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Heh Heh.... VarmintGuy, you are truly laughable. I suggest you go back and re-read the posts by Rukidnme......and then your responses. You're heading off into Never-Never Land.... GV | |||
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Ray, quote:Not to dispute you Ray. The only information I had was that article. That and the fact that I only Know of him by reputation as a riflemaker. In Canada, David Miller is perceived to be the cream of the crop, but we only get so much information up here about your guys down there. That's why I was willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. Obviously, you know about him a lot better than I do. That's OK, I wanted to believe Pete Rose was innocent too. ![[Smile]](images/icons/smile.gif){kind=icon} | |||
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GrandView, You state "Just what are the allegations? What is the evidence that they may be tampered trophy's? I guess Boone and Crockett just made those allegations up themselves! They are obviously just trying to smear Miller and to what benefit that would be to them, I guess you know that also. I guess offering to clear up the allegations with the x-ray (which if no tampering was there would have ended that)was only a ploy, as they also had that fixed so that it would show what they wanted it to show. Now I understand you. This is a conspiracy to destroy Miller. Damn, I can't believe I didn't see it until now....... I simply can't see your inability to understand the statement. They had an allegation that the other heads had been tampered with. SIMPLE! Not telling you what the allegation was or who made it doesn't mean that it didn't exsist. If it didn't exsist, then they wouldn't have put it in a public statement. Unlike Miller, they had nothing to lie about. carpman | |||
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quote:Let me take your tact then...... Can I make an anonymous call to Boone and Crockett and allege that a particular trophy has been altered and initiate a Boone and Crockett investigation of the trophy? Is that how it works? GV | |||
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Hell yes you can, how do you think any investigation is started. If I suspect you're a drug runner, I go to the cops and give them my reasons for thinking this is so. If they feel that the information is credible enough to warrent an investigation then they will begin one. Surely you aren't naive enough to think otherwise. What makes you think that the source of the info was anonomous? Miller called him an unnamed source. Was that because he doesn't know or he doesn't need that guy out revealing the base of the investigation. And if he doesn't know, what makes you think Boone and Crockett doesn't know? I don't see anything that would cause me to believe that the source was anonomous. carpman [ 06-21-2003, 17:33: Message edited by: carpman ] | |||
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Well, everyone is "thinking" or "feeling", so I did some "doing". Miller's head in question supposedly had the extra point broken off by a guide sawing the antlers out of the skull. I got a couple of antlers that I use for rattling, and a couple racks on skull plates that aren't mounted. I banged all around on them with a hacksaw. Nothing. A scratch here & then, but nothing broke. Then I proceeded to bang them on the concrete garage floor. Tried all different sides and angles. Again, I scuffed them up a bit, but no broken points. I just find it hard to believe that the point was somehow "innocently" broken off while the skull plate was being sawn out.... | |||
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GrandView, I see it like this. If David Miller did nothing wrong and Boone and Crockett was just on a witch hunt, then due to the overwhelming damage that this has and will cause his business, he would be intitled to sue them for slander and loss of business. Do you think that the Boone and Crockett attorneys would have let such a thing slip their minds, or do you think that they may have spent some time discussing this before they issued a public statement. I think and hope you're a man of some intelligence, and would understand my point. Due to the sue happy world we now live in, Boone and Crockett, after investigating the facts, found hard evidence and made a ruling against him. He proceeds to stomp his feet, suck on his thumb and slings crude and rude remarks on a public internet site against them, thinking they would follow suit and stay private on their stance. Too bad Miller forgot that the internet was not around when the other people mentioned in this thread were caught, so any statements they may have made at the times of their demises were going to stay isolated. This was not the case with Miller and is why they went public on him. It was nothing more than a complete retaliation to his defaming statement. Whether they come forward with the hard evidence as you so desperately need, is totally up to them, but I would guess that Miller wouldn't particuraly want that to happen. Walt | |||
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ramhunter40... Your post is so full of conjecture and supposition it hardly merits a response. GV | |||
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Hold on a second everyone...Aren't a lot of you missing the point? David Miller is not a trophy hunter at all. He is a sniper. Anyone who takes such long shots at an animal is not a hunter in the true sense of the word. We need to draw a line when it comes to these types of people. Just because you "can" do something is not justification to carry it out. Obviously having an animal in "the book" means nothing to this guy if he isn't willing to do anything and everything that the judges/governing body want in order to qualify the animal for the book. It is sad to see that even the hallowed pages of Boone and Crockett have lost some of their prestige. | |||
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Generally I keep my yap shut in circumstances like this, but I think murftj is taking a dangerous stance. Whether I agree with long range hunting or not, to claim that it isn't a sport because it might not follow another's standards is truly thin ice for all involved. It is still the culling of the herd, and hunting by definition is to engage in the pursuit of game. There is no prerequisite that maintains the hunter must be within x feet or x yards or using x to kill the game animal. Don't get me wrong, I respect your personal feelings in this matter. I just hold that it is just that: your personal feelings. Please don't take this as an attack. It isn't meant as one. Merely try to keep in mind that regardless of how we do it, it is what we do that makes us unified. It's WAY too easy for derision to divide us, and we as hunters in America cannot afford to have any less unity, considering the number of fronts we have to maintain as it is. | |||
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I kinda got to hang with Cold Bore. Deer antler is pretty tough stuff. I've hung some 300+ deer up by their antlers (and not too big antlers at that) and never had one break. I am not passing judgement on David Miller. I do not know him nor of him but the B&C has rules in place and they are well published. If the rules were broken either by design or accident, the rules were broken. The rest is cut and dried. Whether by accident or design, I don't think I'd go on the internet with a rant about B&C singling him out for a witch hunt. | |||
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grandview: I could care less what you think! I HAD read his posting several times before your smug and impertinent suggestion and I asked him to defend his aspersions or defend kirt darner! He won't, you won't, so stay where you are in somewhere somewhere land and let the folks who know what they are talking about, and have information on which to base our opinions on kirt darner, to offer them free of your style silliness. So grandview make a grand gesture and defend or decry kirt darner based on your knowledge of him and his situation - or shut up about something which you have no knowlegde. Maybe I am making things to simple for you contraries? Hold into the wind VarmintGuy PS: To ruakidstl - I am still waiting patiently for a response from you regarding kirt darner! Defend him, decry him or shut up about something you know nothing about and do not cast aspersions on those who do have knowledge of his situation. I am asking you for the last time - politely! | |||
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quote:He asked for information............he didn't make ANY comments about Darner. Your reading comprehension needs work. Badly.... quote:You've had your say. Unsolicited, but you've had it. Your sophomoric demand for a retraction of an opinion never expressed is getting tiresome. quote:You're making it rather easy. I'm becoming a fan of Darner as I read this. Is that gesture grand enough for you? Twit... quote:Im betting not.... GV | |||
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GrandView, I'm glad you finally see the light and can't argue with my statement. Walt | |||
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quote:Your statement covers no new ground. It's the same speculation that has filled these threads since they began. Like the B&C public statement.........it fills space but provides no substance or proof. GV | |||
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quote:I SURE HOPE NOT !!!! ![[Eek!]](images/icons/shocked.gif){kind=icon} Here is my opinion . I believe Mr. Miller for several reasons , but one is because the deer would have made the book even with the abnormal point so there was no reason to remove the point and another is because Mr. Miller addressed the situation very quickly in 93 with an apology and explaination letter. Also if you know Mr.Miller you would know that he doesn't put up with bullsh*t. THIS IS PART OF MR.MILLERS STATEMENT. there are always some people who do not know you but dislike you and your accomplishments just the same. These people for their own selfish reasons and motives try to disparage you and smear your good name. I have never wasted my time with these people. What did happen was that I was sent a letter from the Boone & Crockett Club, which questioned the statements that I had made in a 1993 magazine article, authored by me. The B&C accusations were that I had forgotten several huge deer that I had shot prior to the magazine article being written. I did not accidentally or stupidly forget these deer; my reasons for not mentioning these deer were simply that the Boone & Crockett Club had not officially accepted them at the time the article was written. My policy has always been not to talk or write about trophies I have taken until the trophies have been officially accepted and entered into the Boone & Crockett Record book. In the same letter B&C questioned two photographs of my 1992 114 5/8 typical coues... In response to these questions I submitted a letter to the Boone & Crockett Club supported with evidence in the form of a 1993 apology and explanation letter from Outfitter Roberto Campillo as well as a 2002 affidavit from United States citizen, Al Aguirre explaining how the abnormal point on the coues deer's right antler accidentally broke off. To date I have not recieved an official response to my letter from Boone & Crockett. Nonetheless, I became the center of a controversy due to unsubstantiated rumors from the Boone & Crockett club about the 114 5/8 Typical I shot in Sonora, Mexico on November 14, 1992. The questions were a result of two different photographs of the same deer. The first was a field photograph taken by Roberto Campillo proudly displayed in his hunting brochure which showed me and my 114 5/8 Typical Coues with an abnormal point between the G1 and G2 on the Coues deer's right antler. The second photograph was the one I took a few days before I submitted the Coues deer for entry into the B&C Book. This second picture showed the Coues deer antler attached to the skullcap but without the abnormal G2 point on the right antler because it had been accidentlally broken off by one of the guides in Mexico. After an animal is taken there is a mandatory 60 day antler drying period required by Boone & Crockett. There after, the mandatory photographs and the antler score sheet required by the Boone & Crockett Clubb must be mailed in. If the pictures were an issue or a concern why didnt the boone & crockett question this matter eleven years ago? Outfitter Roberto Campillo has openly displayed my Coues deer picture for eleven years in his hunting brochure for all to see. At no time was there any attempt to conceal or hide any facts on my part. I resent the insinuation that I tried to hide or pull one over on the Boone & Crockett Club. Suspiciously, the B&C Club appeared at ease for eleven years and then only became interested in my 1992 114 5/8 Typical Coues in 2002 after an unnamed individual for his own selfish reasons and motives tried to disparage me by questioning the pictures. [ 06-23-2003, 10:22: Message edited by: RMiller ] | |||
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quote:Maybe, but it placed HIGHER in the book without the point. A couple of inches can make a big difference in placement/ranking. | |||
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The buck in question had a 5 to 6 inch abnormal point. There is no doubt to this as the picture doesn't lie. If you deduct this from the score prior to breaking it off, there is no way it would have booked. Walt | |||
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Varmint guy, I just asked for information on Darner, you misunderstood what I was saying and started calling me names. I read the posts containing the info about Darner and seems clear to me that the evidence shows he was/is the scoundrel you say he is. Certainly not the same as the current situation with Miller. Remains to be seen how the facts will play out on that one. At present I have seen nothing that convinces me he is guilty of anything at this point. Certainly this is a free country and we are all free to form our own conclusions. I read your other posts on the Montana wolf situation so I am going to give you the benefit of the doubt as well, we have a lot of the same viewpoints on current wolf issues. I will write our disagreement up to the type of miscommunication/misunderstanding which can often occur when trying to communicate in print. As the say the biggest problem with communication is the illusion that it has occurred. So consider this a written handshake. | |||
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Well guys, I've got to side with Cold Bore on this one. A 4"-6" point broken or sawed off accidentily is pure and simple BULLSH_T!!! I have many racks from "basket horned" bucks that I have taken over the years. These racks are very comparable to the Coues deer. Have you ever tried to saw through a small rack to make rattling antlers? It is tough, even if the rack is old! Now, take that same set of antlers and slam, pitch, throw or try to break a point off. It is damned near impossible!!! I think any hunter, that has any experience with deer racks, can discount this story as B.S.!! Just another reason why the record books mean nothing to me! Just my two cents. BOWHUNR | |||
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quote:Yes I think such long shots pose a problem of ethics. I have not formed a definite view on these but the issues should be debated. I am surprised that this aspect of the story has not been given a higher profile. If they haven't yet, B&C should air their views on this. | |||
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Your know what? Everyone of you are obstinate and hard-headed. Nobody is going to persuade anybody else one way or the other. You guys are getting all heated up over BULLSHIT. What you say or what I say ain't going to amount more than a hill of beans. Why don't you guys just let this drop and die off. CAN'T WE JUST GIT ALONG? ![[Roll Eyes]](images/icons/rolleyes.gif){kind=icon} ![[Frown]](images/icons/frown.gif){kind=icon} ![[Razz]](images/icons/tongue.gif){kind=icon} | |||
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Boone and Crockett is a great organization but, it needs to accept some of the blame here. It start's with the offical scorer. When he scored the animal he should have noted that a point had been broken off on the score sheet. Boone and Crockett at that time should have investigated the incident and we would not be here now. Second, the offical scorer should have not scored the animal and sent notification of irregularties of the coues deer antlers to Boone and Crockett. So, who is the fault is it now. David Miller was building great rifles long before his passion for coues deer hunting was known. I believe some of his rifles sold in excess of 100,000 dollars at SCI auctions. Craig Boddington's rifle is worth every bit of $8,000, David Miller built some of the finest rifles out there today. We may have taken this trophy scoring a bit too far and we need to back up to hunt itself. I love to read old books about how fantastic a hunt a person had, not the it made it into some record book. Yes, hunters always try to take the biggest and best animal they can and there is nothing wrong with that but it is the hunt that matters. I am not saying I have never cared about if my animal went into the record book, I did at one time. But, I changed my mind back in the early 90's and the animal that made into the record book was not the one I remembered. It was the one that took me my limits of endurance and hunting ability, it was the one I worked the hardest for. And by far it was not the biggest animal I have ever taken. Yes, I did have it mounted and it is hanging on the wall. I do not want to sound as hypocite but I am going to enter a Sika from New Zealand into SCI and that is because of request of friend who is now guiding for Sambar, Sika and Fallow deer in New Zealand. The Sambar I took on the trip, I will remember most because of the shot I took with my 35 whelen. I do not have to enter an animal into the record books to be proud of trophy I obtained. Think before we start critizing others. | |||
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| <Rogue 6> |
When anyone puts a trophy up for the record book he is going to be looked at very closely. Unfortunatly jelousy is a vicious motivator. If you are accussed of game violations, you are guilty untill proven inocent. Much like accussing somebody of rape. I have a friend who grew up in a broken home way out of town. His family chose to take game illegally. Long since his outlaw days, he has taken many large high scoring animals including columbia blacktail, elk, mule deer, moose and sheep. He has a very tasteful trophy room. He knows that because of his past he really cannot enter any animals without a scandle, so he chooses not to. The only people who see his trophies are friends that know his past, but except him today has a very ethical and successful hunter. | ||
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quote:RMK My sentiments, exactly. I could not have said it any better myself! Except, you left out the National Inquirer Daryl | |||
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I tend to agree with Yukoner and RMK. The entire premise of the scoring system is crap. If it isn't perfectly symetrical then it doesn't count --what a bunch of oats that have already been through the horse. If a rack has something, count it. Let the biggest, knarliest MOFO win and be done with it. I also think it should be a book of what happened THIS YEAR along with the reigning world records. That way all the BS about going back years on a trophy and looking again and waiting years to get one scored and entered would go away. As for David's situation, I think both parties are at fault. B&C should have never taken it to begin with and David, knowing the rules, should have never submitted it. I don't think anyone is playing illegally intentionally and after this much time, David has every right to be pissed. If B&C is truely a "vital conservation record" as they claim to be, then there would be no fees or deductions for point loss. They could make their money from yearly book sales and sell advertising if they needed to. Just my opinion. [ 08-01-2003, 19:55: Message edited by: larrys ] | |||
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| <allen day> |
I'll just say this: I depise and loath "THE BOOK" (you name the flavor) with a passion, and for all sorts of reasons that I'd rather not get into on the internet. It's funny how that mad, overpowering quest to get an animal listed (with the shooter's name right beside it, of course!) in some two-bit book or for some "level of achievement" award has the power to corrupt and destroy, but it does.......it surely does..... as history has demonstrated on more than one occasion. AD | ||
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I have never put anything in the book, here or Africa, don't intend to because it cost money and besides its between me and the animal in my case, I probably should but havn't...BUT to cast despersions on the book is ridiculas... The book keeps a record of where the biggest heads come from during a period of time, it gives a lot of needed information such as what makes these big heads and it does satisfy a lot of needed information. It tells the astute hunters where to seek these massive animals. It also provides a goal for some hunters who are competitive, if you don't like it then just don't do it, but this is the US and others are into shooting book animals and they are true sportsmen with a goal...and certainly rate a lot higher than mouthing off four letter words and condeming all and everything that doesn't agree with your fuddled thinking..... | |||
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quote:Well Ray, I quess you got a point. I'll agree with the keeping of records of where and time period. That's about it. Some of those Record Book animals were killed by thier guide, while that fat fuck hunter that has his name in the book was drink'n and piss'n in his pants back in camp. A hunter shoots a Big ram in the foot. Shoots all his ammo, but one round. His guide takes hunter's rifle and goes after Ram with last bullet and kills it because the hunter is not capable. Whose name goes in the book. There are plenty of hunters that don't know shit from fat meat that have Book animals. I know, I have shot one of them. Daryl | |||
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The book keeps a record of where the biggest heads come from during a period of time, it gives a lot of needed information such as what makes these big heads and it does satisfy a lot of needed information. It tells the astute hunters where to seek these massive animals. Ray I could agree with you on this also except for a couple of big reasons. Number one is the very statement you made about yourself. Lets say you shoot a monster of a bull elk in the Stanley Basin and never put it in the book. How then is such information going to get passed on. Understand, I don't question your reluctance to enter anything at all, I respect your wishes completely. What I am saying though is that by doing this you and others are making this a moot point as to where the largest animals are. Number two is that once something happens and trophies are removed from the book either by the owner or the club it again makes it a moot point as to where the big animals are. For my money the solution to this whole problem is to do what the founding members intended, honor the animal and not the hunter. Simply put down the score of the animal and next to it simply put owner. Doing this would probably keep many people from entering their trophies but so what. It is happening now anyway. As for David Miller someone passed on a statement that really says it all as far as I am concerned. That statement is: "The higher up the flag pole you get, the more your butt sticks out! The more it sticks out, the more some folks want a piece of it!" It's too bad so many want to rush and hang him with so little hard evidence. The fact that B&C messed up by letting that entry in the book at the beginning is their problem as far as I am concerned. All they have accomplished by first allowing it and then changing their mind is that several other Coues Deer trophies are no longer in the book. That "information that could help tell other astute hunters where to seek these massive animals" is no longer there either. | |||
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quote:You shot a guide, client or who? Wally | |||
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