I only know of David Miller by reputation as one of the premier rifle makers in America. I would be very surprised if the facts he stated in that forum weren't correct. He would have absolutely nothing to gain by stretching the facts. With his reputation, he doesn't need to. I vote on David Miller's side of the facts.

It is difficult to believe a person of such stature would risk reputation and livelihood for simple gratification. Miller is not related to Bill Clinton, is he?

I hear Boone and Crockett is preparing a statement now, that they are going to publish. I would think that if they are taking the time to do such a thing, then their interpretation of the facts, are considerably different than Miller's. Guess we'll see, but I've always looked at a situation such as this and tried to decide on which side of the dispute would have a reason to lie!!!!

carpman

[ 06-17-2003, 18:26: Message edited by: carpman ]

It seems like too many of these high profile guys cheat a little. Remember Kurt Darner? I applaud B&C for their integrity, or at least their effort.

Kinda funny how the story goes when one feels his side is all that will be heard!!!!!! This came off the Boone and Crockett website today.

B&C Issues Statement Regarding David Miller
June 19, 2003
By B&C Headquarters
Missoula, MT
The Boone and Crockett Club recently released the following statement in response to David Miller�s comments regarding his Coues� whitetail trophy entries posted on several message boards on the Internet:

Boone and Crockett Club�s Response to the David Miller Issue

The Boone and Crockett Club maintains the records of native North American big game as a vital conservation record in assessing the success of wildlife management programs and to reinforce the need for hunting ethics. Just as important, today the Club�s records program represents the outstanding success stories of modern game management and conservation that have restored our game populations to healthy levels that can be utilized in consumptive uses such as hunting, as well as the enjoyment of watching these magnificent creatures in the wild. The Club�s North American Big Game Records program is a vital aspect of the Club�s leadership in influencing the direction and the vision of America's conservation policy and leadership for more than 116 years.

The Boone and Crockett Club published its first big-game records book, titled Records of North American Big Game in 1932. The current Boone and Crockett North American Big Game scoring system is the result of thousands of hours spent by Club members, official measurers, scientists, wildlife professionals and others over a 70-year period refining and improving the system. Over this period of time the Boone and Crockett system has become the benchmark for scoring our native North American big game animals and has been emulated by other systems, each with their own merits. The decision as to which scoring system best fits the needs of hunters who choose to enter their big game animals is left up to the hunter.

The integrity of the records program is vital to its success, therefore, each trophy submitted to the Club for entry is reviewed for accuracy and compliance with the entry affidavit and fair chase statement. From time to time we find entries with irregularities. These trophies are reviewed in more depth. We occasionally have information forwarded to the Club that results in additional reviews for selected trophies. Often this is the case when new information is discovered related to a particular trophy after it has been altered. Examples of trophy tampering include the removal of abnormal points from typical racks to increase a trophy�s score and/or the addition of antler or horn material. If any points are removed from antlers of any trophy by breaking or sawing them off, that trophy is not eligible for entry in the Awards Programs and/or records books. Moderation of horns by adding to horn length, splitting skulls to increase spread or artificially increasing circumference measurements are also grounds for disqualification of a trophy.

David Miller has a long history with the Boone and Crockett Club�s North American Big Game Awards Program and has entered his Coues� deer trophies over many years. As a former Lifetime Boone and Crockett Associate and trophy owner, David is well-known to Club members and associates, especially those who are interested in Coues� deer. Finally, David is very familiar with the requirements of the Club�s scoring system and the Club�s expectations regarding the integrity of the Club�s Awards Programs.

When the Club received information that questioned the integrity of one of David�s trophies we followed our normal procedures of contacting the trophy owner and requesting information about the trophy that would address the allegation(s). Once it was confirmed that a point had been removed from his trophy, whether intentionally or inadvertently after it was shot, the Records Committee had no option but to remove that trophy from the Awards Programs and drop it from listing in future records books. Simply put, this trophy was not eligible for continued listing in future records books.

The Records Committee could have removed all of David�s trophies based on the removal of the trophy mentioned above, but it gave David the benefit of the doubt. Rather than removing all of David�s trophies, the committee gave David the option to have his other trophies x-rayed at his convenience and location at the Club�s expense to see if there were any irregularities with his other trophies as alleged. This examination of his trophies would have provided conclusive facts. Faced with this offer, David chose to withdraw his trophies from the Awards Program.

The Boone and Crockett Club is disappointed that David Miller has chosen to go public with the issues related to his trophies. It is our policy to keep these investigations and subsequent actions private, between the Club and the individual. The Boone and Crockett Club has no motivation to go out of its way to criticize anyone, even if it has hard evidence that someone is trying to denigrate the integrity of the records book. Publishing information such as this gives all hunters a bad rap in the eyes of the anti-hunters as well as the non-hunters. The entry affidavit, which the hunter signs states that if the information provided on the entry is found to be misrepresented or fraudulent in any respect, it will not be accepted into the Awards Program, all of the trophy owner�s prior entries are subject to deletion from future editions of Records of North American Big Game and future entries from this individual will not be accepted."

Individuals who are interested in the Club�s records program, entry requirements, fair chase statement, entry affidavit, etc. are encouraged to refer to www.boone-crockett.org.

Individuals with specific questions about this case are encouraged to contact the Club directly at: bcclub@boone-crockett.org.

I'm not at all surprised at the outcome of this situation and my take on the subject is the guilty dog barks the loudest...

I had been told that some of this stuff was going on some years ago by a very good friend of his, but it was only hear say then, apparantly it had substance, and the fact that he will not allow an X-ray pretty well settles the matter in my mind...

I applaud the B&C for their heads up approach to this affair, this stuff is nothing new and a lot of so called famous individual have been caught with their hands in the cookie jar....When one has an ego it can be his worst enemy...

If you can't do the time, then don't do the crime, David....

That is the trouble with all of these Trophy Books and Awards. Normal people do things they would not usually do in order to satisfy their egos.

Remember Kurt Darner?

I see all these reference about remember Kurt Darner.
I have seen them for years.
What is the evidence that he did anything wrong?
Not interested in the rumours and heresay, was there any real evidence or conviction for anything?
Just curious I have never seen anything official on his issues.

I am always surprised by how quick people are to
jump on the rumour mill to slam other people they don't know and know nothing about.
It is not surprising to me that David Miller would not allow the X-rays, at this point it is the principle of the thing to him I am sure. In no way does that automatically mean he did anything wrong. Maybe he did maybe he didn't, none of us here have enough solid information to judge him.

rukidmne,

Proof that he did nothing wrong!!!!! Read the statement. They had enough proof to "Remove" the head in question, and gave him the chance to address the other allegations of tampering, and he chose not to. That's a hell of a way to clear his "good" name!

carpman

Carpman,
I guess I just like to give folks the benefit of the doubt. I read Millers statement of the events and am inclined to believe it to some extent. It does not appear that he had any intent to lie about the broken point.
I am not taking either side at this point, like I said I do not have enough clear information to go either way.
Certainly an unfortunate situation for both parties.

rukidmne,

Dang that name is hard to type! haha.

yes it does appear in Miller's statement that he had no intent to lie about the broken point, but it obviously was a different story to Boone and Crockett. I guess you must then weight the facts, and decide for yourself, who had a reason to lie. Miller or Boone and Crockett.

carpman

I could be wrong but I had the impression that you Americans had this quaint little custom about 'innocent till proven guilty'?

Rukidnme: Are you kidding me? Are you defending kurt darner? In my opinion his actions were that of an ego mad, poor sport and he was a caught! Thankfully so! Everyone involved in Hunting that I know and respect concluded that he brought dishonor to an honorable undertaking (Sport Hunting). Did he not?
Please restate your position on kurt darner - are you defending him or not?
My advice to you though is to not let anyone stay with the impression you are defending him especially on a public forum like this!
For Christs sake man kurt darner is not even defending kurt darner!
I used several of the pages of his book to wipe my ass with! It wasn't even satisfactory for that!I had to burn it.
I am not defending kurt darner - r u?!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

Carpman,

I'm not sure we have to decide who lied. I would say nobody did. I don't think that is the issue here.
I think keeping the one head in question out of the book was fair enough.
I think the problem begins when B&C took the next step and put all of the other heads he has in the book into question. That is attacking the mans personal entegrity.
At this point it appears David Miller got mad when his integrity was put into question and refused the x-rays on his other heads, I can understand why he would do that, I imagine he felt unfairly prosecuted when asked to submit to this investigation by the B&C club and took the screw them approach. Which is to bad because both sides lose. All being grown men there was certainly room for compromise if both sides had remained reasonable and the hard line was not taken by both sides.
I believe Miller felt he dealt with them in best faith on the head in question and there should have been no move on their part to take this to the next level by putting his overall integrity into question which is what they appear to be doing.
On the B&C side I imagine they were of the opinion that if they gave him a break they would have to give everybody a break in situations like this so chose to follow their rule to the letter.
Again just my opinion, I don't feel strongly either way, as I stated before I am just surprised by how many people are ready to jump on the accusing bandwagon.

Varmint guy,
Take a breath.
As I stated I am just curious. I see lots of people slamming Darner, I don't know why. I think it has something to do with mule deer and the B&C book.
I have no knowledge of what he is accused of or was convicted of. You seem to be well versed,
what is the short version of what he did? That is all I was asking.
Again please spare me the rumours and heresay.
Certainly agree there are some headline hungry folks out there who get carried away with getting their name in the record book.
For instance that writer videographer who got busted hunting in Yellowstone Park a few years ago.
Now that is real evidence, he was definitely a crook/poacher. Sorry can't remember his name.

Rukidnme: Then following your line of thinking o.j. simpson is innocent and still actively looking for the real killer and should be held in high esteem by society! Are you now saying that you and everyone else has the obligation to defend scoundrels unless someone comes to your computer and presents evidence to you that convinces you personally that unethical or illegal behavior has occurred by the scoundrel in question?
I will repeat in case you are intent upon being contrary - kirt darner is not even defending himself!!! Do you wish to profess he is an ethical Hunter until someone goes through the time and trouble of prosecuting him on your computer?
Well if thats anywhere near reasonable then I ask you to defend him as an honaorable Hunter! Come on my computer and present evidence and convince me!
I did not think so!
The poor canadian above is aso trying to be contrary to reality! Our Constitution guarantees that a person can not be punished (for a crime) BY THE GOVERNMENT - until found guilty in a prosecution! It does not mean that an immoral or unethical person (even one found innocent in a criminal court - o.j.?) can not be denounced by his neighbors and fellow citizens until AFTER a trial AND conviction! Following that short sighted line of reasoning then o.j. should be allowed to date your daughter without any concern whatsoever! Ludicrous that contention!
I just checked my latest copy of the Boone & Crockett Records of North American Big Game - I happily did not see kirt darners name in there any longer! I was happy to see Doug Burris, Herb Klein and Elgin Gates names listed though! Along with my name! I am proud of my accomplishment and making it into the Boone & Crockett all time records and I resent anyone that would cheat to get into this esteemed record book and anyone that would defend unethical Hunting practices.
By the way - I will breathe at whatever pace I choose! You have nothing to do whatsoever with any choice I make!
I ask you once more are you defending kirt darner?
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

Varmint Guy,

quote:

---

The poor canadian above is aso trying to be contrary to reality!

---

Not at all. What I was referring to is that at this point, it is still conjecture. Until I have more information I am not willing to condemn David Miller yet. By the way, I always thought that that principle you have down there was a pretty good one.

Varmint guy,
I don't know how my request for information took you to where you ended up.
Nice rant though, like you got your bit about how your name is in the book in there.
Personally I don't see the need for a record book.
The book is supposed to honor the animal not the hunter. Well I guess if that were true we wouldn't need to put the hunters name in with the animal, which come to think of it would probably be a good idea.

Part of the problem is that David Miller has used his trophy hunting prowness as a means of promoting himself and his rifles. To me that changes the equation a little bit. Entering a rack with a point removed (regardless of how it happened) by someone as concerned with B&C as Miller is no more an accident than a professional baseball player claiming he couldn't tell the bat he picked up weighed 2 oz. less than normal because it was his "practice" bat and was filled with cork.

Jeff

Skibum, While I stated before that I am not willing to condemn David Miller yet, I am puzzled as to why he would even attempt to enter this specimen knowing the rules as he does. It wouldn't seem logical to try and 'slide' one through.

rukidnme,

Boone and Crockett was only following "Policy" when they requested to have the others x-rayed as they had other allegations concerning them. I don't see how B&C questioned Miller's integrity. It looks to me that they were willing to go against there normal procedure and give him the benifit of the doubt. Miller's integrity was already in question anyways, as he knew the rules.

carpman

Ruakid?: The book and the Boone & Crockett Club is first and foremost a conservation tool and organization. It keeps permanent records of trends and numbers of very healthy Big Game animals and where they lived! I consider it one of the greatest honors I have received to be listed in the all time records. Nothing you say can or will diminish that fact!
Call it a rant if you want I am calling you a contrary and and shit stirrer and a defender of the undefendable!
I will ask you once again - are you defending kirt darner as an honorable sportsman/Hunter even when he will not defend himself? Or are you to cowardly to again answer a straight out question. There are only two possible answers, coward - yes or no! I am brave enough to tell you "no" I am not defending kirt darner!
Again I ask - whats YOUR answer?
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

skibum, savage, carpman, all good points.
As all these points are brought up it gets easier to see what a complicated issue this can be and the different points of view people take.
Like I said before I tend to give people the benefit of the doubt. I think Sosa is probably telling the truth also.
I have enjoyed reading lots of stories on David Millers hunts and the efforts he has put in to put all those animals in the book. I have no reason to believe he is not an honorable guy so I give him the benefit of the doubt also. As I said before I think he went to far as seems this could have been worked out by both parties to a better solution. I don't disagree B&C was following their rules but feel they went a little to far on this one. I am not going to lose any sleep about it either way.
OH yeah, varmint guy you need to lay off the caffiene, you are one angry dude!

Who in hell is Kurt Darner? What did he do? I'm ignorant......

No judgement on D. Miller's case, I see both sides to a point. Mean Mr. Miller no ill will but if this drops the price of his iron down a bit I'm okay with that. Started to order one when they were around 5k but didn't...

Kurt Darner bought a set of Mule Deer horns in Arizona and entered them as ones that he shot in Colorado. This is a fact as the horns were identified by the seller and the hunter with pictures etc. Darner admitted it.

As is their 'Normal Practice' B & C decided to recheck all of Darner's entries. He then withdrew 5 more deer and left 4 or 5. B & C then decided or Darner decided that he and B & C were not meant to be and he withdrew or they threw out the rest of his entries.

As a sidelight. Darner was convicted for attempted poaching and shooting from a vehicle in Colarado a couple of years ago. He was guiding an Elk Hunter from, I believe, Mississippi and he spotted a big 6x on the side of the road. He turned his truck around and went back where his client put his rifle out the window and fired at the Elk, some hundred yards away. The Elk did not fall to the first shot so he fired a couple of more times.

As it turns out the Elk was stuffed and the whole incident was viewed and filmed by a couple of Game Cops. When they made their appearance Kurt drove off and was stopped down the road at a road block. He claimed that he knew it was a Game plant and was not aware that his client had loaded his rifle and put it out the window to shoot.

I believe he now lives in Arizona somewhere.

It's not an issue, Miller got caught with his hand in the cookie jar, and it's about time...Several folks in the hunting world have known about his practices for sometime and it was almost common knowledge according to some...and I believe some of the other heads were also tainted...If this is not so then have them X-rayed, and clear his "good name", uh huh!

Like the man said, OJ never hurt anyone, and I can't prove that either but I know damn well who is right and wrong in both cases...and if a point is removed to obliterate a minus point then the owner of the head has to know it was done and Miller of all people knows the rules, plain and simple, the smoking gun, and anyone that will do it once will do it twice or more times.

If anyone cannot see through this, then they are naieve beyond description, or just plain argumentive...

Savage from Canada,
In the USA the burden of proof for a crime becomes less as the crime becomes a lower crime therefore it does not take a lot of proof on a misnomer and even less for a shyster who fakes a deer head!

GrandView,

Did it ever occur to you that B&C didn't offer Darner and Feather the opportunity to have their heads x-rayed because their heads weren't alledged to have been tampered with? Darner bought one and claimed to have killed it. Feather was caught poaching one. I think you should go back and read the statement again.

I saw on another board where someone asked you how many of Miller's rifles you owned and you said "none".

I would have said the same thing.

carpman

GrandView,

Good God man, read the statement. They gave him the benefit of the doubt about his other trophys and asked that they be x-rayed because of other allegations. That means they had other info on other heads. Jezz

Since you're so good at coping and pasting quotes, why not paste the quote here where B&C requested the x-rays and lets see if there is anything there about other alledged tampering with his other heads.

And if you don't have a Miller rifle, you should give him a call, I bet you can buy one cheap about now!

carpman

[ 06-21-2003, 05:39: Message edited by: carpman ]

GrandView

I don't know about you, but I'm somewhat enjoying our debate! I see it one way, and you see it another. I know I won't convince you and vice- versa, but it's still fun.

You still only see what you obviously want to see. You didn't comment on the other alleged allegations on his other heads that B&C stated promted their demand that they be x-rayed. Do you honestly think that Boone and Crockett would ask this of him because they wanted to smear his name? Hell no, they even go on to state that this was not their intention.

I also don't see the larger circle of people you spoke of that requires more proof than an unprecidented public anouncement from Boone and Crockett which to my knowledge has never happened before. Not even in the Darner or Feather cases.

I suppose you also believed Clinton when he said "I didn't have sex with that woman" haha

carpman

[ 06-21-2003, 07:18: Message edited by: carpman ]

Who gives a shit what Miller did,Boone and Crockett is nothing but a fucking money making joke anyway. Boone and crockett states all kinds of ways that heads are tampered with. Yet these problems are easily removed by not allowing mounted heads to be scored and the most simple of tests can detect tampering. A sewing needle and a match,heat the needle red hot and apply it to the antlers in question,resins melt horn doesn't,even if they use antler to extend antler,there is still a joint. BandC loves to cause contreversy for extra publicity. As long as the owner is paying to enter a trophy,they should all be subjected to x ray,if you don't like to fuckin' bad,enter it in some other cheese dick book like sci.

If the truth were known,half the shit entered in B and C wasn't killed where it supposedly was and fair chase is something that happens occasionally. B and C falls right in there with Magazines like Eastmans and Trophy hunter,full of fairy tales and since the pages are laminated plastic,you can't even wipe your ass with it.

irakid2: I thought you would chicken out and not answer the simple and direct question.
Perhaps you should lay off the coffee! You know nothing about a sad and regrettable man and a sadder situation he made for himself and yet you cast aspersions on those that do know of his misdeeds and their consequences! His conduct brought disdain to many people who are and are trying to be honorable Hunters and Trophy Hunters!
Hmm... yeah for starters stop the caffeine and ease off with the mouth in regards to situations and things you do not know anything about or cannot defend with your personal knowledge!
And to prove I am a good sport I will give you one more chance to defend or decry kirt darners behavior in front of all who saw your initial ambiguous assertion regarding him! YES or NO! Seems so simple even a kid should be able to understand that
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy