal do anything against anyone you know to survive,even its not total collapse of the world,i've placed myself in that situation before by accident or mistake before and you will do anything to survive and i did,no matter if its scamming your own family out of money to survive,survival is each persons prime directive in their soul....(i lived in the woods for 6 months,rain,cold,everything in a cloth us military tent with my ex,yes,stupid bad situation,but at the time i wanted to be with them at all costs and i was very young and i we/did survive).i'm sure it was a transforming experience for both of us and no use for all you others to batter me on this,i was completely innocent ,no address to give employers,non-supportive family and no where to turn except what i'd taught myself to my 16th 17th b'day.i had to do what i believed in at the time....
and to this day,i'm 33 as of last wedns.,my parents wouldnt care if were living in a box they wouldnt help me,no sob story,the hard core truth,but now i've got a 3006,308 and a 30/30 and 22lr,(2)12ga.and a hungarian 7.62 by 39mm AK with lots of rounds and reloading equipment....

all in all,the 22lr gets the bid,ammo everywhere and at good deals(9.97 for federal hp's at wal-mart at 550rounds per that amount)so, go figure and the ruger 10/22 is excellent,i've personally shot 8000rounds through this rifle i purchashed alittle over a year ago,not much over a year ago though and i still bust squirrels and rabbits and everything else with it with precision....

The choice for a rifle is a no-brainer, M98 accept nothing else. It's the most reliable action ever made, easy to work on, and parts available anywhere. For caliber, I would pick 7.62x51, Worldwide availability, and ammo could be confiscated from UN troops.

Major Caliber, are you sure about the M98 being the most reliable? I seem to recall the lee-enfield working in conditions that made M98's choke up.
No question the M98 is the best made, but most reliable? Depends on the conditions.
As for the cartridge, that also would depend on where you live. 308, 7.62x39, .223 or which ever common round is readily available, although I personally would take a .22lr over most others, anyday. Maybe the .22wmrf, but probably the LR.
If you do make it, there will probably be 'pick-ups' all over the place. If you don't make it, it probably won't be because of your choice of round, more likely your choice of tactics.

Cheers, Dave.
Non Illegitium Carborundum

Whichever rifle I still had ammo for. Doesnt matter, 22 lr to 45-70.

During the worst of times a guy would ditch the most excellent select fire Armalite that was empty for an antiquated single shot youth 22lr if that was the only thing he had rounds for.

Actually I think that a 30-30 would be an excellent choice. Some of its upside are ammo availability, mild report, plenty power for deer sized game, low powder consumption, lightweight, and it is also quite hardcast compatible which could be used to advantage during such times.


Welcome back Dan! Its been a while.

For the scenario described the .22 rimfire rifle is tops... Ammo is available by the billions - stores will probably have been looted and/or cleaned-out, so if you have to scrounge (most likely you will eventually) it can be found in people's garages, junk drawers, campers, tackle boxes, glove boxes, etc. You can carry a huge supply if you wish and it will perform surprisingly well when you need to feed yourself, defend yourself, etc.

I've got a stainless/synthetic boat-paddle Ruger M77/22 that's nearly indestructible. It's a tack-driver and the last word on reliable. This would be my choice for a one-gun-for-the-end-of-the-world scenario. This rifle weighs 5.25 pounds and is very handy. I can drop anything up to deer with it easily with skillful stalking and careful shot placement.

For a sidearm I'd take my SigPro stainless/polymer 9mm... The most common and easily found centerfire pistol round in such times most likely. I'm a big fan of the .45 ACP also, but you can't carry nearly as many rounds and my SigPro is a sweetheart to shoot I have to admit.

I've thought much of the survival scenario and have prepared more so than most... I have two homes - both in the rural mountains far from any large towns or cities, one of my homes is very, very remote and would be my #1 choice in case of mayhem and rioting. Both places are self-sufficient and can operate "off the grid" if necessary... having a well and generator/gasoline, are fully stocked with a supply of food and arms/ammo. I have coleman stoves, lanterns, gallons of fuel for them, canned food, assorted military gear and an excellent (Katadyn) water filter (had the folks in New Orleans had one they could have drank the water right from where they stood with a Katadyn filter).

It takes a serious commitment and effort to be prepared for long-term hard times. In this country we're only 24 to 48 hours from rioting and looting in most major cities in the event of a big trajedy. Escaping from the cities can be very difficult or impossible without advanced warning. Once the freeways are shut down or have been taken over by the military for their usage you're stuck. A good bicycle is your best mode of escape, as the roadways will be JAMMED and gasoline nearly impossible to get once you're out of it.

I have many rifles and that includes AR-15's in both .223 and 7.62x39, SKS, Mini-14 and various bolt guns, etc. But if I had to choose ONE it would have to be the bolt-action in .22 rimfire. I have 10,000+ rds of it on-hand and cached away. I hope we never need to resort to such a "Plan B", but sadly it seems more likely than ever that I'll live long enough to see such times to one degree or another. Those who have prepared must be ready to defend their supplies and equipment and help a neighbor or two if able, but being far from urban areas makes it much easier. My remote home is 35 miles from the nearest town of any kind (Kingman,AZ which is not that big anyways) and about 100 miles from a town of any significant size (Las Vegas).

Prepare while times are good and peaceful. When the $#!% hits the fan it's too late and all u can do is hold onto your A$$ at that point.

Got to agree with 458RugerNo1, except I would have thought one of those smith&wesson or rugers fitted with a multi round cylinder (the ones I have seen will let you shoot anything from 380 through to 357) might have been the go? Mine was on my 686 4", until Little Johnny decided that we Australians couldn't be trusted with handguns.
Yes, a 22lr or 22 mag will cover everything from foraging to protection (although hiding would be better than shooting it out with a .22lr), far from ideal, but much better than nothing.
I would take the 22 Mag given the choice, but a 22lr would still be much better than nothing.
But the gun is only one aspect of the plan, as recent events have shown. For those interested I can heartily recommend the writings of Mel Tappan, long deceased, and sorely missed.
Even if you don't agree with him, he will make you think.

Cheers, Dave.
Non Illegitium Carborundum

When SHTF, we are all dead meat if we go it alone. Minimum is a group of 4, whether friends or family...all with cool heads and good shooting skill. This allows for some diversification in the arms carried by and shared with each member and little things like sleep.

For a single armed individual, there is no future in SHTF, regardless of the weapon you carry.

I also thought long and hard on my RugerMK III Hunter and the 10/22 as to ammo but I would choose my Colt Tactical Carbine w/100 rnd Beta and the 8 20's= 200 rounds. seems enough to get started and still light enough to carry along with the needed items.

There never is a power vacum for long. People will organize into groups. If you have a long range rifle and know how to use it you'll be a very welcome member of any band/group. You'll be the closest thing to artillery that the leader will have. Your survival will be just about like prehistoric days. Alone your someones prey, in a group your the predators. So I would say a good reliable "varmint" .308 with a excellent scope would be a hard to beat "survialist" rifle. No I don't have one! Second would be a 9MM pistol on my hip. Third would be a Volquartsn "superlight" in .22 LR. Feather light and reliable and accurate with a Leuplold 6X scope in good rings. Ammo? Subsonic HPs. If your in a urban area I would get a AR 15 with scope/irons. As far as getting ammo from the "army"....whatever "army" your talking about is going to be out of ammo unless things are stable enough for resupply. Young recruits arn't known for their fire discipline. They will be looking to get ammo from YOU. I really see just two things that could lead to this. A hit by a comet/asteroid or some Russian Doctor could drop his test tube of Super Smallpox with the 90% death rate. Chances are you'll run out of ammo long time before your gun needs to be serviced by a gunsmith. The above .308 FAL in the "sniper" configuratoin would be my choice of the ones mentioned here. FNMauser

Burt Reynolds in the movie "Delivreance" believed the system would break down. He carried and bow and arrow, but what broke was his leg.

If he had a rifle, it would have made a better splint.

fnmauser, I guess the hurricane season this year doesn't count? it sure looks a bit like the SHTF?
As for the TEOTWAWKI, well I'd have to say you are about right on the money there. except I'd say the system which emerged first would closer to Feudal rather the prehistoric stone age stuff. Unless people did really learn to get along, when you might find a sort of (much as I hate to say it!) 'communistic' type of society, where people shared and helped each other as necessary. Can't really see that happening, can you?
You may also find you may not be as welcome as you might think in a survial group on the basis of ownimg a long range rifle. For the same reason that the Grunts I have worked with will not let strangers attached to them for ops stand piquet. Lives are at stake. Why would they trust you, if they don't know you?
Your choices of guns are great, but are they all part of a 'package' you are going to carry?
Or share out among a group?
One aspect often overlooked is a good knife. make sure it is something you can count on. Something with a good blade 6-7", and above all, a FULL tang. No kabars please.

Cheers, Dave.
Non Illegitium Carborundum

Gentlemen
I suggest everybody take a look at jimmyd223,s
choice of rifle. If you expect to survive any sort of "Bad Days" everyone in your family who is old enough to shoot should have such a rifle.
I would add a few more magazines, cleaning kits and extra lube. 1000 rounds per gun minimum.
Anyone can shoot the 223. If the "Man" of the family would rather have a 308, that is fine.
Which ever rifle you get it should be compact.
A handgun per person would be good too. With several extra magazines or speed loaders.

quote:

Originally posted by Pecos45: One day it struck me that the ultimate Doomsday rifle is and MUST be the very lowly .22 Long Rifle

Go, Pecos, Go! I agree 100%. The real question is which one? A nice accurate bolt gun or one of the autoloaders? I'd be choosing between Marlin 60 and one of the old Remington 51Xs. The Marlin is not bad, but is at its best accuracy with only one brand of cartridge.

Start looking for secondhand Nylon66s in good condition. Mine was great, never let me down, and required minimal maintainence. Pity they discontinued it. Now, of course, thanks to Little Johnny, it's a bunch of paperclips or something. My personal pick for a new rifle would be a 77/22 in the 22Mag. But since I have a very accurate Browning T-bolt, I guess I'm already set.

Cheers, Dave.
Non Illegitium Carborundum

N E 450 No2,Yes indeed, a very nice rifle. But, #1, how much $, and #2 how is everyone in your group going to carry 1000 rds of .223?
I spent the better part of the last 20 years carrying first an M16/203, and then a Steyr AUG. The basic load is 7 mags of 30rds for 210rds. On ops, I (and everyone else too) used to carry 22 mags, each downloaded by 2, to ensure reliable functioning, as help can be a long time away. And that load is quite heavy. At the time I was reasonably fit, and could hack carrying that weight, plus the other 85kgs or so, but how many of my (or your) family could do the same? The answer is, of course, not many.
For that reason alone, the .22 is king if it comes down to value for weight carried. If you are in a group, by all means have one or two centrefires, and share out the ammo for carrying, much the same as Grunts share out the ammo for the GPMG. But the 22lr or mag is the best value for weight. And it's so cheap everyone can have one.
Caching is a different matter altogether. If you can afford it, and you have the place to do it, why not stash away an M-4 plus a heap of ammo for everyone in your family? But only after shelter, water (or a means of getting it), food, fire, etc.
If I was going to cache something I waould give serious consideration to the savage 24v in 223/12g. Or if you can find one the 24C in 22lr/20g. these guns will keep food in the pot, and predators away, and don't cost the earth.
Just a thought.

Cheers, Dave.
Non Illegitium Carborundum

Sambar 9.3
2 basic "Bad Days" scenarios occure to me.
One, you are "staying" and defending in place.
Two, you must evacuate, which hopefully you will start out at least, in a vehicle of some sort. Once things start, getting more ammo will likely be impossible. The more you have the better off you will be.

I have been in a couple of gunfights, and face the possibility of another every day. I do not carry a 22 rimfire, I do not recommend anyone else does either.
Sometimes you just have to ask yourself "How much is my life worth?"
Then spend accordingly on your equipment AND your training.

I was in a BB gun fight in 1965, and the important thing I learned was to have the good BB gun fighters on MY side.

In a squirt gun fight, I once got on the roof with a water hose with a nozzle. I was a machine gun nest. They took me out by pinching my hose. That's when a guy really needs a water balloons. They are grenades.

Later in the Jr. high cafeteria, a food fight broke out. That is a riot. The riot gun of choice was flicking a table spoon of baked beans. When the food fight gets dirty, go for the stains on their clothes. I could have learned more tactics that day, but I was distracted when a bean went down Dawn Galetzig's cleavage. Not many girls packed that kind of distraction, and she took me out of the game.

Yep, sometimes I think I grew up in the movie "Sin City", and it's time to buy some surgical tubing for tourniquets.

N E 450 No2, O.K, I misunderstood you there, I was worst casing it right from the word go. My statements are all based on being on foot, carrying what you need. Sure, If you have a vehicle, and the $ for the guns and ammo, why not? You would be a whole lot better off in a gunfight, or indeed in a long term survival problem.
Now that you mention it, I seem to recall someone saying a bushbike for evey family member , with racks to carry the basic gear, either towed or on the roof of the car, would be an option. Sounds good to me, it would sure increase you mobility and load carrying after the gas is gone.
I was not talking of gunfight's, I was referring to survival. Having been in a few, I personally would rather hide or run and avoid a fight, than get my family involved in one.
No-one in their right mind would go looking for trouble with a .22lr, but lots of times trouble can be avoided.
Therein lies the distinction between 'bad days' and TEOTWAWKI. One involves sitting tight and waiting for order to be restored, the other, well, it'll be a brave new world, won't it?

Cheers, Dave.
Non Illegitium Carborundum

And be sure to watch out for the guy with the water balloons!

Cheers, Dave.
Non Illegitium Carborundum

My worse case scenario rifle would be a flintlock. When all of you guys run out of primer and powder, I'll be makin' mine.

Brent

Give me a semi-auto .22 rimfire with a large mag ca[pacity.
You can carry 1000 rounds of ammo in your pockets.

If the S**T really hit the fan my choice would be the AK 47 (a real one) and about two thousand rounds of ammo. They work and work goodn even when half full of mud...make no mistake about that. As a second arm, I'd choose a 22 lr semi auto pistol.

just a month ago i was musing the same scenario. complements of Kartina, mayor nagin &gov.blanco,i had 3 hrs to git. AR15w500rds&glock w300rds9mmcame in my suburban. thought i would be gone 2 days ,it was 3 wks. cops would NOT stop looters in NO, OKNG was siezing homeowners guns until NRA got injunction to stop.anarchy was by omission& comission.was very comforting to have firepower. realize a long shot is 75yds in town223 is fine. friends hired israeli mercenaries to guard their block,they had AR+glocks9mm.they were just back from iraq& for 200k a week could have had anything they wanted. this was as close as i want to get but ill take the same thing next{hope not} time.

I go with the 22LR. You can talk deer and small game with it and carry thousands of rounds. In my younger dumber years I popped many a animal that would come into the barn to feed on the hay during the winter. With a nice 4x weaver good rest and under 25-30 yards they drop with shots behind the eye 1-2 inches. These where young stupid poor east texas years where we did not buy meat you got it all year around on your property. You can also pop birds drinking at the bank of a pond. Plug carp in the shallows. The lovely tree rat if need be. Wont work on pork though at all. If times get bad I will be eating a lot of dog and cat.

After the 22 run out I have the lovely muzzle loader melt your own bullets. Gun powder is what sulfur charcoal and nitrogen. Should be able to round that up and break out the flint lock. If that dont work I go with bow hunting full time instead of for the occasional meal. Arrows are easy to make and I have the bows plenty of recurves and with primitive archery magazines I can make replacement bows thanks to the articles.

Swiftshot, with the bows and arrows, it's actually the other way around. The bows are reasonably easy, it's the arrows that can be hard to make from scratch. Not so much the heads, nocks, or fletching, but finding the workable material for the shafts.

Cheers, Dave.
Non Illegitium Carborundum

I made arrow heads and bows with my father when I was a tike, so I did the same with my son when he came along.

We could make great bows and nice to look at arrows, but for distance, the store bought arrows were the only way to go.

HELLO THE CAMPFIRE:
I just need to put my two cents in
First: no one firearm is perfect for all situations.
A .22 is great and would be one I would strongly consider.
A shot gun may be better overall that a rifle.
A centerfire rifle would provide better "protection" than a handgun or .22.

The mission needs to be defined.
In a dooms day situation amunition avalibility must be considered.
Most Center fire amounition can be reloaded very simlpy. A .22 can not.
The firearm should be as simple as possable as the simpler it is the less likely it is to break, and repair might not be possible.

For general use in that situation I would choose something like one of the H&R combos with a light centerfire on the top and a 20 ga. on the bottom. It is about as simple as can be.
If I needed something heaver as in a "fighting situation, I would go with an 03 ro 03a3. Simple, reliable, accurate, Iron sights so no worry about knocking it around. Ammo Simple to reload. Cast bullets OK.. Powder you can come by or make Black powder in a pinch. Plenty of ammo floating around. The trick would be primers. Lay in a big supply of Large rifle primers.
I would go with a bolt action as it is not as particular as to what it shoots and don't need as much cleaning.
A 12 or 20 Ga. shot gun could fill the gaps. Here again a single shot or twice shooter would be simple, and would fed the family. Not so good in a fire fight.
A nice alternitive would be a 1911 with one ofo the .22 conversion kits. This give you an easely concealable firearm. With enough fire power for protectio, but the ability to use .22 for small game.
Bottom line, if I had to leave with ONE firearm to use for everything, it would be my Remington 1903a3 in 3006. Second gum a shot gun, even my wife can use a shot gun. Third gun a .22.
Forth what ever I can grab on the way out.
As to amunition, 1000 rounds of any thing is a plenty. I do not expect to get into a sustained firefight with armed forces. If I do, I will Sgt. York them as long as I can and fade away.
I know I am a better shot than the spray and pray guys we have now.
Judge Sharpe

The basis for my choice above also was founded upon a scene of long-term survival, not daily or frequent fire-fights. Obviously my AR15 would be the #1 choice if it seemed likely that alot of skirmishes were anticipated. I'm not a huge fan of the .223, but again, weight and the ability to carry/availability of ammo is the name of the game. My very close second choice would be my AR15 in 7.62x39, a round I much prefer to the .223 round in the type of rifle.

My plan of action has always been to lay low, stay far from the urban areas and trouble and to sustain myself and wife the best we can. If trouble arrives to our remote camp then we'll deal with it. I have only a handful of neighbors (each is about 1/4 mile or more away so things are very spread out here), but we would organize and work together to get through things.

I'd much prefer a 3-gun battery and that would be my matching Rugers (a stainless M77/22 and a stainless M77/MkII in 30-06) plus my AR15 in .223... With that battery I'd be well equipped indeed.

Judge Sharpe,

A shotgun could be a real lifesaver in a survival situation. Especially in an up close and personal urban shootout type situation. Preferably one of the sawed off, repeating variety. That is something that I certianly wouldnt want to be on the recieving end of.

I could also see the value of a centerfire handgun for such times, cast reloadable, low powder consumption and never too cumbersome or heavy to be out of reach.

One other weapon that could possibly be of great value that Ive not seen mentioned is a crossbow, in desperate times the missles could be fashioned out of very simple items.

JudgeSharpe, It is difficult to argue that no one firearm is ideal, as nothing is perfect. However I firmly feel that a .22lr or .22Mag rifle come fairly close, in a "doomsday" situation, due to the problems of ammo and weight. While you can certainly reload, we (the Army) studied this very subect quite closely, and while loaded ammo will store almost indefinately, primers will degrade over time, due to the hygroscopic nature of the priming compound, and propellents are the same.
With the amount of cheap, reliable centrefire ammo out there, it may be a better idea to simply cache what you think you will need.
having said that, I have 1000 of each large and small CF rifle primers stashed away, inside ziplock bags with silica gel to try to limit the damage due to moisture. I will not rely on these, they are simply there as a "nice to have" part of the cache. Along with 10,000 rds of .22lr. Not that I expect to use 10,000 rds, but it may come in handy as trade goods?
Your choice of firearms is excellent, well reasoned, except for the bulk and weight of the ammo required (I am guessing you plan on using a car?), it's going to be tough to haul that lot around on foot. Shotguns are great, you can take almost anything with them, but ammo is very bulky. Not so bad in a cache, but I would not want to try to walk too far with 500rds of 12, or even 20g.
Just the same, I have 1000 rds of each stashed away. I like your choice of guns, but personally prefer the Savage 24 series, with the choice of rifle or shotgun in the one firearm, no messing about changing BBLs. Grabbed one in 223/12g, and another, the old style 24C 'camper' version in 22lr/20g. Great guns, not much good in a fight, but for foraging or simply as a 'walking around' gun, they are hard to beat. Inexpensive too. Just make sure you have a couple of spare shotgun (lower BBL) firing pins and rebound springs for them, they seem to be the only parts that break.
Difficult to argue with you about the centrefire rifle (especially when you consider I plan on taking a 308 Steyr scout rifle) except to say ammo is heavy. That's why the reloading gear, and most of the ammo is already in the cache.
As I have said before, I would prefer to sneak around problems rather than get my family involved in a gunfight. I see our plans are similar if pushed into a fight, engage the bad guys using the ballistic advantage of the 30 cal, over the 'spray and pray types', until our families are safely out of harms way, then fade away ourselves.
To me, it seems the only reasonable plan, how does anyone else feel about it?

Cheers, Dave.
Non Illegitium Carborundum

Well people, I have to admit after re-reading Mel Tappan again, and thinking about what JudgeSharpe, N E 450 No2 and jimmyd223 have posted, I have got to thinking about the self loader problem we have here in OZ (i.e, we can't have them!). Some of the situations you guys have mentioned involve sitting tight and waiting for the police to restore order.
I can see where a nice, reliable self loading 223 or 308 might come in handy.
Problem is we can't legally own one, here in OZ.
Does anyone have any experience with the pump action 'patrol rifles' that Remington are selling? if they are any good, they might just be the next best thing?
Please note, this is the 'sit tight and wait for the cops' rifle, not the 'fade away into the hills' rifle. For that, I would still take a .22.
Any comments?

Cheers, Dave.
Non Illegitium Carborundum

People will invariably wait until the last minute to do anything. The most important weapon is to have a plan that can be implemented immediately. I have only just started thinking about a SHTF scenario recently. In fact I have just had to eat some crow recently about teasing some of my friends about being survivalists. I am now a beleiver in being ready for riots and civil unrest. No insults meant, but if a hurricane(We saw it comming) caused most of the the police department to collapse in N.O., then I just don't expect it to be much better in a biological attack where thousands are killed instead of a few hundred. Panic and pandemonium would rule the day most likely.

I don't like the esthetics, but AR 15's seem to be about the best compromise for my area and situation. I also don't understand why you couldn't take a light 22 and a couple extra 1000 rounds for it. I'd rather carry extra 223 rounds than a pistol. I beleive that is more efficient.

If you can, take the following:
375 H&H, 30-06, 308, AK 308 X39, 223, and 22lr.

Along with: 50 bmg, 308 MACHINE GUN, 120 mm tank...

gs

The first consideration out here in the people's republick of Caleefornicate is pick the one that they don't have any record of. Given that, I'll take one of my -06's M700 w/ scope, not the M1- I'd rather snipe than fire-fight and I have enough components to reload for about 10 years of regular use- should be long enough to restore order

quote:

Originally posted by GS:
If you can, take the following:
375 H&H, 30-06, 308, AK 308 X39, 223, and 22lr.

Along with: 50 bmg, 308 MACHINE GUN, 120 mm tank...

gs

If the SHTF, ,mind a bit of company?

gs

Only if you promise to carry all the ammo for the 120mm.......

Cheers, Dave.
Non Illegitium Carborundum

hecked out one of the Remington 7615 223 rem pumps. They seem solid enough, but i theink the wife may have trouble with the action(small woman, short arms!) Anyone got any ideas for a small centrefire, primarily for use as a 'batten down the hatches and wait for the cops to get things under control again' gun. Since we wouldn't be hiking of into the sunset, etc, I thought perhaps a smallbore shotgun? Say a 20g or similar?

Cheers, Dave.
Non Illegitium Carborundum